Skaorn Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Let's be honest, humanity has been completely screwed since the start of the Age of Strife. I mean the best time it had was when an immortal tyrant took over, created child soldier killing machines, and sent them out to wipe out other intelligent life. The worst part is that this is the best option humanity has because only the Emperor is capable of giving humanity access to FTL travel without turning to Chaos. Since then a cult of religious fanatics took over, the Emperor requires a lot human sacrifice to stay "alive", and the empire has turned into a gothic heavy metal version of the movie Brazil. A humanity that runs on atrocities committed by crazed fanatics is well worth being wiped out by the many external threats in my book. From many on the inside of the Imperium that believe in the Emperor, they don't need hope against the impossible odds they face from Xenos and heretics. They have the Emperor, so they have already won. Sorry, you loose. Your argument is invalid. Your science is all lies. We'd let you go, but your heresy is so offensive to the Emperor that we need to kill you horribly with fire for your own good. My death is just part of the Emperor's plan and even getting taken by DE is just a test of my faith so that I might be cleansed of my sins. So thank you for playing, but you have no hope against the master of all creation. Now a Commisar might have to make use of hope because they have to deal with weak and cowardly individuals on a regular basis and need to make the best use of the supplies they're given or they're not doing their best for the Emperor. Hope is cheaper than a Bolt round and giving them hope might be just enough to make up for their shaky faith that they gain an inch of ground when they die for the Emperor. In that context I see a Commisar still having that unshakable faith in the Emperor but is used to having to motivate people to push harder. In a conversation with that SoB, I see Yarrick basicly saying "We can choose to push ourselves harder for the Emperor and bring about victory" while the Sister is saying "We've already won, but we should always do our best for the Emperor". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5052318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Hope is what makes 40k compelling.The Heresy is a fight between the hopeful and the hopeless started by the symbol of that hope when it denies what it is. Hope brings the defeated sons of the 9 legions together to start a new war against the Imperium. An executioner - Yarrick - becomes a planet's symbol of hope when he replaces its corrupt leader to face an alien invasion. Guilliman becomes the symbol of hope to a dieing empire by introducing 'new' things to solve old problems. Hope is a choice. All of the Primarchs chose to have hope for their futures or gave it up when they believed they could not or would not achieve their ideals.Each of the exiled sons of the 9 legions chose to hunt Abaddon's legend even though the rest of the legions were fighting against them.Yarrick chose to keep fighting despite his leader's corruption and his own inferior power to face the invaders. Guilliman chose to fight for humanity even though the galaxy has been cut in half, the ideal empire he fought for is gone, and his father is a faceless entity little different from the Chaos Gods. Hope is the beginning of motivation because it is the expectation that an idea can be turned into a reality if the means to do so is discovered and acted out. Hope has always been a part of the setting. It's simply blatant with Guilliman's resurrection. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5052704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Hope is what makes 40k compelling. The Heresy is a fight between the hopeful and the hopeless started by the symbol of that hope when it denies what it is. Hope brings the defeated sons of the 9 legions together to start a new war against the Imperium. An executioner - Yarrick - becomes a planet's symbol of hope when he replaces its corrupt leader to face an alien invasion. Guilliman becomes the symbol of hope to a dieing empire by introducing 'new' things to solve old problems. Hope is a choice. All of the Primarchs chose to have hope for their futures or gave it up when they believed they could not or would not achieve their ideals. Each of the exiled sons of the 9 legions chose to hunt Abaddon's legend even though the rest of the legions were fighting against them. Yarrick chose to keep fighting despite his leader's corruption and his own inferior power to face the invaders. Guilliman chose to fight for humanity even though the galaxy has been cut in half, the ideal empire he fought for is gone, and his father is a faceless entity little different from the Chaos Gods. Hope is the beginning of motivation because it is the expectation that an idea can be turned into a reality if the means to do so is discovered and acted out. Hope has always been a part of the setting. It's simply blatant with Guilliman's resurrection. Your right. Its been hope in spite of impossible odds, yet now we have Primarch(s?) returning giving The Imperium a chance. So now the hope is more obvious and manifest i.e. Guilliman. There would be no reason NOT to hope for the better now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5052992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Let's