Struggling Quite a Bit with Mars

[Prot]

I’m just curious what you guys think of this....

 

I love everything about Mars AdMech including Cawl, except on the tabletop. I’ve a massed quite a decent collection now.

 

My issue is one group I’m actually using my AdMech with is usually hosing them constantly. Or if I do win it’s something where I table them in the last turn.

 

We play a modified Maelstrom because it is less swingy in nature. Basically like some tournaments we count all multipoint cards as 2 points and any card ( including dominate) that could NEVER be accomplished ( even at game start) as a free discard.

 

We have found this keeps us sharp for tournies and isn’t quite as prone to goofy luck as typical Maelstrom.

 

So I’m telling you guys this so you realize that I’m often stuck trying to secure some objective.

 

Anyway I don’t want to drop Mars. And I confess I’ve never used more than two dakka bots. I’m not even convinced they really work in fat numbers.

 

My best units appear to be Sicaran infiltrators, Vanguard ( just for cheap footprint to prevent getting slaughtered by Alpha, which dies happen to me ). And of course I love Dragoon’s and Dunecrawlers.

 

A close ‘B’ grade unit would be my jazz hands but for the first time I’m thinking of dropping them.

 

Things I truly struggle with are Destroyers of any kind, Ironsriders and alternative to Sicarans... forgot their name already lol

 

I tried a list with three Armigers and while I knew they would be bad and need a Codex, I lost that game in Turn 1. It was the worst beating I’ve had in 8 th. ( against generic chaos too).

 

Anyone have some so,I’d experience with Mars that could give some advice?

[Marshlands]

Well if you're trying to table your opponent a big unit of dakkabots is really the way to go.

 

Mars isn't particularly good at objectives, and is built for a camping shooty list.

 

The units your finding effective are the units good for capturing objectives but generally this type of play is easier under different forgeworlds. The infiltrators in a squad of 10 and the 5 shot weapon aren't bad with the Wrath of Mars stratagem I guess. The jazz hands for example can access deep strike with another forgeworld which makes them far more effective.

 

If you don't want to stray from mars I'd commit to trying to annihilate with shooting, kinda thing I'd use is Cawl a big unit of robots and destroyers with the +1 to hit stratagem and WoM. The stratagem to change protocols can be useful in a pinch, such as to kill stuff on turn 1 before defensive powers are used. This is pretty much the only type of Mars list you see (and is usually bad at objectives).

 

Bringing some guard might be a good way to help with objective if that would work for you.

[Charlo]

So for me, what has always done the most damage is:

 

4 Phosphor Kastellan

1 Unit of Kataphron Destroyers

 

Add Wrath of Mars + Elimination Volley with Cawl nearby.

 

Yes, it is 4CP but it will put down most things with ease. Also due to each robot getting an absurd 18 shots you could always fire each one at a different target too.

 

Once you've done this once they become a big target, but that is good as the bots are so damn bloody tough and it lets your other units have some breathing space.

[Scurvydog]

This fits my experience with Mars and admech in general as well. 

 

Semi competetive 8th really needs some nasty spam or synergy, which Cawl brings to the ranged game, but the other CC options for admech, while decent, really lacks that final thing to make them truly good.

 

I have held back on the armigers to see the new book and if that helps any, I don't see them as helping the issues at hand here, which matches your experiences I guess.

 

On paper admech has a lot of melee options, fulgurites, infiltrators, ruststalkers, dragoons and even melee bots. They all fall into the category just "ok-ish", with dragoons a bit above perhaps with stygies, as they are great at not getting hit.

 

Mars suffers from having an unreliable dogma without Cawl, so Cawl is needed to make good use of that. He is a big investment and only benefits shooting, so you need to go that route as well to be point efficient... You see where I am getting at, Mars lists from an efficiency point of view nearly build themselves.

 

What you will often see in armies which can actually advance and be a threat, is some kind of point multiplier for either durability or close combat efficiency. Admech has neither, as all HQ choices can only repair and the expensive ones buff shooting only, while also being slow and the repair is wasted if not standing next to robots or dunecrawlers, while being unable to keep up with dragoons.

 

This creates a problem for advancing/CC admech, as all their HQ's are good at, is to stay behind and support other ranged units.When you begin to split up your forces in the attempt to do a bit of CC, those units will quickly get picked of, as aside from the dragoons perhaps, they are all very squishy with T3 and poor saves, while not even being that impressive in a fight.

