Struggling Quite a Bit with Mars

[Feral_80]

Here is the latest 2.000 pts list I'm tinkering with. Not yet tested on the field, but it is built on some (limited) previous experiences with these units:

 

Mars battalion:

 

Cawl

Enginseer

 

3x Destroyers (grav, phosphor)

5x Rangers (2x arquebus)

5x Vanguard 

5x Vanguard (1x arc)

5x Vanguard (1x arc)

 

3x Dakkabots

Onager (laser, 2x stubbers)

Onager (laser, 2x stubbers)

 

 

Ryza Vanguard:

 

Enginseer

 

Datasmith

5x Infiltrators (taser)

5x Infiltrators (taser)

 

3x Kastelans (fists and flamers)

 

 

Quite straightforward, but Ryza allows for some dynamic fun. If everything goes as it should, the Dakkabots only need to change their protocol once with the stratagem. The firebase stays back, while the rest advances covered by the Vanguard chaff as long as it lasts. Infiltrators deployed as needed. I would love to include a unit of 3x Dragoons, but I cannot find the pts for them. I might drop the Rangers and a Vanguard unit, to include perhaps 2x Dragoons, but I am not sure it's worth it even if I've never seen great performances from transuranic arquebus, not even with Cawl around.

[Heliomanes]

Do you have any particular reason for using Ryza for the infiltrators and fist kastelans? Wouldn't it be better to get the infiltrators together in a 10 man unit from Mars, for the Wrath of Mars stratagem, like synthaside mentioned? And perhaps stygies or lucius for the ability to infiltrate or deep strike your robots?

[Charlo]

My 2K is basically the models I own, and is a very shooty Mars firebase supported with Skitarii that surge towards the midfield to hold up threats.

 

Gameplan is usually:

• Robots & Plasma Skitarii will stick to Cawl for the massed re-rolls. Elimination Protocol + Wrath of Mars on the Robots will straight up kill anything.
• Plasma Skitarii use interceptor Strat if need be.
• The Dominus usually rolls with the Onagers/ Breachers as back-up re-rolls and to repair.
• Two Enginseers repair the Onagers each turn.
• The Arc Rifle Skitarii and the two 5 man units will usually make a pest of themselves, popping off random chunks of Rhinos or anything Dreadnought sized.
• Cawl stays central, with priority being the robots for re-rolls - also acts as hilarious counter charge against anything that makes it to the back line.

Admittedly I've not played many games with this, let alone semi-competitive.

 

Ad Mech - 2000pts - Two Battalions - 9 CP

 

Battalion Alpha

• Belisarius Cawl
• Tech-Priest Dominus: Macro Stubber, Volkite Blaster
• 3 Breachers: Heavy Arc Rifle, Arc Claw
• 3 Destroyers: Plasma Culverin, Cognis Flamers
• 5 Vanguard: Data-Thether
• Datasmith
• 4 Kastelan Robots: Triple Phosphor

Battalion Omega

• Enginseer
• Enginseer
• 10 Vanguard: 3 Plasma Caliver, Omni-spex
• 10 Vanguard: 3 Arc Rifle, Data-Tether
• 5 Vanguard: Data-Tether
• Onager: Neutron Laser, Cognis Stubber
• Onager: Neutron Laser & Heavy Stubber, Extra Cognis Stubber
• Onager: Icarus Array, Extra Cognis Stubber

[Feral_80]

Well I really like the Ryza reroll 1s on wound, esp. on things that tend to wound most stuff on 2+ already.

 

10x Mars infiltrators might be good, but if I'm not using Wrath of Mars on the 3x Dakkabots then it means something has gone really wrong. So it would not be a priority. 

 

As for deepstrike: Lucius is unreliable, it's not so easy to charge from over 9" away and against certain opponents you will never be able to deploy where you'd like to. Stygies is a gamble, it can work but it can also be very useless against some opponents. I do like the idea to field 6x robots and 2x Onagers all from turn 1 in order to force an opponent to make critical choices, because he wll be unable (hopefully) to deal with all of them. If I had to change, I'd probably go Stygies with the Vanguard anyway. But then it would be 2 CPs just to infiltrate the Bots and their mandatory Datasmith...