be honest, humanity has been completely screwed since the start of the Age of Strife. Come on, humanity lasted another 10,000 years and is still the biggest power in the galaxy. Just because their existence hasn't been close to ideal doesn't make them doomed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5053031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheesh Mode Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 There would be no reason NOT to hope for the better now. A Warp Storm that cuts the galaxy in two and can be seen from every planet in that galaxy exists, and has cut half of the Imperium off from the Astronomicon. Hordes of Daemons and Chaos Legions bigger than any invasion seen before are being led out of the Crucius Maledictum by the Demon Primarchs. The Necron Dynasties are awaking in massive numbers. The Tyranid fleets are still growing as they enter the Eastern Fringe. The Orks are unifying. The Emperor of Mankind is dieing. There are many good reasons for people to lose hope. What the Imperium is dealing with now is far worse than what it faced during the Horus Heresy, and allegedly the only time in Human History that things have been worse has been the Age of Strife. It's pretty bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5053126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skaorn Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Come on, humanity lasted another 10,000 years and is still the biggest power in the galaxy. Just because their existence hasn't been close to ideal doesn't make them doomed. I'm gonna go with being a combo of the Spanish inquisition and nazis is far less than less than an ideal human existence. I'm pretty sure even the United Federation of Planets would choose to just bomb the crap out of the Imperium than try to make it better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5053155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggtand Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Come on, humanity lasted another 10,000 years and is still the biggest power in the galaxy. Just because their existence hasn't been close to ideal doesn't make them doomed. I'm gonna go with being a combo of the Spanish inquisition and nazis is far less than less than an ideal human existence. I'm pretty sure even the United Federation of Planets would choose to just bomb the crap out of the Imperium than try to make it better. The Imperium as a bureaucracy entity don’t care if a local planet is a democracy, a feudal kingdom or a dictatorship based on slavery. As long as it pay its tithes and don’t threatens the stability of the Imperium, it can govern itself as it see fit. So, on the local level there are all sort of forms of government we can imagine (and probably some more). But that is separate from the Imperial bureaucracy. So, how hellish the normal life is in the Imperium is hard to say since mostly it's up to the authors The beauty of an more open local setting is that we can have everything from democratic agri-worlds based on the American frontier to hive cities hellholes ruled by an iron hand. But since it’s a grimdark dystopian setting I do suspect there probably are less of the fun ones Take the different worlds in the Eisenhorn series for example. Most of them were not horrific hell-holes but rather "normal societies". Shure often the ruling elite is often a bit extravagant with certain vices and there are maybe more poverty than in your modern time, but it's not so different from what we know today. In contrast to that we have hive worlds that really are horrific hell-holes by our standards like Necromunda. So even if the overall setting in the Imperium is a religiously bureaucracy nightmare where the Administratium extends to every aspect of life, there is a bigger narrative freedom on the more local level. In my meaning, that's one of the things that gives the 40k setting its strength. That the setting in M42 is a bit bleeker (mostly for one half) is no understatement I do like it though, since it gives us even more narrative options than we had before. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5053181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Come on, humanity lasted another 10,000 years and is still the biggest power in the galaxy. Just because their existence hasn't been close to ideal doesn't make them doomed. I'm gonna go with being a combo of the Spanish inquisition and nazis is far less than less than an ideal human existence. I'm pretty sure even the United Federation of Planets would choose to just bomb the crap out of the Imperium than try to make it better. I'm not going to disagree that life in the Imperium is horrible, it obviously is. Where I do disagree is the idea that humanity is completely doomed, and should therefore have no hope. The Imperium has existed for 10,000 years, and some people within that timespan have lived meaningful lives. Heck, if I was born into a noble family on Necromunda I'd be pretty happy. And the Imperium may be in trouble, but with Guilliman returned it's not really on the edge of complete annihilation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5053914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Chances are, even if the Imperium falls, humanity will survive in isolated pockets. We survived the Age of