 

Without durability enhancing units, transports and mobility stratagems limited to other forgeworlds, I do not see Mars as much else than a gunline. I lament it is so and can only imagine how cool it would be, if Cawl was a bit faster, with his aura buffing in the fight phase, or perhaps just generic skitarii vanguard/sicarian HQ's with some buffs to an advancing admech force.

[Feral_80]

Sadly there is not much to do if you want to be competitive.

 

Mars requires Cawl + dakkabots. Which is terribly boring and static, but is pretty much the only competitive build in the codex.

 

Add Onagers, and barebones 5x rangers/vanguards for protection against deepstrike. 2x Infiltrators are vital because you have zero mobility otherwise, but you must choose wisely when/where to deploy as they are super-squishy. They also work decently with Wrath of Mars if needed. Chickens can help too, but against half the armies out there won't achieve much.

 

As for the rest, I've experimented with disco-stick priests, but I find them useless without a transport. Destroyers are too fragile, but get along well with the Robots as said already, and if you start the game behind a l-o-s-blocking terrain you might be able to use them.

 

The rest sadly seems very poor, including most other forgeworlds.

 

I've experimented with an allied detachment of Stygies or Ryza for CC support, but honestly between the second HQ of the mandatory (Mars) Battalion and the 1 HQ of the other detachment, you spend far too many points in pretty useless stuff.

 

The Enginseer is a joke, and while not very expensive he is still purely wasted pts. The Dominus is basically useless as well, especially in Mars/Cawl, and costs over double the pts. So you end up with a dilemma: do I spend 47 pts in a completely useless model, or 125 pts in an almost useless model? All 2x times. Not exactly the best start to devise a flexible concept of army list.

[Charlo]

Enginseer isn't bad to repair stuff and hold a relic out of sight.

[Feral_80]

That is extremely situational...90% of the times he's a guy with an embarrassing profile and zero chances to do anything in both CC and shooting.

 

He *might* repair d3 wounds once or twice in a game, but that hardly makes him worth his cost. He's really a tax.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I would chime in but I would just be repeating what Charlo is saying word for word.

[synthaside]

I continue to play every forge world but mars, I have Cawl and I've enjoyed using him but Static gun lines seem to Lose games down my club most of the time. Transport heavy armies or faster forces that can move around to take objectives fair a lot better so I’ve adopted Aggressive ad mech that extra 100 points im saving by not having  cawl buys me other things.
 

I've won games as Stygies, Metallica and more recently my secret assault darling Ryza all of which have been more fun and rewarding to play than Gun line.

I’ll give an example;   this Friday in our 1250 league I played against another ad mech player who is disillusioned by mars ...  he was playing his dark angels...  ravenwing, I lost the first turn, he advanced his plasma biker knights from mars (Bad joke). To the midfield and fired at my dragoon line, killing one and wounding another. He advanced and used the stratagem to let him shoot / charge but then got unlucky failing an 8 inch roll. Other Shooting from him was random and light I picked Shroud psalm for turn 1 and had done my best to use some good LOS blocking terrain to hide from his hell blasters, which he again shot at the dragoons dropping 1 to 1 wound.

On my turn my opponent did a double take as I moved my entire army forward bar a unit of 2 robots,  I left 1 TPD exactly 6 inches away for the re-roll ones and surged everything else forward to take the mid-board ,  with My dragoons and  vanguard charging the biker knights  my dragoons are hitting on 2's  exploding on 4’s (stratagem) but now  wounding his bikers on 2's  (thanks 2 alive vanguard that soaked the plasma over watch ) and -re-rolling 1's to wound in combat  ( Ryza )

As the game continues , with some fire support from my Onager and robots whittling down units that aren’t close enough for combat  my opponent now has to push me back off the mid field objectives,  I can contest into his deployment zone and do so with  my Jazz hands ,  vanguard and breaches  , I even win a warlord fight  when his jump pack equipped guy makes a desperation charge in …  to be killed by my TPD who has  the relic for d6 extra attacks  and a  Enginseer who heroic intervened in.

The game  ended 13 points to his 1 , my opponent commented on how my ad mech playstyle was utterly different to what he used to , he had expected to be able to win the shooting match and didn’t expect me to aggressively chase objectives , never forget most of all of our units “ can move even advance without much penalty …  We don’t care about hugging cover and even our Vanguard can get the job done in combat when needed , especially  so when in +1 strength canticle , re rolling 1’s to wound. or near a TPD with … the omniscient mask.

[DeStinyFiSh]

I think in general it is a good thing that the gunline is not working as it did in 7th. It was kind of boring to just point at thinks in the correct order, remove them from the table and win the game this way.