[Heliomanes]

I've gone the "rule of cool" route with my lists lately. The past few weeks I've mostly used the following. Tends to be either a big win or a big loss, but I have plenty of fun with it.

LoW detachment - Knight Porphyrion and two Knight Armigers

Mechanicus Outriders (Stygies) - Enginseer (Necromechanic), 2 Dragoons, 2 Dragoons, 4 Balistarii with autocannons

[synthaside]

helio I adore that list, I'm inspirited to run something similar  except I don't have any cool forge world stuff, can you imagine ... your opponents face I hope they brought enough dark reapers .. :-P.

Mine would be my  Knight Crusader #f6f7f1, A TPD, two basic Armigers, 3 dragoons , 3 onagers 2 Icaraus 1 eradication beam and 2 bots   @ 1995 points
I Fort up with my onagers and robots around the TPD and everything else Surges forward, this backfield stuff would have to be  Stygies for the -1 to hit ... 

The Great thing about the Stygies CP is ... you don't  " HAVE to spend it", you are looking at the deployment and leaving the unit til last and deciding based on their deployment ...

It's as much fun to force this behaviour from your opponent and watch them deploy in an attempt to counter/deny it .... and then totally ignore it and drop them last on your side of the board , Granted i'd never do this kinda of moderately shady stuff unless it was a league or competitive match .
 

[lash144]

@ Feral

How are your Punchy Bots performing? I really like them from a rule of cool standpoint. But I don´t know if i can justify their high cost in a semi competitive match...

[Feral_80]

Well I've only used them once so far. They literally saved my butt, because in one turn they managed to slaughter 2x super-tough characters (Custodes on bikes) that had hit my lines. Without the bots, I'd had never been able to kill them I think. Granted, that was quite an ideal scenario for the bots. But I want to try them some more.

 

I do think they are hardly something that any opponent can ignore, however. Even if they do not survive.

 

I must say their pts cost is quite silly however. They should definitely cost less than dakkabots. Still, I think they are quite playable.

[lash144]

Having no ++ in CC is just really deterring me...

[Prot]

I have and have played against Custodes, and I’d agree that is a vintage use of punchy bots. I’ve been surprised how well Dragoons have held up Guardians. But AdMech do contain a lot of weaponry that are excellent at cutting down Custodes.

 

I do like the Knight list I’ve used similar with my Mars, except I use a Crusader Knight. But I had a very vanilla Battalion of Mars stuff, and I find the Alpha strike is a serious problem. At that point I’m on my back foot and can’t get on objectives being that defensive. Armies like Chaos and Nids can and are into me in T1 and own large parts of the board.

 

My big mistake was putting away my Crusader Knight and putting a heavy detachment of 3 Armigers in instead. As I mentioned earlier... not too bright.

 

I’ve even thought of going down from 2 neutron onagers to 1 plus the cheaper eradication beam or something else as I see the Necrons being a real problem with quantum shielding, actually neutering the neutron.

[SydonianDragoon404]

My 2k list is:
2 Battalions, both Mars. I know its not the most competitive choice but its easier for me to keep of track of things. 

 

Battalion 1:

Cawl

Dominus (CP generation warlord trait, autocaduceus) 

 

5 Rangers (2x arquebus, Omni)

5 Rangers

3 Plasma Kataphrons

 

2 Dragoons

 

8 Infiltrators

 

Neutronager

Neutronager

4x Dakkabots

 

Battalion 2:

Enginseer

Enginseer

 

5 Vanguard

6 Vanguard

7 Vanguard 2 Plasma, Omni

 

 

I've done quite well with this list. It has a winning record even in ITC format tournaments. Took 5th at a local tournament and I've fought my fair share of nasty with it. Only armies that I really fear are Eldar, Tau, and certain CSM alpha strike lists if I don't get Hammer and Anvil. If your opponent has six squads of Oblits and you don't get Hammer and Anvil you're kind of screwed. 

[Prot]

I created this thread so I can figure out how other Mars players are having success so hopefully that puts into context what I'm about to say next.... How are you kicking butt with that list???

 

Okay I realize I face Chaos Alpha strike probably too much. Astra is dominating my distance/shooting phase and tabletop real estate. Heavy Psychics (Let's say an ITC level of them) make it extremely difficult to fend of Warp Time, and I'm also talking about heavy Psyker Nid lists.... which can be brutal shut down armies with the potential to also be into you T1.

