Against the Nids ... help!

[Chazzmos]

Here's a list to consider...it comes in at 1499, but may include models you don't have (i.e. primaris aggressors):

Is there a reason the GH's don't have boltguns? There's no disadvantage to boltgun, bolt pistol, and chainsword right?

[Gherrick]

 

Here's a list to consider...it comes in at 1499, but may include models you don't have (i.e. primaris aggressors):

Is there a reason the GH's don't have boltguns? There's no disadvantage to boltgun, bolt pistol, and chainsword right?

 

I probably got overzealous in cleaning up the list. They should all have CS/BP/BG or special.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Here's a list to consider...it comes in at 1499, but may include models you don't have (i.e. primaris aggressors):

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [83 PL, 1499pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Bjorn the Fell-handed [14 PL, 267pts]: 2. Inspiring Leader, Heavy flamer, Trueclaw, Twin lascannon, Warlord

 

Iron Priest on Bike [6 PL, 100pts]: Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades, Servo-arm, Thunder hammer

. . Bike: Twin boltgun

 

+ Troops +

 

Grey Hunters [8 PL, 108pts]: 4x Chainsword

. . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades, Power axe

. . 3x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

. . Grey Hunter with Special Weapon: Bolt Pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Plasma gun

. . Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Frag & Krak grenades, Storm bolter, Wolf claw

 

Grey Hunters [6 PL, 65pts]

. . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades

. . 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

 

Grey Hunters [6 PL, 65pts]

. . Grey Hunter Pack Leader: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Frag & Krak grenades

. . 4x Grey Hunter w/Bolt Pistol: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades

 

+ Elites +

 

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant

. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

 

Wulfen [13 PL, 231pts]

. . 2x Great frost axe

. . 2x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 2x Storm Shield, 2x Thunder Hammer

. . 4x Wulfen

. . Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Long Fangs [8 PL, 209pts]

. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

. . Long Fang: Bolt pistol, Frag & Krak grenades, Lascannon

. . Long Fang Pack Leader: Chainsword, Frag & Krak grenades

. . . . Boltgun and Bolt Pistol: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

8e is not the edition where a defensive player can win. You need many real threats in the opponent's face ASAP... In the list I included, I'd outflank the wulfen, the better armed GHs, and the aggressors (combat squading them during deployment). Those aggressors are pretty big threats, and having them in outflank means the opponent can get quite the surprise if they try to overwhelm you with an early charge. An 18" range with 6+d6 per model shots (even at S4 AP0) means they will leave a dent in damn near everything. If the opponent doesn't immediately try to wipe them off the board (they'd be a fool not to try), the shots double the next turn if you don't move them. Aggressors aren't that bad in melee either, although I'm not a huge fan of power gauntlets. T5 also means they can shrug off a lot of small arms fire (and even heavier/plasma weapons will wound on 3+ instead of 2+, which can really make a difference).

 

Reading your list, I agree that one of the most important aspects of the game for space wolvesis the aggro management/multiple threats as opposed to the whoever gets first strike.

 

In addition to this, I also use this doctrine: hide first, shoot later.

 

What i mean by this is that I NEVER assume I'm going to get first turn, so I always aim to provide with my opponent as little targets as possible even if it means moving my Long Fangs later. In meantime, as you say, use the Cunning of the Wolf to get multiple threats across to either annoy him, or force him to deal with it instead of your more valuable backline/midfield units which is the real meat of your army (the razorbacks, melta/plasma MSUs, maybe even Blood claws). so first turn, hug the LOS blockers and if there are none, ensure everyone has a cover save first. With many sources of rerolls, hitting on 4+ isn't that painful (although it can be), as long as everyone survives to shoot later, rather than lose your long fangs or tanks in the first turn opponent alpha strike. Maybe not so relevant in against tyranids, but against Flyrants, I've had my long fangs shot off too many times by that bug, and i rather hide them first and make the flyrant waste shooting at a transport.

 

Recently in my game against Guilliman, I took a very balsy tactic by outflankig a Long Fang squad armed with heavy weapons (my schizophrenic 1 Lascannon, 1 Missile, 1 Plasma squad and 3 mooks squad), and successfully annoyed him and forced him to direct 5 units worth of firepower just to remove the Long Fangs. For roughly 150 points of Long Fangs, it was well worth the sacrifice. The long range meant that I didn't deploy within 9", more like 24" depending on getting cover and LOS blocking. At the same time, I outflanked a plasma GH squad as well. somehow managed to survive as he devoted most of his power against the long Fangs, leaving the GH squad free to move and tie up some vehicles later.

