Vanguard

[Delta.Skies]

Would you take a single vanguardwith 2 bolt pistols in a squad of heavy weapons (2 frags 3 stalkers w/ stormshields) for the fall back nd shoot.

 

I have listed 1 squad of boltguns, 2 shields 2 power swords (might throw one in here)

 

1 squad blackshield w lightning claws, 3 power swords and shields, and sergeant with xenophase blade and shield.

 

Your thoughts

[techsoldaten]

Dealing with this question right now.

 

I would, and I would take a Storm Shield on him to boot.

 

There will be a lot of situations where your heavy weapons team will need to fall back. 24 inches is not a lot of distance to close, being able to do something as you retreat will be important.

[Mobius0288]

Ya I would take a VV like that, or with a bolt pistol and power sword/chainsword. I would put the storm shield on your vets (since they are slightly cheaper) and I would want to actually use their storm shields up before having to remove my VV from wounds. Then I would lose my frag cannons until the squad is wiped. Moving back 1" after being charged and unloading frag cannons is huge for us :)

 

I wouldn't pair them up with stalker bolters though, they do better supporting rather than direct engagements. Pair stalkers with a Primaris Capt (w/ stalker bolter) for rerolls and some pretty devastating melee in case you get deep striked. He pretty much guarantees a dead (basic) infantry model every time he shoots.

 

My thought with melee, at least for Deathwatch, is to never run pure melee in kill teams (double chainswords, SS & power weapon). Our dudes are best at shooting, and we are the only space marines that can take bolters and a melee weapon, I always maximize both for efficiency (16 chainsword attacks for regular unit, 17 with a blackshield). My rules for myself are:

- Power weapons for Blackshield and Sgts

- Power weapons are acceptable for the whole kill team, but don't sacrifice the ranged weapon (i.e. melee + storm shield... run storm shields with bolter guys, or take ONE on a pure melee guy that's throwing grenades....blackshield)

- One two-handed melee weapon per squad (2 MAX - that way I can chuck a grenade and not sacrifice another model's shooting)

- Vanguard Vets are your best melee focused unit, purely for the fact that I can move 14" OVER other models and charge important units (heavy weapons, characters, artillery, etc.)... best used when disembarking from a Blackstar or deep striking out of line of sight

[Delta.Skies]

Ya I would take a VV like that, or with a bolt pistol and power sword/chainsword. I would put the storm shield on your vets (since they are slightly cheaper) and I would want to actually use their storm shields up before having to remove my VV from wounds. Then I would lose my frag cannons until the squad is wiped. Moving back 1" after being charged and unloading frag cannons is huge for us

 

I wouldn't pair them up with stalker bolters though, they do better supporting rather than direct engagements. Pair stalkers with a Primaris Capt (w/ stalker bolter) for rerolls and some pretty devastating melee in case you get deep striked. He pretty much guarantees a dead (basic) infantry model every time he shoots.

 

My thought with melee, at least for Deathwatch, is to never run pure melee in kill teams (double chainswords, SS & power weapon). Our dudes are best at shooting, and we are the only space marines that can take bolters and a melee weapon, I always maximize both for efficiency (16 chainsword attacks for regular unit, 17 with a blackshield). My rules for myself are:

- Power weapons for Blackshield and Sgts

- Power weapons are acceptable for the whole kill team, but don't sacrifice the ranged weapon (i.e. melee + storm shield... run storm shields with bolter guys, or take ONE on a pure melee guy that's throwing grenades....blackshield)

- One two-handed melee weapon per squad (2 MAX - that way I can chuck a grenade and not sacrifice another model's shooting)

- Vanguard Vets are your best melee focused unit, purely for the fact that I can move 14" OVER other models and charge important units (heavy weapons, characters, artillery, etc.)... best used when disembarking from a Blackstar or deep striking out of line of sight

 

You wouldnt pair a VV with a stalker bolter vet and fraggies? or stalker bolt vets with frag cannons?