 

The list you present would have a good foot print, but I just don't understand where the punch comes from? Are you getting that much mileage out of 4 DakkaBots, 3 Destroyers, and 2 Neutronagers?

 

If so, then I have to concede at this point I must be taking a poor approach to my games. I know we also play with fairly dense (ITC style) terrain table set ups. (LoS blocking in the center is a given).

 

BUT one thing I find very interesting is this:

Dominus (CP generation warlord trait, autocaduceus)

 

 

What can you tell me about doing this over taking Cawl as the Warlord? How often is it kicking in?

[synthaside]

I can comment on the CP generation front it depends on how spammy your opponent is some are much more frugal with their use of CP 
but I would say that it generates me 2-3 CP per game.   Which is not insignificant at all, that's a free wrath of mars , the thing its compounding its a 1 in 6 chance every time you or your opponent spend a CP so overage thats  12 times a game , So 2 but in reality its more often as the more you win the better your odds get as your spending them AGAIN ;-)

I don't really rate the Autocaducues myself, I don't find my tech-priests Domini are playing the repair bot role, i'd be happier to use machine spirit resurgent stratagem and then again try to regen CP to make my onager fight at full strength or repair it with a seer , you can always CP re-roll the repair ...  anyway and again try to win the CP back 

I just don't see the benefit there are much better relics that can bring the pain to but I'm using TPD's aggressively so equip them as such with the Omniscient mask or psudegeneator.

[Feral_80]

If you want to win 'easy' against Astra Militarum, go full Stygies. -1 hit alone is enough to make most AM units basically useless. 

 

It is a squalid way to play and a really awful concept (you cannot hit me, I win. Booh) but it works, and rather than the players we should blame GW for introducing such a game-changing mechanic in a d6-based game. It puts BS 4+ armies out of the game, quite literally: think about it, it's definitely not by chance that 'once overpowered' AM armies have simply disappeared from the latest great tournament rankings.

 

AdMech Stygies is certainly not as broken as Eldar Alaitoc, but the concept is the same.

[Subtle Discord]

I created this thread so I can figure out how other Mars players are having success so hopefully that puts into context what I'm about to say next.... How are you kicking butt with that list???

 

Okay I realize I face Chaos Alpha strike probably too much. Astra is dominating my distance/shooting phase and tabletop real estate. Heavy Psychics (Let's say an ITC level of them) make it extremely difficult to fend of Warp Time, and I'm also talking about heavy Psyker Nid lists.... which can be brutal shut down armies with the potential to also be into you T1.

To me, this seems like you're having an issue with your local meta less than the AdMech codex. It should go without saying that the ecosystem of opponents is ultimately the deciding factor for how any army is going to perform on the table, and it sounds like you're playing in an environment that leans distinctly towards competitive play. Naturally, there's nothing wrong with this but I really think the current limitations of the AdMech codex are simply going to be a handicap that'll be hard to overcome against a well-played competitive leaning list.

 

I see the AdMech faction as one that is still maturing and there's really no straightforward way out of the growing pains without allies to fill the gaps. Without fliers, dedicated transports, a few more HQ options, some type of psychic phase presence, and a sprinkling of other tweaks and additions, the AdMech are going to struggle with an opponent that is willing to put pressure on those weak points.

 

I know you're wanting to avoid allies, but it makes me wonder if a Super Heavy surrounded by lots of low-cost AM Troops to create the bulk and provide a bit of psychic presence, allied with AdMech adding Breachers/Destroyers as Troops and other Elite and Heavy Support elements. Done right there's nothing stopping you from using the Skitarii or some other kit-bash as the counts-as guardsmen to keep the visual theme consistent. Personally, it's one idea I've got that's driving me to create a mini Ordinatus as a counts-as Baneblade (or other SH) as a showcase model for my collection, but it will need some Guard to surround it, to do it properly.

 

Sorry, I suspect that this ramble won't really help you much with your plight, but I guess my overarching point is that I don't think it's you and your application of the tools you have at your disposal that's the issue, but it's that you're missing key tools through no fault of your own and until the AdMech faction gets polished a bit more there's going to be limitations that will be hard to out-play.