 

Nevertheless, your Aggressor outflankers idea intrigues me, I think I'll try it next round, though I think it'll mean sacrificing a Razorback and a little more for it. (just for a minimum 3 squad). On other hand, maybe replace my outflanking Long Fang with about 4 Aggressors which is almost the same points...... more useful if the opponnet has a lot of infantry, but against a mechanized list, the outflanking aggressors won't be so great....

 

..... then again, we're talking about Tyranids in this thread so Aggressors are more relevant. I still like my outflanking Long Fang squad because in the end, you still need to get rid of that Carnifex or Hive Tyrant or any other big bugs the guy may bring, preferably from the back. and if he diverts his horde towards the Long Fangs instead of forward to your lines, that's good enough too.

[Karhedron]

Outflanking Hellblasters also works very well. Their firepower rivals Long Fangs, they can fire on the move and they are more durable. Get a cheap Wolf Lord with Jump Pack and he can drop in next to them on the turn they arrive, allowing them to overcharge in relative safety. If you can get within 15" of a tasty target, that is 20 S8 2D AP-4 shots, rerolling 1s. They will pretty much delete any unit that does not have a good invulnerable save.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Some great advice and thoughts here. I'm going to try a new list using some of these ideas. I agree that I need to take the fight to him, at least in some form.

 

I'm still thinking I need the speedbump though, an unfettered first turn for him will wipe at least 25%-30% of my army if I'm not careful and unless we are playing much too little cover on the board I'm not hiding 2-3 tanks and a dread behind LOS blocking terrain ....

 

I'll post my attempt after a bit more thought ...

 

HDL

[Axilleas]

Ok, so I've enjoyed lurking on this forum for quite some time, but I went ahead and created an account so I could reply to this post. I am also attempting to use the 'MultiQuote' function for the first time, so hopefully it all works.

 

I am both a Space Wolves and a Tyranids player. I am purely casual with my small group of gaming buddies, so my insight is limited to just my own personal experience.

 

That being said, you've been getting some great advice from our fellow Space Wolve's players, so I'm going to focus on your Tyranid opponent.

 

Hive tyrant
Trygon
Malenthrope (HQ)
Broodlord
20 devilgaunts
20 gene stealers
3 hive guard
2 carnoflexes (shooty with 24 shot guns)
2 backfield guys who shoot spore mines (never remember their name)

So ..

Trygon, broodlord, 20 devilgaunts and flyrant in reserve.

He pops his trygon right in front of my left flank, 9” away. 20 devilgaunts and broodlord come with his (2 command points) and flyrant joins them.
Lots of spells giving him fnp.
Then he shoots with his devilgaunts (who actually reroll 1’s if they don’t move ... luckily they had this turn).
60 bs3 s4 shots.
Then he spends 2 more CP and shoots again!
120 shots later 2/3 of my intercessors and all hellblasters are dead. TWC lose 2 wounds.

Hive tyrants (who don’t need line of site) take 4 wounds off razorback with TLLC then the flyrant finished it off with shooting and assault,
The genestealers get 3d6 (choose highest) advance and assault. They move 14” then assault remaining intercessors, finishing them off.

Trygon (who adds 1 to charge roll) gets into combat with TWC and kills all 3 before they can attack back.

...

All this with the fact half his army could fall back and assault same turn ... I couldn’t even trap him in combat.
 

 

So based off what I bolded above, it seems like your opponent was using traits from 3 different hive fleets (Kronos, Jorgunmander & Kraken). Based on the rest of your posts, it sounds like he was really running Kraken, but was using traits from the other two hive fleets (hopefully by mistake). I would be interested to know what his exact list was and what detachments it made up.

 

Kronos allows for rerolls of 1 if they don't move, so if the devilgaunts were Kronos, then the Broodlord would not have been able to join them in the Trygon tunnels (all three units would have had to be Jorgunmander to use the stratagem).

 

Kraken is what allows them to roll 3D6 and choose the highest and it is what allows them to fall back and still assault.

