Usage of Power Armor ‘Line’ Troops

[Schlitzaf]

This is just a conversation I’ve seen had on almost every board on this forum with Power Armored Troops, basically devolving “(Power Armor)” Unit is awful, the “(Chaff/Rough GEQ)” is better, in every way.

 

Now this thread isn’t to discuss if and why that is the case or suggest how we could ‘fix’ the rules. Instead, I am hoping to discuss what role those (Power Armor) Units play. My personal argument that I have made elsewhere, is that best use of Power Armored Units, are as a core midfield ‘center’.

 

That is how I use my Intercessors and Crusader Squads. And generally speaking that has successfully worked and if those units were instead Gaurdsman, I wouldn’t have been able to properly contest the center position.

 

The reasons for that, been Gaurdsman die to ‘chaff’ shooting. A Marine Squad can easily vaporize a squad of Gaurdsman a turn with battle shock. Or the squad gets wiped before it can hit. While my marines receive the charge and then counter. Or once I declare and engage, the ability to reliably get my models in so they can actually attack where my Gaurdsman could not.

 

I do use Gaurdsman, as anchors, flankers/bullies and counter assault. I find they are better suited for those roles than Marines, being cheap to no subtract from rest of your force. I mention this, because my Gaurdsman do not function as what I often call ‘line’ Units. And often how I see folks trying to compare and use ‘GEQ’ > Marines. GEQ ability to take and hold a position, is a slog and ultimately an attrition fight. When you have objectives being scored at EoT. You need quickly push the enemy off the objective. While being able to hold against a counter assault.

 

Now I perhaps I am an outlier, and my experiences with my Marines are ‘wrong’. But having tried while not literally Gaurdsman as Line/Flanking) Units, (Skitarri for those curious). The strength 3, and inability to engage in melee properly. Meant they faltered time and time again.

 

So....just to begin. I find a PA MeQ Unit best use this edition is as your center ‘line’, a force of 40-50 Wounds in Marines supported by 3 characters. To take central/key position, is the best use of Marines in a combined arms army and as a whole are better able to do so than a GEQ Unit. And taking extensive MeQ is a recipe for diseaster. Because those squads lack functional durability, unable to use stratagems like counter assault (espacially counter assault) and aren’t scary enough to threaten. And killed by ‘chaff fire’ (defined as 4 Plasmas, 6 Bolter, + around 8ish STR 4 attacks).

 

Agree? Disagree? Any other thoughts.

[MARK0SIAN]

The two wounds on intercessors can make them tough to shift from key objectives however I’ve found that marines of all types just die too quickly, the weight of fire that can be brought to bear and the plethora of AP modifying weaponry means they can’t tank anything like they used to.

 

They do last a bit longer than a guard squad but not the three guard squads I can get for the same price. For that reason I rely on guard to hold the middle and use marines for other roles. But this might just be the way I play, I tend to prefer my line infantry as a screen whilst elite or heavy units do the actual work.

 

My philosophy with line infantry is: They’re going to die, almost as soon as they’re targeted, no point wasting more than the bare minimum points on them.

 

I wish it wasn’t that way, and I know it’s not true for many forces in 8th but my experience is that it’s true for the armies I play.

 

So when using PA line troops, I tend to focus them on a flank and try and push forward with them, even though they’ll die they are a good distraction carnifex :)

[jeffersonian000]

Currently, the best PA Infantry in the game are Battle Sister Squads. They are cheap yet still pack a Marine’s shooting stat-line, and come in Guard-like squad sizes.

 

SJ

[Ficinus]

Battle Sisters pack a Marine's punch and can get double special weapons or special and heavy on five sister squads allowing them to pack 2-4 special, 0-2 heavy, and 2 Combi weapons in a single rhino. They're great!

[Slave to Darkness]

Maybe GW should change a Tactical squad loadout. fluffwise easily done since Guillimans reformation and it might increase sales of Tact squads, great for those who dont want to buy those Primaris abominations.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

The problem is 40-50 MEQ wounds is 460-700 points...minimum. Before upgrades. If you're spending close to 50% of your points on that, it better not fold as easily as it does.

 

MEQ are actually quite sturdy point for point compared to most troops other than the ridiculous GEQ outlier which is completely unbalanced. The problem is their firepower is the lowest point for point out of all basic troops in the game, and their sturdiness is not so great that they make the unit good.

[Schlitzaf]

Um 40-50 MeQ wounds should run you about 600 points where are you getting 1000? From.