[LT_CLAWS]

I too struggle with mars. I dropped mars and cawl and went to stygiies and started kicking tail. Allows for a lot more options and such. I don't rely on stratagems and canticles as my go to but more as tools in my toolbox.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I created this thread so I can figure out how other Mars players are having success so hopefully that puts into context what I'm about to say next.... How are you kicking butt with that list???

 

Okay I realize I face Chaos Alpha strike probably too much. Astra is dominating my distance/shooting phase and tabletop real estate. Heavy Psychics (Let's say an ITC level of them) make it extremely difficult to fend of Warp Time, and I'm also talking about heavy Psyker Nid lists.... which can be brutal shut down armies with the potential to also be into you T1.

 

The list you present would have a good foot print, but I just don't understand where the punch comes from? Are you getting that much mileage out of 4 DakkaBots, 3 Destroyers, and 2 Neutronagers?

 

If so, then I have to concede at this point I must be taking a poor approach to my games. I know we also play with fairly dense (ITC style) terrain table set ups. (LoS blocking in the center is a given).

 

BUT one thing I find very interesting is this:

Dominus (CP generation warlord trait, autocaduceus)

 

 

What can you tell me about doing this over taking Cawl as the Warlord? How often is it kicking in?

 

To address all of your points:

 

I have yet to play this list against Guard, I honestly have no idea how it would go. Something tells me that it largely will depend on who gets the first turn and what the terrain looks like. If I have first turn and there's very little hiding his tanks and artillery from LOS I will likely win. Same could be said for the Guard player. 

 

I did mention that I fear Chaos Oblit alpha strike. That's because I recently got creamed by it. So yeah, definitely a weakness there. 

 

I have yet to fight a psychic heavy list. This is because my local meta is using the beta smite rules so they have become less prevalent lately. 

 

As for my local meta, I play A LOT of nurgle. I mean A LOT. I would even say 60% of my local is some mixture of nurgle daemons and death guard. Tough, but slow, ponderous, foot slogging majority of the time. Even when using deep strike shenanigans (for example, deep striking Mortarion when you still could) the majority of the local competition was not playing a lightning fast army. In many of my games against pure Death Guard, it sometimes feels like the Admech codex was made to directly counter it. That may not be the case at all and it could be my opponents misplaying, but it does feel that way at times. 

 

Not taking Cawl as the warlord was the best decision I've ever made. When he is, the extra 3'' from the aura often don't matter, I still get all of his abilities, I can throw him into the thick of combat, use his large footprint to body block, and it makes him a much less juicy target for my opponent. If my opponent can take out my re-rolls, my canticle manipulation, and my warlord all in one, that makes for an absolutely must kill target. Not giving up warlord, and getting that CP regeneration changes a lot more than you would think for an opponent's target priority. Cawl's no slouch in combat either, I want him in the fight. I take less risk by not having him as my warlord.

 

To answer your question about punch, yeah I would say I do get enough firepower from those sources. My opening move if I have good enough targets, is often the following:

 

1) Shootybots enter double fire mode

2) Elimination Volley for kataphrons + shooty bots

3) Wrath of Mars for shooty bots

 

Also, you would be surprised at what 8 Infiltrators can do given the right situation and resources. 

 

My only ITC tournament experience was playing 2 Nurgle players and 1 Blood Angel player. I went 2 in 1, losing only to a regular opponent of mine, a nurlge/dg player who knows my list super well. Blood Angels got annihilated. Funny story, so the BA player drops his captain Slamguinius, the TH/SS guy that everyone fears. Doesn't make the charge because he gave the 3D6 to his Sang Guard. Cool, no big deal. Well this character is now left out in the open. My Infiltrators flank him, charge him, I pop the +1 to hit stratagem, and ol' Captain Slam dies before he even gets to swing. Taser goads exploding on a 5+ hurts. Praise the Omnissiah.

 

 

To me, this seems like you're having an issue with your local meta less than the AdMech codex. It should go without saying that the ecosystem of opponents is ultimately the deciding factor for how any army is going to perform on the table, and it sounds like you're playing in an environment that leans distinctly towards competitive play. Naturally, there's nothing wrong with this but I really think the current limitations of the AdMech codex are simply going to be a handicap that'll be hard to overcome against a well-played competitive leaning list.