But this does not mean a little castle is a bad thing, you just need to supplement it accordingly. In a 2000 point match you can take Carl, 5 Destroyer and 4 Kastellans for about 1000 points. This is a lot of Dakka but still leaves room to add Skitarii for midfield objectives and deepstrike denial, Dragoons and Infiltrators to get to the other side or maybe CC Kastellans and E-Priests to counter assault.

 

On the other hand I have to agree with synthaside, there are more ways to play Ad Mech today, even Ryza is surprisingly good. I managed to beat a Tyranid Player with a CC oriented Ad Mech army. He was thrown off guard when my dudes closed the distance to punch him in the face. Against a static gunline he would have won I guess.

[Charlo]

I suppose that's just it really, Mars has a pretty average Dogma because Cawl exists. If you don't take him essentially all you end up with is one nice stratagem to spam mortal wounds, that in reality also requires specific units to work well (Jazzhands, Dakka Robots, Massed Vanguard etc).

 

The other Dogmas are somewhat more powerful by comparison, but don't have the reliable canticles and massed re-roll bubble to help/ restrict them.

 

Maybe the key to Mars is having that solid firebase, but also some good mobile units too, something that only really get buffed by the fact you'll have shroudpsalm on.

[Feral_80]

Well Mars has one of the most powerful (if not the most powerful) Stratagems in the codex, the only Warlord who can actually do something besides being a mere tax, the only way to make Canticles reasonably useful (again with Cawl), and the best synergy among certain units. At the same time, it also suffers from encouraging the most boring way to play ever (static gunline) and from the related issue of a severe lack of mobility, which often does cost games regardless of raw firepower.

 

Going Mars without Cawl makes little sense. Going full Mars is rather unimaginative and rigid. 

I think the ideal solution is to have a Mars detachment backed up by one of the other two decent FWs: either Stygies (but it is useless against certain opponents) or Ryza (less powerful, but more flexible and always useful). I got some reasonable results and fun by going this way.

 

Every time I've tried to leave Mars alone, the results were very poor. 

[Charlo]

I'm really loathe to do more detachment of other Forgeworlds, however I suppose it could make sense.

 

That new Mechanicus game has reps from all of the main worlds in the story operating on the same planet with/ against/ for/ under eachother!

 

Okay - let's flesh this out...!

 

Say you have your main Detachment of Cawl, Robots, Kataphron etc - anything to really push to re-rolls...

 

What would your other detachment be?

• LUCIUS Teleporting combat Robots & Jazzhands
• METALLICA Jazz Hands, Vanguard & Dragoons to advance up without sacrificing power
• RYZA Sicarians, Dragoons & Disco Sticks to get in fast and hit better
• STYGIES Rangers, Vanguard & Sicarians to have a nice defence/ offence balance
• AGRIPINAA first wave of Kataphron to eat assaults with strong overwatch and refresh to full strength after?

[Heliomanes]

The classic semi competitive mix seems to be Mars with rerolling dakkabots, and Stygies for dragoons with an effective -2 to hit. It's a bit dull though.

[MajorNese]

Lucius becomes useful by deep striking vanguard. 18" plasma/radium stays out of interceptor stratagem range, down big targets on the turn they drop, and are an active threat for the next rounds. At 122p/1CP for a full plasma squad, I don't think you can go wrong. Shroudpsalm and ignoring AP-1 are a nice combo to soak up the inevitable backlash, but takes weight of fire off the Mars gunline, maybe give you VP by claiming midfield objectives. Deep strike is so reliable this edition, getting units when and where you need them.

[Charlo]

Lucius becomes useful by deep striking vanguard. 18" plasma/radium stays out of interceptor stratagem range, down big targets on the turn they drop, and are an active threat for the next rounds. At 122p/1CP for a full plasma squad, I don't think you can go wrong. Shroudpsalm and ignoring AP-1 are a nice combo to soak up the inevitable backlash, but takes weight of fire off the Mars gunline, maybe give you VP by claiming midfield objectives. Deep strike is so reliable this edition, getting units when and where you need them.

 

Yeah seems a good enough shout. All those 6s to wound for 2D help out too in my experience.

 

Probably a nice little trick to have up the sleeve, even if it's a Patrol Detachment?