[ERJAK]

Um 40-50 MeQ wounds should run you about 600 points where are you getting 1000? From.

Sternguard maybe?

 

The problem with marines (and it is more of a 'marine' issue than a PA issue) is that they pay for stats they don't use and have really poor loadout options.

 

Battle sister squads see some competitive play because they's dirt cheap for a surprising amount of firepower. 5 battle sisters with 3 stormbolters is a nasty little fire base for 51pts.

 

Intercessors see some competitive play because they're actually relatively cheap on a per wound basis and have a 30" range that make them solid objective campers.

 

Tacticals see play because people don't like painting scouts...and that's about it.

 

If bss were 1ppm cheaper, they'd actually be nuts. If intercessors had better weapon loadouts, they'd be a go to unit for holding down the backline of an army.

 

Tacticals are always going to be hamstrung by paying for stats they can't use.

[Skaorn]

You can always use your stats so being good at something shouldn't be discounted because you aren't specialized for using it. In earlier editions there were times I charged with Firewarriors to try to prevent a chain of sweeping advances by denying my opponent the extra charge movement to their initial target unit. Doing something like that works a lot better with a decent stat line and a power fist.

[Panzer]

I'm actually pretty pleased with my Intercessors performance as a solid center and if the other units weren't so expensive I'd think about getting 10 more.

That being said, I obviously see the issue with Tactical squads and agree with everything being said so far. Imo GW screwed up there on an army design level by creating units in other sections that can do everything Tacticals can do, but better. They are simply too redundant to justify their cost inefficiency in a Marine army. I also think that GW realized that and is going to fix that long term with Primaris but that won't really help non-Primaris Marine armies obviously.

That horde type units are so much better than elite line troops is a whole different problem.

Now to the actual useage.
Well Intercessors are pretty straight forward with their Bolt Rifles. Push them towards objectives/the opponent and just establish a bit of board control by simply being there, doing a little bit of damage and by being generally a bit harder to shift on a per model basis than other line troops.
As for Tacticals, I like give them Lascannons to give a bit more redundancy to my anti-tank. No opponent really likes to having to chew through 4 generic PA guys to get to the one he originally wanted to kill. It's mostly a psychological effect and makes my Lascannons last way longer than on Devs or Preds. Only "issue" here is that you need quite a few squads to make it work.
Why not use Tacticals as center? Easy, because the game is these days designed with Marines as standard infantry in mind, so every army has more than enough means to get rid of them easily. If the game were designed with GEQ as standard infantry in mind, Marines would look more like current Custodes and be much more resilient with a much higher anti-infantry output.

 

EDIT: typos

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Um 40-50 MeQ wounds should run you about 600 points where are you getting 1000? From.

 

"Before upgrades". Spending so many points on such a mediocre unit and not even taking advantage of the wargear slots they possess is even worse. You're better off spamming Scouts or allies at that point.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, there's an issue with MEQ durability but it stems from the often times assbackwards rules of 8th. For all the praise the current rules get, they're garbage in many aspects that 7th were not. The big one is the wounding and AP mechanics, that's what's killing MEQ. Even my Plague Marines are squishy, especially compared to prior editions. But it is what it is, I've invested too much into my army to sell out and throw down cheap IG or Cultists or whatever. Hopefully 9th rebalances it so that the supposed super soldiers actually are super soldiers, even at the cost of more points for better durability and kill power. 

[Panzer]

I agree that the AP mechanic puts armored units at a disadvantage, however imo the 7th edition AP mechanic was even worse.

[DuskRaider]

GW went bananas with low AP weaponry in 7th, something that's a lot easier to reel back in than what they've done now. 

[Volt]

Yeah, there's an issue with MEQ durability but it stems from the often times assbackwards rules of 8th. For all the praise the current rules get, they're garbage in many aspects that 7th were not. The big one is the wounding and AP mechanics, that's what's killing MEQ. Even my Plague Marines are squishy, especially compared to prior editions. But it is what it is, I've invested too much into my army to sell out and throw down cheap IG or Cultists or whatever. Hopefully 9th rebalances it so that the supposed super soldiers actually are super soldiers, even at the cost of more points for better durability and kill power. 

The problem is that GW's entire 40k mechanics is founded upon sheer insanity for a game system. If you want to see how to do proper armor mechanics, look up Lion Rampant or Games Workshop HIstoricals (LOTR too). Now those books are how you do a proper rules system and balance uber units out.