 

I see the AdMech faction as one that is still maturing and there's really no straightforward way out of the growing pains without allies to fill the gaps. Without fliers, dedicated transports, a few more HQ options, some type of psychic phase presence, and a sprinkling of other tweaks and additions, the AdMech are going to struggle with an opponent that is willing to put pressure on those weak points.

 

 

Yep. Most important thing IMO is that we have literally zero "Fly" keyword in our codex as well. No transports doesn't matter, transports suck in competitive right now anyways for imperial factions. No psychic and no Fly really hurts. IMO, Admech are a Rock, Paper, Scissors army. We can counter some things super hard, but we can also get hard countered. There's not a whole that can stand up to a Cawl+Dakkabot+Wrath of Mars fusillade, but that can be danced around by a savy opponent. 

 

 

I too struggle with mars. I dropped mars and cawl and went to stygiies and started kicking tail. Allows for a lot more options and such. I don't rely on stratagems and canticles as my go to but more as tools in my toolbox.

 

I think once Dark Eldar makes its way into the meta, more specifically as a single Black Heart detachment being taken by Eldar players in addition to their standard Reapers + Shining Spears shenanigans, Mars will start to be less and less attractive. Against pure Dark Eldar, shutting down double fire isn't a problem, because DE will die to a stiff breeze and we'll still have WoM available as well. Same thing the other way around if they stop Wrath of Mars instead of double fire. Same thing with Elimination Volley if you take advantage of that strat. We aren't necessarily dependent on the combo to win against pure DE, but against Eldar in addition we most definitely would be. 

 

Though, honestly, this is going to go for any other army that pins its entire strategy on use of a stratagem or combo of stratagems to win. Blood Angels specifically comes to mind. I expect Agents of Vect to have quite sweeping effects on the meta. 

[beefeb]

My mechanicus mars lists are usually a mix of vanguards, onagers and a knight or two. Onagers are usually 2x neutrons and 1 icarus ot 1 of each.

 

Theknight is the obvious centrepiece of your battleline. I generally tryfor fire saturation on specificunits and late game seizure of objectives.

 

Ive used allied militarum tempestus in valkyries for securing objectives and mobile fireteams on occasions.

 

Ive not used armigers at all yet..im waiting on the individual kits but see they arent too popular....why is that???

[lash144]

Because they are really not good for their points... For the same points you can get a Neutronager and a Dragoon, which are doing the shooting and melee part better.

[Omnissiahs Fury]

For me the fact that they don't work with anything else, no benefit from FW dogma, not benefitting fully from tech priests .etc. I like my army to work together.

 

I LOVE the models and the way they play, but as above I can get a neutronager and a dragoon that DO benefit from the rest of the army.

[BolterZorro]

my gess is that Armiger WILL become popular, as soon as there are new weapon options. Why? It is an extremly mobile unit, 3 of them won't be super expensive and you get a 3 PC for that. 

My bet is: take 4 armiger now. Get one complete kit when available and duplicate the weapons for your 4 initial  Armigers. You now have 5 full featured mini knight alowing many possibilities, and way more with only one IK!  ( 3 + (2+IK) ) or 2x (2+IK) or ...etc..

Mini knight will be great with back up of walkers or even dragons, scitarii or priest, covered by a IK or Onagers. Add the Dominus to repair and win your games!

 

At least you won't have to stay on your back line all the game, and mars won't be the first choice either. That's how I see my (actully on construction) admech army, an argressive one, on movment

[Charlo]

Some of the other weapon options have to be cheaper - Melta is always very expensive and this one is no exception I bet.

[Heliomanes]

Melta and the big chainsword are also best used against targets that we have plenty of options against already, most of them on a more specialized and thus more efficient platform. That's in addition to the problem of being overcosted... Fingers crossed for the codex. I love the models and intend to keep playing them, results be damned.

[Prot]

I really hate to do this but I’m thinking of going into a Stygies detachment just for Dragoons and I guess an HQ. I really don’t know how to paint them though. Because I’d still use them as mars when I play a Brigade.

[Subtle Discord]

Consider some method to invert how you'd normally paint them, or do a split/quartered scheme. I'm pondering the same dilemma, how to make a separate detachment and/or dogma distinct but cohesive so the models aren't locked into the role.