 

Tyranids are already powerful enough without somebody taking advantage of rules they shouldn't be using. I'd double check your opponents list and like somebody else already mentioned, don't hesitate to ask to see how the rule is worded. My friends and I make mistakes all the time because we only partly remember something and just assume it works some way, and we get it wrong.

 

Plus don’t forget all the many psychers get fnp. 20 devilgaunts with fnp and 20 genestealers with 5++ 5+fnp ....

HDL

 

I am assuming then that you guys don't play by match play rules. If you do, then he can only cast Catalyst once (the 5+ fnp spell). Regardless, shooting the genestealers is your best bet to remove them. They will destroy anything they get into contact with. Screening them out with GH and then using AssCan RB to whittle them down is probably a good bet.

 

I have to keep repeating this on the Nids though. Lots of talk about assaults and bubble wrapping ... bubble wrapping doesn’t work against shooting and the Nids gave great shooting.

Let’s do some maths hammer.
Shield dread.
120 shots with devil gaunts which can appear 9” away and shoot 18”. 60 hit. 5+wound do 20 wounds. 3+save so 8 wounds, dread is dead in 1 round of shooting. No need to assault it,

Exocrines shoot 48”. Hits do 1 mortal wound usually but can do 3. If they miss then there is a floating bomb 3” away which will charge and do that damage next round anyway,

Hive guard ... AP -2 str 7 2 shots each. 36” range. No LOS needed. No cover save.

Carnoflexes. 18” range, 24 shots each.

So ... I hear the comments about more boots less claws . Obviously the Nids ate always going to outnumber us, they have lots of cheap troop choices. But What are we saying for SWs now? We have to MSU it? Lots of razors with 5man GH squads with LFs, our flier and Bjorn? Can I have an example army to look at perhaps?

I’m very much struggling to see how LFs with heavy bolters are going to rock it. 15 str 5 shots. It’s not particularly scary is it ... it won’t kill a big bug and against small stuff is gunna kill about 6 or 7.

HDL

 

If he is shooting a Shield Dread with devilgaunts, you are already winning. That is a 240 point unit shooting at your 160 point unit. Even if you lose the Dread, he had to spend 2 CP to do so and his devilgaunts are now exposed to counter shooting, and you will want to counter the devilgaunts immediately. 

 

The Hive guard....are nasty. It's a tough unit to counter, but I think a unit of outflanking LF with HB/PG might be a good idea if the Hive guard can be caught out.

OK, so I've gone away and thought about it ..... Against the Nids

 

With the Nids' ability to fall back and still shoot etc. I don't think assault is going to work.  I need to concentrate on shooting and I need more bodies.

 

So I've come up with this. . . I'm not sure about it at all to be honest, I don't inherently trust our Grey Hunters in this edition, with all the -ap weapons and mortal wounds. 

 

BJORN (tlac hf)

Runepriest

 

5 Grey Hunters pistol, plasma gun

5 Grey Hunters. pistol, plasma gun

5 Grey Hunters, pistol, plasma gun

 

Razorback twin assault cannons

Razorback twin assault cannons

Razorback twin assault cannons

 

5 SM scouts

5 SM scouts

 

5 Longfangs 4 lascannons

5 Longfangs 4 lascannons

 

Blizzdread

 

Idea is to speed bump with the scouts as far forward as possible, put Long Fangs in cover if possible.  Then do I castle and wait for him with Runepriest cover bonus, or do I rumble the mech forward?  I'm thinking just castling up, surviving his death-star-deep-strike with as much shooting from me as possible and then rumble forwards.

 

I'd appreciate views (of any sort) on this ... 

 

HDL 

 

Since you're not using beta rules, the scouts are a good idea. Just be comfortable with the fact that they will die turn one and could allow the Genestealers to slingshot forward when they wipe them (stratagem called Overrun, allows the unit to move like the movement phase after wiping a unit in the fight phase). Otherwise, you have good dakka to focus down key units. I am a fan of adding combi-plasmas to my GH units via wgpl, but that's just my preference. 

 

Someone else suggested turning one of the LF units into a flanking HB/PG unit and, like I mentioned above,  I think it would give you another tactical tool to handle the hidden Hive guard if you can manage it.

 

Also, keep an eye on his Synapse creatures (Hive Tyrant, Malanthrope, Broodlord). If his units are out of synapse, then they are affected by morale. You can decimate the devilgaunts or Genestealers if he over-extends or you can take out an out of position synapse creature (remember, morale happens at the end of the turn). You just have to make sure YOU are tracking the synapse rules, because your opponent may not remember (or choose not to remember).