[DuskRaider]

I came to 40K from Rackham's Confrontation which dealt with armour and wounding MUCH better.

[totgeboren]

 

That is how I use my Intercessors and Crusader Squads. 

 

Now I perhaps I am an outlier, and my experiences with my Marines are ‘wrong’.

 

A few things to note here. When people say 'Power armour troops are shockingly bad', the main offender people are talking about is Tactical Squads and CSM. There are other PA Troops that function a bit better, such as Crusaders and Intercessors, or Sisters of Battle.

 

This means your experiences are not entirely representative. I mean, GK strike squads and SoB are also PA Troops, but they play quite differently, and lumping them in under the same category of Troops isn't really all that useful.

[Trevak Dal]

So there should be "space marine Bolters" and "Bolters". Space marines, Csms, etc get "space marine Bolters" and have a storm Bolter profile.

 

Scouts and sisters have Bolters.

 

Space marine storm Bolters have rapid fire 4.

 

Bolters keep the same profile as now.

 

Grey Knights get "grey knight stormbolters" which are +1 strength.

 

Everything stays at current costs.

 

All space marine/csm/da/ba/gk/dg/ units get +1 attack.

 

Everything stays the same cost.

 

Space marines/dreds aren't affected by heavy weapon penalty.

 

This might be radical and Wardian, but :cusss sake

[Claws and Effect]

My Tacticals have been holding up fairly well. Maybe I'm an outlier.

 

Volume of fire is what tends to kill them. I'd like to see anything stand up to a unit of 20 Termigants with devourers. 60 shots is hard to shrug off for anything.

[Kinstryfe]

I think a big problem, just from the games I've played with guard (admittedly pre-codex) and a few games with marines is that weight of shooting with less effective weapons trumps much less shooting with more effective weapons. I think something like doubling the shots of many Astartes weapons may help. There's no reason a Marine bolter has to be the same as a guard or sisters bolter. Something like current stormbolter stats would start to make sense, being able to shred light Infantry up close. The huge proliferation of high powered weapons doesn't help either. I almost think Marines need an extra wound, or point of toughness or a small invulnerable save or something to make them as durable as they should be. I'm not sure what the exact solution would be, but power armored troops in general just don't seem as durable or powerful as they should be. Maybe the humble guardsman should be the new standard troop analogue and PA troops can start being better all around.

[DuskRaider]

I'd also like to point out that I think your mileage may vary depending on the type of scene you're playing in. If your gaming scene is more meta neckbeard ultra-competitive then no, you're not going to have a good time with PA troops. If it's more laid back, narrative and hobby driven then you'll enjoy yourself more. If the players in your locale don't mesh with your interests try finding others. 

[Panzer]

Yeah of course. Local meta changes everything. That's why I usually try to ignore my local meta when posting stuff here and specifically mention when something works/doesn't work for me personally.

[Schlitzaf]

 

 

Um 40-50 MeQ wounds should run you about 600 points where are you getting 1000? From.

"Before upgrades". Spending so many points on such a mediocre unit and not even taking advantage of the wargear slots they possess is even worse. You're better off spamming Scouts or allies at that point.

Umm....40 Tacticals is 500ish Points, give or take depending on Loadout, you will end up 40-50 Points up grades (40ish is more common/better, Plas/CombiPlas/HvyBolter) brings you to 660. If you instead replace two 10 man Tacticals with Intercessors your in low 50 range and if you include a 3rd Intercessors Squad as I would personally in that setup your only 600.

 

Where in the world are are you getting 1000 Points?

[Zodd1888]

@Schiltzaf You're correct, his points are wrong. I think he may have been alluding to the need for support HQ's for relevance of tacticals.

 

That said, would you rather 40ish tacticals or 160ish Cultists for the same points? That's a massive difference in wound count, even when taking the save of the PA troops into consideration. Weight of dice comes into play significantly in these circumstances.

 

I just feel like 4/5 point models are far better at the jobs of our 13 point Astartes. Tacticals need a point drop and something special, like what Scouts do...

[Wargamer]

People seem to think SoB are a solid unit, but Tac squads are not. My guess is this is down to bloat - the Tac squad is paying for S4, which they often don't use. If they're meant to lend a hand in combat, then their upgrades are wrong - the heavy and special weapon point to them being mid-range combat unit who can peck at things from long range.

 

This is "jack of all trades" at its finest. It sounds good on paper, but two specialists working together will typically do better than two "jack of all" units excelling at nothing.