Strife( some civilizations doing relatively well and having better moral values than the Imperium before the Great Crusade reached them) and 'newly discovered' human colonies still pop up every now and then. As long as it's not the Necrons or Tyranids that come out on top humanity should survive in some form or other for considerable time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5053927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogWelder Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 Another thing (which may actually deserve its own topic). Is life in the Imperium really that bad? Don't get me wrong, I've read novel after novel on how bad life in the Imperium can possibly be but on average its not too bad by most sci-fi standards. In the Gaunts Ghosts novels, the Guardsmen/Guardswomen routinely describe their lives before they joined up and it seems pretty lower-middle class than anything. Sure its nothing flashy but they did their jobs, got paid, had food/shelter and were able to live a stable family life. Not to mention you have places like the 500 Worlds of Ultramar which are pretty prosperous and have a more futuristic aesthetic, contrasting with the Gothic theme of the Imperium (as seen in the novels and cover art). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 I'm not so sure it's 'bad' in the sense of 'not prosperous', but 'bad' in the sense of 'undesirable'. From the material that has been available to me, yes the average citizen has food shelter and a paycheck from a job... But they have no choice in any of it. I guess it could be described as 'soulless'. But that could easily also differ from Imperial locale to Imperial locale and my available material is very narrow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 That's usually due to lack of Imperial interference though, rather than being a feature of Imperial life in itself. Edit: Responding to Dogwelder's post Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 ... Is life in the Imperium really that bad? ...I've held forth for a long time that by the implications of the logistics for the wars of the Imperium it, for the most part, can't actually be all that bad. Even if the Imperium's losing, it's losing very slowly. Which means, that the manpower levies must be at manageable, and relatively stable, levels. Further more, even if the average world loses a 'generation' every fifty years, for their economies to not collapse, they obviously don't lose everything. If they did, the Imperium wouldn't be losing slowly, it'd be in a catastrophic collapse and wouldn't have made it 10,000 years. Ergo, by some measures, it just can't be that bad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Well there are planets where life is good and planets where life is bad. The general tone tends to be more towards bad tho. Surviving is the main focus, being well off more of an afterthought (if possible at all on your planet). Surviving is rather easy, especially with the level of technology in the 40k universe. That doesn't mean it's a good life tho. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyriks Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 We've been told explicitly in every rulebook since 4th Ed at least that life in the Imperium is life under the worst and most oppressive regime imaginable. We have to assume we are seeing the exceptions when novels show us decent life. I think the problem is that if we were shown a regime worse than any real world one we wouldn't be interested in the setting. I wouldn't read material where a more oppressive version of Hitler is the protagonist. Furthermore, there are hundreds of thousands of worlds in the Imperium, so every planet we've ever seen in fiction would be a tiny fraction of the whole; nowhere near enough of a sample size to make an accurate judgment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 We've been told explicitly in every rulebook since 4th Ed at least that life in the Imperium is life under the worst and most oppressive regime imaginable. We have to assume we are seeing the exceptions when novels show us decent life. Thing is though, when you have so many 'exceptions' it becomes increasingly hard to take the initial absolute statement seriously. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054323 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Life in the Imperium seems very dependent on who you are born as. Most people I assume are born in Hive planets, and if your born anywhere beneath the spire, your life is probably not great. If your born in the Underhive or the bottom, outskirts or badlands, it's HORRIBLE. But you can live in the hive city as say an Enforcer or bureaucrat and if you have a loving family your life is probably not so bad. Living as a peasant on a Feadal world probably sucks. Living on a Death World would stink too. Living on an Agro-world is probably pretty great, average population is a million over an entire planet so you probably have a pretty good life. And of course if you are born with wealth or power on any of these worlds, your life is darn FANTASTIC. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/2/2d/NecroHive.