 

Well, that's about all I can think of for now. Hope this helps against your Nid opponent.

[Gherrick]

I had great success with a 6 man aggressor (combat squaded)  and 10 man hell blaster (also combat squaded) outflanked with an HQ to reroll 1s. Those hellblasters with overcharged weapons is just NUTS. Throw in Njal in the middle to give them all cover, and they can wipe out lots of targets and still stay at a reasonable distance.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Axilleas - Welcome to the Fang.

 

Sigh, your post illustrates why I thoroughly despite mixing different "Chapter tactics" and matching even within the same codex. There is so much potential for error or outright deception if you do that, from mixing wrong "chapter tactics" with different units, to using wrong strategems. And somehow, I doubt that fellow painted his units different colors to illustrate different hive strains.

 

As a tyranid player, I need to ask you: due to the beta rules on tactical reserves, are there still any hidden tactics you have that can enable the 1st turn charge? The only one I can think off is the Swarmlord's ordering a unit to move/advance during its shooting phase, AND the Onslaught psychic power.

 

Anything else to be aware off? I myself am training myself to handle first turn charges, even assuming the beta rules for tactical reserves aren't in place. Just to get the XP.

[Axilleas]

@ Axilleas - Welcome to the Fang.

 

Sigh, your post illustrates why I thoroughly despite mixing different "Chapter tactics" and matching even within the same codex. There is so much potential for error or outright deception if you do that, from mixing wrong "chapter tactics" with different units, to using wrong strategems. And somehow, I doubt that fellow painted his units different colors to illustrate different hive strains.

 

As a tyranid player, I need to ask you: due to the beta rules on tactical reserves, are there still any hidden tactics you have that can enable the 1st turn charge? The only one I can think off is the Swarmlord's ordering a unit to move/advance during its shooting phase, AND the Onslaught psychic power.

 

Anything else to be aware off? I myself am training myself to handle first turn charges, even assuming the beta rules for tactical reserves aren't in place. Just to get the XP.

 

While the beta rules have hit every armies's ability to Alpha pretty hard, I think Nids have more tools to adjust then many other armies.

 

Kraken Genestealers are stoopid fast. 3D6 pick highest advance, use stratagem to double the advance roll (good chance for a 5 or 6, so advancing an extra 10-12") then they can still charge. 

 

I just came up with a new combo the other day that took my friend by surprise. I kitted out a flying HT with double syth talons and Kraken artefact (-1 to hit), started it on board next to Malenthrope (another -1 to hit). HT moves 16", Swarmlord moves + advance, then Stratagem to move + advance again (Metabolic Overdrive) to keep up with HT, then Hive Commander HT so it gets to move another 16" (plus potentially advance if I wanted to use Onslaught on it). Using this tactic I was able to get my HT right next to my friend's Sanguinius HQ, kill it in combat, then used my HT Warlord trait (Mindeater) to then Move + Advance at the end of the fight phase back into my lines next to my Malenthrope again for the defensive buff.  I thought it was pretty cool (I had this cinematic scene in my head where the HT swooped down out of the spore filled sky to impale the Sanguinius, then leap back into the sky to devour it's brain). My friend was pretty demoralized for the rest of the game since it happened turn 1 and just couldn't come back from it.

 

Another tactic Tyranid players have been talking over is a Lictor stratagem called 'Pheremone Trails.' It is hotly debated right now and will need a faq if the beta rules get implemented, but the argument is that a unit deep-strikes into the Nid deployment zone turn 1, then after it is set up, use the stratagem to bring it to the Lictor (who has moved + advanced + metabolic overdrived to your front line). If you play an opponent with Lictors, I would make sure to discuss that with them before the game to come to an agreement.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

@ Axilleas - Welcome to the Fang.

 

Sigh, your post illustrates why I thoroughly despite mixing different "Chapter tactics" and matching even within the same codex. There is so much potential for error or outright deception if you do that, from mixing wrong "chapter tactics" with different units, to using wrong strategems. And somehow, I doubt that fellow painted his units different colors to illustrate different hive strains.

 

As a tyranid player, I need to ask you: due to the beta rules on tactical reserves, are there still any hidden tactics you have that can enable the 1st turn charge? The only one I can think off is the Swarmlord's ordering a unit to move/advance during its shooting phase, AND the Onslaught psychic power.