[Clingy]

I just love solar flare. I reckon out of 30 games the relic will be worthless in all but 1 of them. But that one crunch game where you opponent is chasing down a wounded warlord for points....Bleeeiuuurp and he’s teleporting outta there behind cover :P

[MajorNese]

I just love solar flare. I reckon out of 30 games the relic will be worthless in all but 1 of them. But that one crunch game where you opponent is chasing down a wounded warlord for points....Bleeeiuuurp and he’s teleporting outta there behind cover

Fun when running knights. Last game, my opponent dropped my atropos down to 4W, just short of his backfield. Solar flare, necromechanic and 1CP and it's back up to 8W, enough to stomp it's way through the IG parking lot. Also, when using up the doctrina to reroll shooting 1s, teleport the dominus into 6" of all those plasma squads to prevent overheat. Or claim an abandoned objective when necessary. A lot of flexibility, compared to other relics.

[Prot]

This is an interesting read. I can't flat out argue against any of it really. On the other hand maybe my stubborn-ness prevents me from splitting my army into other Forgeworlds, or making Allies of other armies I have.

 

I do know I like Cawl as a character, and really enjoyed him in the Gathering Storm. With Cawl I like to (perhaps stupidly) imagine that I should be able to shoot as well or better than any other army in the game because I'm paying 240 points for a very monochromatic character. (I have played Guilliman on and off since he came out so I know I'm dellusional.)

 

Now what you guys are all saying is Mars = Shooty Kastellans, Destroyers (I'm leaning towards Grav after too many instagibs). And I agree. I don't really like Destroyers they get into trouble and they're still so flaky to me... I think they should be T6 and 4 wounds at their current cost.

 

Anyway, I concede I should be playing 4 Shooty Kastelans (I play 2 with a Datasmith) and get 3 Destroyers back in the mix. That's fine... I can live with that.

 

I find with that base it's mandatory I have a large Vanguard/Ranger footprint... or I'm dead. (My Chaos opponent Warp TIme + WarpTalons + Oblits = one turn defeat).

 

I'm okay with Vanguard/Rangers... just wish I could get a little more out of them, and I find larger squads of them disappear too easily.

 

I'd like to think that with a core like everyone recommends for Mars, that I can be competitve. To date, my best lists have 5 Dragoons in them (often filling out my Brigade). They intercept, and combo with the +2 to hit Strat and have stood up to some pretty good stuff. 

 

The problem is I find this gets to be a bad choice against a few armies and economically speaking I think I'd rather be shooting. The problem is a lot of stuff feels like just.. junk. Vanguard/Rangers are cheap enough but rarely do a heck of a lot for me. The Ballistari Ironstriders I have completely removed from lists. The Dominus feels very expensive, and although I often use the Engineseer it is purely for cheap Brigade HQ to offset Cawl's cost a bit.

 

Re-rolling Onagers is great... I'm not going to complain. It's just I find this balance of shooting and assault just doesn't come together for me especially in all these Objective Based missions.

 

Believe it or not a Knight I have taken... I'm not opposed to Knights and I've done better with them because they block T1-T2 charges well, and can disengage without -penalty- (this is huge and why I'm so disappointed in Warglaives.)

 

So I tried 2 Warglaives... not doing that again until they are fixed. 

 

It's starting to look like the only thing in my Meta that MAY allow me to pull Dragoons out of the list is the new Knight codex. 

 

And another thing that is killing me is the Psychic/Smite Phase. Just a killer here... I never know who I'm playing (we don't list tailor) so I've brought Psychic defense against.... Tau for instance, and just about been tabled. Astra are incredibly potent too, and can hide their psykers (2+ saves on super heavy tanks is no joke!)

 

Thanks for the input. I have had a reality check with it from the perspective that I can not afford to pull punches here. I have to start with Cawl+4 Phospher Bots + 3 Destroyers minimum. And I probably cannot get away with less that 3 Dragoons.  The rest... I dunno. Perhaps it's setting up for a Knight army. I'm not sure.

[Clingy]

 

 

I just love solar flare. I reckon out of 30 games the relic will be worthless in all but 1 of them. But that one crunch game where you opponent is chasing down a wounded warlord for points....Bleeeiuuurp and he’s teleporting outta there behind cover

Fun when running knights. Last game, my opponent dropped my atropos down to 4W, just short of his backfield. Solar flare, necromechanic and 1CP and it's back up to 8W, enough to stomp it's way through the IG parking lot. Also, when using up the doctrina to reroll shooting 1s, teleport the dominus into 6" of all those plasma squads to prevent overheat. Or claim an abandoned objective when necessary. A lot of flexibility, compared to other relics.

I can’t help but use command point recycling trait. Repair bot would be my second choice

[Heliomanes]

Thing is, the Skitarii tend to die to a stiff breeze, so people tend to only use them in 5 man squads to fill out batallions for command points. Dragoons seem to be much better bubble wrap for your firebase, since they are comparatively cheap, good, and have a big footprint that you'll have to work to remove. I've seen an argument made for using Breachers in a similar role, since they aren't too bad price wise, and can get some utility out of hanging out with Cawl and his robot buddies.