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nephilim Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 What’s funny though is I don’t know if he actually believes it anymore. I don't think he does believe it. He woke up and saw the sheer hopelessness of it all. He's not stupid. As much as I dislike Roboute as a character, stupid isn't a trait I'd assign to him. Heretical as I am I'm more willing to believe the rationality of an Eldar witch than the rationality of some SoB. ^^ I laughed pretty hard at that. Anyone fanatic isn't rational. As to hope... there is no hope. It's grimdark. Part of the reason why I fell in love with the setting is the existential lack of hope. Yeah, one good thing may be happening over here, but over there? NO! Don't look over there! Well, it's best you just not look over there. Hope? There is no hope. The Astronomican is failing. Warp storms gather in both frequency and magnitudes, the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Age of Strife. Xenos filth are gathering in strength and are expanding their influence, decimating entire sectors. Daemon Primarchs wake and walk in realspace. Hope? Heh. I spit on your hope. You know who had hope? Real hope? The failing corpse sitting on the golden throne had hope. Look at where that got him. "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 The setting itself is stronger than its been in a while, from the metanarrative perspective. Its still exceptionally weak when the studio provides any kind of direct narrative, like the plague wars. Its at its weakest when the studio attempts any kind of dialogue, like Gathering Storm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexington Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 We've been told explicitly in every rulebook since 4th Ed at least that life in the Imperium is life under the worst and most oppressive regime imaginable. We have to assume we are seeing the exceptions when novels show us decent life. It’s much older than 4th Ed - pretty sure that opening crawl’s a relic of Rogue Trader. Thing is, though, that particular line is really obvious hyperbole. I can imagine dozens and dozens of worse places than the Imperium in, like, a minute. There’s an endless tide of more oppressive regimes in the realm of popular fiction. Even back when 40K was new, the setting didn’t stand out as much more brutal or horrific than anything else at the time - it was just another variation on the 2000 AD style of punk sci-fi that was popular in its era. There’s a lot of variety to life in the Imperium. Lots of it is bad! Not all, or even most of it, tho. It’s just life. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 The Emperor is not dying. The fact that that he spoke to Guilliman proves that he is alive and well. The golden throne is failing. After that it's anybody's guess. He might die, he might reincarnate. But since he still has his wits about him, I'm going for he'll be back. Terra might be in the :cusss, but no fear because Cawl is there with some Blackstone to dampen the warp effect or whatevs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Afaik GW never really told us whether Guilliman talked to the Emperor or not. It all happened behind closed doors even for the reader. But yeah, not that it's important in-universe. If they'd believe the Emperor could live on/reincarnate without the golden throne, they wouldn't put so much efford into keeping the throne working. ^^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054710 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Dark Imperium. Guilliman thinking back about the encounter. "Talked" more like he was in Guilliman head. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urriak Urruk Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Afaik GW never really told us whether Guilliman talked to the Emperor or not. It all happened behind closed doors even for the reader. But yeah, not that it's important in-universe. If they'd believe the Emperor could live on/reincarnate without the golden throne, they wouldn't put so much efford into keeping the throne working. ^^ Dark Imperium does point to a conversation... though it seemed less like an actual talk and more like the Emperor just bellowed commands into Guilliman's head, and really doesn't have a personality left. The Emperor is not dying. The fact that that he spoke to Guilliman proves that he is alive and well. The golden throne is failing. After that it's anybody's guess. He might die, he might reincarnate. But since he still has his wits about him, I'm going for he'll be back. Terra might be in the :cusss, but no fear because Cawl is there with some Blackstone to dampen the warp effect or whatevs. I'm not sure the Emperor still has his wits. Dark Imperium kind of made it look like the Emperor really has no personality left, and is truly a god now (though Guilliman denies that). I'm imagining him almost like an omnipotent AI now, focused on the grand unfolding of the galaxy but not any minutiae. That also explains how a Dark Eldar got so close to killing the Emperor personally in that other book (Carrion Throne?) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 The Emperor returning wouldn’t make any kind of positive narrative impact on the setting. The Primarchs returning already causes massive narrative weakness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346040-the-return-of-hope-in-the-42nd-millennium/page/2/#findComment-5054864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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