 

Anything else to be aware off? I myself am training myself to handle first turn charges, even assuming the beta rules for tactical reserves aren't in place. Just to get the XP.

 

 

 

I just came up with a new combo the other day that took my friend by surprise. I kitted out a flying HT with double syth talons and Kraken artefact (-1 to hit), started it on board next to Malenthrope (another -1 to hit). HT moves 16", Swarmlord moves + advance, then Stratagem to move + advance again (Metabolic Overdrive) to keep up with HT, then Hive Commander HT so it gets to move another 16" (plus potentially advance if I wanted to use Onslaught on it). Using this tactic I was able to get my HT right next to my friend's Sanguinius HQ, kill it in combat, then used my HT Warlord trait (Mindeater) to then Move + Advance at the end of the fight phase back into my lines next to my Malenthrope again for the defensive buff.  I thought it was pretty cool (I had this cinematic scene in my head where the HT swooped down out of the spore filled sky to impale the Sanguinius, then leap back into the sky to devour it's brain). My friend was pretty demoralized for the rest of the game since it happened turn 1 and just couldn't come back from it.

 

 

OK, I don't very much like you at this point, as that is disgustingly broken and a clear example of just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I just hope your friend wasn't left a weeping wreck at the end. I don't have the tyranid codex with me but just hearing about this makes me sick thoroughly. 

 

Ah forgive me, I sound like I'm judging you as a bad person over a game mechanic that looks legal. I asked, and you answered. I don't like the answer but its mostly a kneejerk reaction. For that i thank you for your honesty and will have to prepare accordingly when I next fight Tyranids in my meta. Looks like I have to bubble wrap my characters very carefuly. These days I seem to be using Bjorn though but even then, don't take risks that the above can happen.

 

Looks like something only one who has read the hive strains, warlord traits and strategems thoroughly would understand though. Hopefully the spammers in my meta haven't caught on to this.

 

for your other two comments regarding Kraken and Lictors, also duly noted, thanks.

[TiguriusX]

The HT combo is awesome. Nobody gives a glance at mind eater here

You can actually assassinate Bjorn fairly easy with a combo like that. I usually leave his rear arc fairly open

 

*There is an eldar combo similar to this.  I have seen batreps where they charge in hard with their jetbike unit and kill someone then use an ability to retreat (moving and advancing).  

 

I think Nick Nanavati was talking about it in his post LVO interviews

 

The usage of a swarmlord (an expensive unit on its own) to get the additional movement phase in is an interesting twist from the tyranid codex

[Hear da Lamentation]

Wow ... some amazingly good advice here ... thanks gents

[Hear da Lamentation]

I’ll check with my Nid friend on exactly what he had. It is likely any mistakes are mine as I don’t know the army well enough (something I intend to rectify).

 

He didn’t use jorgunmamdr I’m pretty sure.

He had 2 additional units which could come up with the Trygon as a command trait (cost 2CP).

 

The devilgaunts and I assume broodlord and flyrant were Kronos detatchment.

The genestealers and his backfield were Kraken

I think ... he definitely had 2 detatchments with those rules ...

 

Is there anything wrong with that?

 

HDL

[PeteySödes]

Wow ... some amazingly good advice here ... thanks gents

I’m going to go thru in lots of detail tonight and post what I come up with. A quick question though on one comment.... psychers and the FNP spell. I thought catalyst could only be attempted once PER PSYCHER. Is that not true and it’s that it can only be successfully cast once per turn?

 

That would be major ....

 

HDL

 

One power per phase unless otherwise stated (ie smite).

[TiguriusX]

Wow ... some amazingly good advice here ... thanks gents

I’m going to go thru in lots of detail tonight and post what I come up with. A quick question though on one comment.... psychers and the FNP spell. I thought catalyst could only be attempted once PER PSYCHER. Is that not true and it’s that it can only be successfully cast once per turn?

 

That would be major ....

 

HDL

 

Check out the match play rules (p.215 of my BRB)

 

"Psychic focus" rule says you can only ATTEMPT (not succeed but attempt) each psychic power 1 time per turn (smite excluded)

[Hear da Lamentation]

Wow! Love it

[Axilleas]

Only one 'Troops' unit can come up with the Trygon, unless it is Jorgumander. Jorg strategem allows you to spend 1cp to add another infantry unit to the tunnels, but can't be used on non Jorg units. Devilgaunts & Trygon must both be from same hive fleet, and Kronos is kind of wasted on a Trygon, especially against SW since we're not psyker heavy.