I just hope we get some more interesting ways to build an Admech / Knight army soon. The current choices seem a bit stale and inflexible, so most Admech lists that try to be semicompetitive tend to become similar to one another. Those who try to become competitive just reduce to Imperium soup with robots attached. Which is sad, because they have always been so distinct and varied in the fluff. From bestial, feral Skitarii decked out in totems and feathers, bonded to a Titan legion - to droning masses of battle servitors controlled from orbit. I wish our rules would represent that more properly.

[synthaside]

I too like the command point recycle trait, it allows me to not have to run a brigade and get away with 2 battalions,  or 1 and heavy support, on average that trait scores me 2 CP a game, 3 if you count using a re-roll on warlords saving throw ;-) it's hard to turn down.

While we "can" build a brigade as mars don't think we're getting good value from doing so ...   Our basic troops need their upgrades to be all they can be on the field, plasma calivers melt marines, Rangers need TAU's to be a threat or then can just be totally ignored.  Our other units only get good when they hit critical mass, 3 dragoons are wonderful, 1 is a distraction but lacks a lot of punch, whats the point of having all those command points for stratagems if our targets are 1 man dragoons or basic infantry.

I think Mars struggles to get into a brigade at 2k, and that's more or less intended, cawl takes up 1/4 of the points on his own, and running mars without him is not ideal. Other forge worlds are forced to take cheaper Hq's because they don't get cawl , and this means they can fill a brigade at 2k without taking basic Minimum size units.  Mars is super CP hungry which is why a brigade looks so attractive and why people often take cheap IG to score some CP, I do not want to do this it just feels wrong.

Unit size and equipment REALLY matter I've settled into 7 man squads for my troops with 2 special weapons for the best mixture of cannon fodder to protect them without them getting too large for morale.  Even subpar units like Ironstriders look terrible When you consider a single model, but I wasn't seeing the synergy, I wasn't considering how I need the board presence. How a  unit of 3 of them can drown shoot up the battlefield then use rage of the machines to negate the penalties to hit combine this with the 2d6 advance stratagem means an average move of 17,  then a serious hail of autocannon fire and woe betide anyone charging them due to Cognis overwatch.

Ad mech can be a  mid ground mobile assault force, a Martian Gunline , A blood angel's style deep strike combat army  ,  Join me OUTSIDE THE BOX ...

[MrSingularity]

Good discussion synthaside, but Cawl is actually 1/8 of your points at 2k.

 

Maybe Mars is stronger with battalions, pick one slot and don't run that slot. So maybe either cut Dragoons or cut Infiltrators?

 

Leaves you with enough points to try to get 12 CP from 3 battalions + battle forged.

 

47 + 47 + 35 + 35 + 35 = 199 for 3 CP and some OK, decent units. (10% or 1/10 of your list)

[lash144]

So how do your lists look like at 2k? Do they include Cawl? If yes how many robots does he have with him?

[synthaside]

Ha-ha, wow, yes sorry 1/8 looks like I've been playing too many 1250 and 1k league games.

If I were running Cawl, it would be like below as 2 battalions give or take 700 points, leaving me 1300  for fun stuff ….
When you take cawl I feel there's an opportunity cost we cant have all the cake 

Madatory choices

One                                                            Two

TPD                  @ 125                                Cawl   @ 250
TPE                  @ 47                                  TPE    @  47
3X  Vanguard   @ 120                                3 X Rangers @ 105

Fun stuff that i rotate in and out, but I do tend to not play much mars , and under metallica or Stygies some of these get extra fun bonuses.

3 Dragoons    love , these  

3 onagers     , with all available weapon choices , icarus / erad beamer preference.
2 robots       i don't take more than 2  they are too immobile and easily countered , people know how to play around them
3 Destroyers / breachers  ,    I keep trying these as they should be better in mars but typically aren't , however sometimes they murder a predator in a turn :-D

10 man vangard team           cheap and  30 shots source for wrath of mars 

10 man blob of Infiltrators     "Surprise  meatsacks ",  here's 50 shots for wrath of mars landing in from deep strike , You see that elite' unite ... no no you dont.
20 strong Corpiscai Blob   ,   My more aggressive mid table units  220 points nets you 60 + shots for wrath of mars plus with extra tesla murder bonus  ZAPPPPP

Ave Omnissiah