DogWelder Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 Recently I was reading 'Yarrick: Imperial Creed' and a conversation between Yarrick and a Sister of Battle on the nature of hope in the Imperium stuck out to me: ‘Free will still counts for something. We are not foredoomed,’ I told her. She said, ‘We must act as if we were not, true.’ I don't think Yarrick means to say that there is no hope. Its just that he understand the Sister's point of view that it is better to believe that there is no hope even if there is, because it will motivate them to fight even harder without any limits now that they have nothing to lose. With the return of Guilliman though, this changes the dynamic completely because now you have someone at the highest level of Imperial authority that believes the opposite: that people are much more loyal/willing to fight if they do have something to lose because then they know that their sacrifices would be in service of human prosperity and progress instead of hatred of aliens or traitors. This is kind of the belief system behind Ultramar and when Guilliman talked about how he wanted to use it as a base to spread his influence throughout the galaxy (in Dark Imperium), I believe this is what he meant. He doesn't want every single planet to have skyscrapers and futuristic Roman architecture but rather he wants to spread this idea that hope is invaluable to any human society; that it should be encouraged and used in the service of humanity rather than repressed like the Imperium was doing for 10,000 years. What do you guys think about this theory and how the nature of core Imperial beliefs will change with the recent events? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Yeah... I don't think the Sister's reply to Yarrick makes any sense. She's saying that if you don't have any hope, you can fight without limits. Maybe that's true, but a lot of people if they don't have hope won't fight at all; there's nothing to fight for. Hope is a much more tangible motivator. Even if there is a slight glimmer of success, you fight like hell to attain/protect whatever that is. You fight harder because you don't want to lose; without hope there is no reason to care. I think the writer might have confused the concept of hope with a dynamic from Sun Tzu, that you need to leave open an escape route to a routing army, or else they will never surrender/retreat but will instead fight to the death. This is true, an enemy with no hope of escape will fight to the death, but I would argue that a soldier that sees victory as a possibility might fight even harder, as he's fighting for survival. So yeah, hope is a powerful motivator. You want to grind it out of your enemies and encourage it in your followers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5050916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 What you’ve picked up on here is very interesting, and I believe it to be true. It is the way Ultramar has worked, amd it is the way Guilliman presents the future to humanity. What’s funny though is I don’t know if he actually believes it anymore. He’s hidden the library of secrets away (Imperium Secondus) and his own faith in humanity was shaken when he woke. Then as we know his conversation with dad was so disappointing (no one like to be called a tool) that he chose to hide the details. But at this point in the story the picture is so bleak with the Cicatrix Maledictum, etc that I don’t think having no hope works to get that extra mile out of someone or something. I think at some point it leads to ultimate despair, perhaps suicide or increased cult activity or even people succumbing to Chaos. Guilliman and the outward push with Primaris / marine reinforcements are the light at the end of the tunnel Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5050918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaorn Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 One thing to keep in mind is that a SoB and many others in the Imperium are religious fanatics and replace their hope with faith. In their mind, they've won any fight because they believe in their god and even a loosing fight is just a test of faith. Even if their enemy wins the battle, they know they will win the war because god. In order to actually break their faith you have to get them to question it, otherwise they have all the hope they need. Guilleman does not believe the Emperor is a god and is a rational person so of course he will think in terms of needing to provide a hope for victory. I don't know much about Yarrick, but seeing as he is a Commisar, I suspect he's closer to the SoB's way of thinking so the conversation about whether you need hope or just embrace your test of faith seems like a legitimate conversation. I think it would be very poor writing if the return of the Primarchs didn't cause some kind of religious schism as they're likely to react to thinking like this as if they were dealing with someone wearing a sign stating "The End is Nigh", at best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5050922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slave to Darkness Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I hope there a religious schism, Lorgar was chastised for doing what the whole Imperium is doing now. Hell he even wrote the space bible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5050972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Well, the Ynnari helped bringing back Guilliman for the sole purpose of giving the IoM a symbol of hope to strengthen them enough to stand between the Eldar and the forces of Chaos. Heretical as I am I'm more willing to believe the rationality of an Eldar witch than the rationality of some SoB. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5050977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 What do you guys think about this theory and how the nature of core Imperial beliefs will change with the recent events? Well, beyond "Emperor*: Yes," I'm not sure one can pinpoint a set of "core" Imperial beliefs. The Imperium's incalculably huge and ancient beyond modern reckoning. It's twice as old as recorded human history, and has single planets with populations greater than the number of humans that have ever actually been born. It's so, so, so big, and incredibly old. Nearly any belief system imaginable could have come and gone among populaces that number in the billions and still it'd barely be a footnote in local history - if it's even remembered at all. * Your experience may vary. Also includes local sun gods, mythical all-father types and elemental force embodiments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aramis K Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Recently I was reading 'Yarrick: Imperial Creed' and a conversation between Yarrick and a Sister of Battle on the nature of hope in the Imperium stuck out to me: ‘Free will still counts for something. We are not foredoomed,’ I told her. She said, ‘We must act as if we were not, true.’ I don't read that quote as being about hope directly; I think it's about free will Vs destiny, which is a classic theological debate. The sister is saying our destiny is fixed but we must behave well anyway because that is how our destiny unfolds. So she disagrees with Yarick but admits that in practice we behave the same either way. The paradox of free will and predestination. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Yeah, I don't really agree about the hope bit either. Yarrick says that we are not condemned to failure and destruction... And her response is essentially Yes we are, but you keep telling yourself that. If anything, I think the exchange exemplifies the tone of 40k: Individual: "I matter!" 40k: "Awww, you're cute." Individual: "My choices matter!" 40k: "Really? Watch this..." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 Well, the answer would depend of what your take of the macro-setting is. I started in Rogue trader and still holds to the lore that there is a (very) slim hope for humanity's survival. In that setting individual choices can matter, but often they don't since it's a big and grim universe. If you started in third-fourth edition, your view is probably that's there is no hope for humanity whatsoever and either chaos or tyranids is going to 'nom nom' the universe. In that setting the individual choices, or any choices ever, don't have any meaning (a bit boring in my humble opinion) I do hope there is a conflict in the future between the returning primarch and the Ecclesiarchy. It would be a nice setting for good stories. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I think we should probably define what "hope" means, here. Is it the idea that humanity survives for another hundred years? Another thousand? A million? Everything ends, after all, even humanity. For me, anyway, hope only really seems relevant in a very immediate, person-in-the-moment kind of sense. In a macro sense, it only really seems a question of who/what survives, and for how long. 40K is a setting with billions upon billions of people in it, with very few of them having much of a global-scale POV of the galaxy's state, so I don't even know that "hope" is something you can say 40K really has or doesn't at that scale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051409 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wargamer Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I've never seen the Imperium's cause as hopeless - in fact, having that pushed down my throat is part of what pushed me out of the hobby. The Imperium was "hopeless" in that it could never win, but it was also too big to fail. In short, nobody could win and the galaxy's territories were ever shifting, changing hands, etc. It sort of ties into the motifs we see over and over - how every Ork world appears to be built using Human buildings and vehicles as the baseline; how every remote mountain peak or jungle interior hides a Webway portal amidst Eldar ruins; and how Necron tombs slumber under every world. Territory changes hands over and over in an unending cycle of conquest and loss. I don't know if I've seen enough of the 42nd millennium to decide if hope is returning, but simply ignoring everything published in 5th, 6th and 7th provides more than enough hope to 40K as it is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I think we should probably define what "hope" means, here. Is it the idea that humanity survives for another hundred years? Another thousand? A million? Everything ends, after all, even humanity. For me, anyway, hope only really seems relevant in a very immediate, person-in-the-moment kind of sense. In a macro sense, it only really seems a question of who/what survives, and for how long. 40K is a setting with billions upon billions of people in it, with very few of them having much of a global-scale POV of the galaxy's state, so I don't even know that "hope" is something you can say 40K really has or doesn't at that scale. Agreed. Unfortunately out of likes, so have a quote. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zuvassin Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 I took her response more like this: "If someone can hope they'll survive this, they may be motivated to not engage in an insane charge because they'll want to take every caution out of hope they'll be one of the X% that survive." Whereas "If you've already accepted that there is zero percent chance ANYONE survives this, you may as well die in that insane charge (that we need in order to possibly win)." To use the type of pop culture/history that 40k is built on, I'm thinking her world view is the world view of the 300 in, well, "300". There's no expectation for survival or a miracle (ie no hope of personal survival), so theoretically I am now willing to do whatever it takes to make the Persians suffer before the totally-expected and accepted death of myself and our side losing the battle. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I think we should probably define what "hope" means, here. Is it the idea that humanity survives for another hundred years? Another thousand? A million? Everything ends, after all, even humanity. For me, anyway, hope only really seems relevant in a very immediate, person-in-the-moment kind of sense. In a macro sense, it only really seems a question of who/what survives, and for how long. 40K is a setting with billions upon billions of people in it, with very few of them having much of a global-scale POV of the galaxy's state, so I don't even know that "hope" is something you can say 40K really has or doesn't at that scale. I'd define hope as trying to keep humanity going for another generation. That's long enough for anyone currently alive to care, but not too long they say " it!" I took her response more like this: "If someone can hope they'll survive this, they may be motivated to not engage in an insane charge because they'll want to take every caution out of hope they'll be one of the X% that survive." Whereas "If you've already accepted that there is zero percent chance ANYONE survives this, you may as well die in that insane charge (that we need in order to possibly win)." To use the type of pop culture/history that 40k is built on, I'm thinking her world view is the world view of the 300 in, well, "300". There's no expectation for survival or a miracle (ie no hope of personal