[Hear da Lamentation]

His army was ...

 

Flyrant, genestealers, rippers x2, broodlord and trygon were kracken battalian. Hive guard, biovores, carnifex, devilgaunts, hormagaunts and neurothrope were kronos spearhead.

 

I don’t think he needs Jorgunmamdr does he?

 

HDL

[Axilleas]

Devilgaunts can't go into the tunnels with Trygon unless they are from the same hive fleet. Nothing else can go into the tunnels unless they are all Jorgumander and use the strategem to add more infantry units.

[Hear da Lamentation]

OK - so all that is looking much better.  We don't get to play that much nowadays, so all these are honest mistakes by my Nid friend, but only 1 FNP and losing the reroll 1's if you don't move is going to help.  A really great set of posts Axilleas and a nice learning curve for me.

 

I've looking forward to building a quite different army than I originally thought .... I'll post it this weekend for comment.

 

HDL

[Axilleas]

 

OK, I don't very much like you at this point, as that is disgustingly broken and a clear example of just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I just hope your friend wasn't left a weeping wreck at the end. I don't have the tyranid codex with me but just hearing about this makes me sick thoroughly. 

 

Ah forgive me, I sound like I'm judging you as a bad person over a game mechanic that looks legal. I asked, and you answered. I don't like the answer but its mostly a kneejerk reaction. For that i thank you for your honesty and will have to prepare accordingly when I next fight Tyranids in my meta. Looks like I have to bubble wrap my characters very carefuly. These days I seem to be using Bjorn though but even then, don't take risks that the above can happen.

 

Looks like something only one who has read the hive strains, warlord traits and strategems thoroughly would understand though. Hopefully the spammers in my meta haven't caught on to this.

 

for your other two comments regarding Kraken and Lictors, also duly noted, thanks.

 

Ha, no offense taken. It was a particularly nasty thing of me to do, but he had done absolutely 0 screening of his character. After the game, he told me his plan was actually to surround the Sanguinius with his Sanguinary guard unit, but my Nids were so far away he felt it was unnecessary and put them in DS instead. He won't be making that same mistake again. 

 

The HT combo is awesome. Nobody gives a glance at mind eater here

 

You can actually assassinate Bjorn fairly easy with a combo like that. I usually leave his rear arc fairly open

 

*There is an eldar combo similar to this.  I have seen batreps where they charge in hard with their jetbike unit and kill someone then use an ability to retreat (moving and advancing).  

 

I think Nick Nanavati was talking about it in his post LVO interviews

 

The usage of a swarmlord (an expensive unit on its own) to get the additional movement phase in is an interesting twist from the tyranid codex

 

Thanks, I haven't seen or read about anybody else using mind eater either, but I was looking at trying to create my own 'Captain Smash Face' as a character assassin and the combo just jumped out at me. It is expensive though, so really can only get it in a 2k game. 

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Axileas - I still feel odd about the tactic. Let me try break it down:

 

1) Hive Tyrant moves 16" + Advance

2) Swarmlord moves + advance/

3) Swarmlord uses strategem to move and advance again to be within range of Hive Tyrant

4) Hive Tyrant is "Ordered" by Swarmlord to move or advance if you want to use Onslaught to advance and charge

5) Your Hive Tyrant then charges/assassinates whatever you moved and Advance forward to TWICE.

6) After Charge phase, Mind Eater warlord trait allows to move + Advance again, which you say you did to go back in range of the Malanthrope for -1 to hit debuff

 

So all in all, basically you made a total of 3 Movements, which could also be Advances depending if you need Onslaught to charge afterwards. Doesn't look like you need to though, 16" movement X 2 = 32" which is 3/4 of a board by its short edges. 2 Movements forward + Charge, then  1 movement backward.

 

Hmmmm, I guess it's really risky for you if you somehow fail the charge or fail to kill the character you want to assassinate. Or you advance and try to cast Onslaught only to be denied and left facing the whole army in the face without being able to charge. Which is why you have the -1 relic I suppose, but by then, you'll be in range of every heavy weapon, even melta special weapons if the tactic fails.

 

All in all, very balsy, surprising but also risky for you. Since there ARE some risks for you as opposed to NO risk or difficulty pulling it off ........ I guess for as marine player, we have to be careful even after using the beta rules.

 

On a last note: the Blood Angel unit you assassinated is the Sanguinor, not Sanguinus  the Primarch who is truly dead and dead, no two ways about it until GW pulls some lame excuse of its behind to resurrect the most beloved and epitome of sacrifice Primarch. Not sure if you know much about Blood Angels fluff, but in case you are wondering what the heck is the Sanguinor if he isn't Sanguinus, well, to put it mildly....

 

 

.... he is a daemon prince of the Blood Angels.... I wish I was joking but as per the Ruinstorm HH novel, he was a marine who voluntarily served as a double for Sanguinus and was sealed in his armour for it. And in order to get the Blood Angels to Terra, this badass voluntarily held a warp gate with the sheer power of his manliness. Sanguinus wanted to do it but basically his foresight told him that if Sanguinus didn't die by Horus hand, the heresy will turn out MUCH MUCH worse. And the last Sanguinus saw of this manly marine holding the tide of daemons at bay, that fellow was sprouting/mutating wings.

 

So I guess I shouldn't be worrried you assassinated Sanguinus: only the manliest marine or what's left of him alive in 40K which is not a dreadnought unlike our dear Bjorn.

 

[Axilleas]

Haha, I was not aware of the lore behind the Sanguinor. No wonder my friend was so depressed.

 

The HT combo definitely has a lot of moving parts to it, so it's no guarantee by far. In my above example, I didn't have to advance so I didn't need to worry about getting onslaught off (which I instead cast on my full strength Hormagaunt unit that devoured a forward unit of scouts).

 

I gave the HT the double scythes just to get the +1 attack to help ensure he is successful in his role. It is more designed to take out weaker support characters like LTs, Ancients, etc. Funny thing is, my friend could have used a cp to reroll a failed save, but just didn't think about it and I wasn't about to say anything. Had he done so and succeeded, he would have survived and my HT would have been massively exposed.

 

It's not a 'competitive' build by any means, but it sure is fun.

 

* Forgot to mention, I also use a 1cp strategem on the HT in the fight phase that allows it to reroll failed wounds. So 5 attks hits on 2+ rerolling 1s (scyth talons), then rerolling failed wounds (3+ on Sanguinor, would be 5+ on Bjorn).

[Hear da Lamentation]

This is a great thread and a huge thanks to those who've answered, there's some great advice in here as well as some deep Lore against those pesky bugs.

 

This is what I've come up with ....

 

Bjorn twinlinked lascannon heavy flamer warlord.

Runepriest

 

4 Grey hunters, chainswords, plasma gun

1 pack leader power axe

1 wolfguard pack leader storm shield, stormbolter

 

4 Grey Hunters, chainswords

1 pack leader

 

4 Grey Hunters, chainswords

1 pack leader

 

Razorback twinlinked assault cannon

Razorback twinlinked assault cannon

 

5 Space Marine Scouts

5 Space Marine Scouts

 

5 Longfangs 5 lascannons

1 Pack leader

 

... On the Hunt

5 Aggressors auto boltstorm gauntlets, fragstorm launcher

 

4 Longfangs 4 heavy bolters

1 Packleader combi plasma

1 wolfguard packleader combi plasma

 

 

The scouts obviously buffer his 1st turn deepstrike (I think he will avoid coming in round 1).

The more tooled out Grey Hunters could join the On the Hunt, but I think they are needed to back up Bjorn and the 2 Razors.

 

Lots of shooting ... not as much assault as I am used to .. but that was the idea.

 

What do you think?

 

HDL 

[TiguriusX]

I would drop 1 heavy bolter

 

put a storm shield on LF pack leader

 

5 point investment when it works is amazing (he cant plasma you back easily for example...and if you arrive in cover you have 2+ against basic guns)

 

can toss another ax on your GH or upgrade to a wolf claw. if you go the ax route I would move the existing ax to the 3rd gh squad so you dont lose all upgrades if he focus fires

 

I also expect a batrep!

 

*edit

 

and Bjorn is seriously all the assault you need. if you give him fighting warlord trait and prevent him from being charged he will delete almost anything in the game when charging with a+1

 

I babysit Bjorn with a null zone librarian in my list. if null zone works it is pure carnage when Bjorn attacks