survival), so theoretically I am now willing to do whatever it takes to make the Persians suffer before the totally-expected and accepted death of myself and our side losing the battle. The 300 analogy just points out how ridiculous the Sister's point is. The Spartans were fighting with the hope of buying time for the Greeks to get their stuff in order to marshal an alliance against the Persians. Yes they were all going to die and they all knew that, but they were dying with the hope of getting something they thought was valuable. Though, now that I read the Sister's line again, she might actually be saying the OPPOSITE of what the OP thinks. She says, "We must act as if we were not [foredoomed], true." So maybe she actually knows hope is a motivator, but personally doesn't have any left. She may want to pretend to have hope to be motivated, but no longer has the capacity to feel it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 What do you guys think about this theory and how the nature of core Imperial beliefs will change with the recent events? Well, beyond "Emperor*: Yes," I'm not sure one can pinpoint a set of "core" Imperial beliefs. The Imperium's incalculably huge and ancient beyond modern reckoning. It's twice as old as recorded human history, and has single planets with populations greater than the number of humans that have ever actually been born. It's so, so, so big, and incredibly old. Nearly any belief system imaginable could have come and gone among populaces that number in the billions and still it'd barely be a footnote in local history - if it's even remembered at all. * Your experience may vary. Also includes local sun gods, mythical all-father types and elemental force embodiments. Regardless of whether it is adhered to in toto on or not, the Imperium most definitely has a core orthodoxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Though, now that I read the Sister's line again, she might actually be saying the OPPOSITE of what the OP thinks. She says, "We must act as if we were not [foredoomed], true." So maybe she actually knows hope is a motivator, but personally doesn't have any left. She may want to pretend to have hope to be motivated, but no longer has the capacity to feel it. That's actually what I was thinking is happening there but everybody else seemed so convinced otherwise I thought it's just my english failing me lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinstryfe Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I really don't get how people think the 40k is defined by a lack of hope. If the Imperium had no hope, they would hunker down, stop expanding, and wait to die. But they've always been about expansion, because the Galaxy is humanities' birthright. The average imperial doesn't need hope, because they KNOW that The Emperor protects. On top of that, the current situation is: -The biggest Orks and Waaagh since Ullanor is brewing -Tyranid hive fleets are encircling the Imperium. -The biggest warp rift ever seen cut the Imperium in half, making communication and travel significantly harder, as well as giving the forces of the Ruinous Powers easier access to realspace. -The T'au are expanding even further and becoming a bigger threat. -Necrons are awakening in numbers not seen since the War in Heaven. -The Aeldari factions are starting to unify. +One Primarch has returned with fancy jumbo marines. I can never wrap my head around the idea that humanity is in its worst position in ten millennia, but all people see is the setting as suddenly being full of Hope because a Primarch returned.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Well 40k is pretty much defined by a lack of hope (among many other things) ... for the player/reader. WE know that the Imperium is screwed and is only barely hanging on. However that doesn't mean the people living in that universe know all that. They just experienced Cadia falling, the galaxy splitting in two and Daemon Primarchs returning. That of course is something that would anybody lose a good chunk of hope ... if they even know about all those things that is. However there's a big difference between we, as outsiders with all the meta information, knowing there's no/barely no hope and the in-universe beings knowing it which is something many people confuse I think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5051953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 AH !!! another Hope thread . But what about Change . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5052097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 WE know that the Imperium is screwed and is only barely hanging on. That is debatable. In the earlier editions there were certainly a hope for mankind and, even if the setting has been getting grimmer and darker over the years, there has always been nuggets of hope for the future of mankind. Even before the Cicatrix Maledictum the black stone had the potential to close the warp rifts, the Imperium has the technology to develop toxin that can take out whole hive fleets, etc. So even if the setting is suitably grim and dark there is no hundred percent, certain unavoidable doom for mankind (discounting the heat death of the universe ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5052188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 WE know that the Imperium is screwed and is only barely hanging on. That is debatable. In the earlier editions there were certainly a hope for mankind and, even if the setting has been getting grimmer and darker over the years, there has always been nuggets of hope for the future of mankind. Even before the Cicatrix Maledictum the black stone had the potential to close the warp rifts, the Imperium has the technology to develop toxin that can take out whole hive fleets, etc. So even if the setting is suitably grim and dark there is no hundred percent, certain unavoidable doom for mankind (discounting the heat death of the universe ) It got often enough said that the Imperium is ultimately screwed and is only just barely hanging on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5052212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 I don't think the apparent hope is from what has happened so much as the narrative voice of a lot of the new material. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5052251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5052256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Who is Hope? Nobody has seen her in many many years.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/#findComment-5052315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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