 

And ill rework the melee vets cause your right, im losing a unit of bolter shooting to fight. which would be important if they are in the thick of it.

 

And i dont think i can work a unit of vanguard vets into the mix. Im working with 2 battalions and one vangaurd detachment at 2,000 points with AM allies... it took like 6 army list to get it just right and even then i had to lose a Leman Tank to throw in a corvus and a TLC Razorback, to get my DW down the field.

 

Even working it in the list (battle scribe) they said i had to have atleast 3 vets, before adding heavy weapons or VV. so ill see what i can do.

 

What about the squad of Stalker Bolters and Fraggies. Im not sure if thats a decent (heavy weapons unit to control the middle) - I would also have A Vindicare assassin in the mix.

[Mobius0288]

So as things are now, the stalker bolters are longer range bolt guns. They are awesome, but don't do as well when they have to move around. You could pair frag cannons with them... it certainly deters people from charging, but they work best assault and pushing front lines. Especially chews through basic and more elite infantry. Don't take them for dedicated anti-vehicle. If you need anti-vehicle, go with a missile launcher - 5 pts cheaper, way bigger range, better focused damage. If you have a vindicare, I wouldn't worry as much about stalker bolters... just go regular bolters.
 
Also probably want to keep these heavy weapon units kind of small, but have a couple spread out so the enemy is forced to split fire. You may have already considered that but just throwing it out there anyway.
 
I would not pair the VV with stalker bolters because my stalker bolter unit isn't super important to me. I would absolutely put one in with 2 Frag cannons.
 
My stalker unit:

Hidden Content

2 stalker bolters/chainswords (Sgt)

1 stalker bolter/storm shield

2 missile launchers

1 heavy bolter (optional)

 

- Fairly cheap kill team

- 36" bolter range, 48" missile range

- Usually in cover for 2+ saves, but a storm shield is included in case something high AP hits

- Missile launchers to take pot shots at vehicles while my other units (hellblasters, blackstar, ven dread) do the lifting

- Can get some D6 hits on infantry in the open if no vehicles in range

 

Battlescribe is weird sometimes, so I usually just make everything unbound and reference the rule book for detachment limitations. As long as you have 5 regular veterans total, you can have a max of 4 heavy weapons. Then add a VV as needed. I would also say good call losing the Leman Russ. It's a durable tank but the razorback and blackstar will serve you better :)

 

Unfortunately there is no one answer for board control, and there isn't perfect weapon combination to get you there. You need bodies for middle board control, but some weapons can support or push back your opponents control.

 

Control tactics: Primaris (multi-wound, cheap-ish infantry... at least compared to veterans) or your AM guardsmen squads. The more, the better. DW also has a unique tactic with the Angelic Beacon. I can potentially deep strike enough units and teleport a sizable unit to a flank or behind enemy lines to divert attention (or cause panic).

 

Support weapons/options: stalker bolters, missile launchers, heavy bolters, infernus heavy bolters (situational), razorbacks, dreadnaughts

[Delta.Skies]

So as things are now, the stalker bolters are longer range bolt guns. They are awesome, but don't do as well when they have to move around. You could pair frag cannons with them... it certainly deters people from charging, but they work best assault and pushing front lines. Especially chews through basic and more elite infantry. Don't take them for dedicated anti-vehicle. If you need anti-vehicle, go with a missile launcher - 5 pts cheaper, way bigger range, better focused damage. If you have a vindicare, I wouldn't worry as much about stalker bolters... just go regular bolters.

 

Also probably want to keep these heavy weapon units kind of small, but have a couple spread out so the enemy is forced to split fire. You may have already considered that but just throwing it out there anyway.

 

I would not pair the VV with stalker bolters because my stalker bolter unit isn't super important to me. I would absolutely put one in with 2 Frag cannons.

 

My stalker unit:

Hidden Content

2 stalker bolters/chainswords (Sgt)

1 stalker bolter/storm shield

2 missile launchers

1 heavy bolter (optional)

 

- Fairly cheap kill team

- 36" bolter range, 48" missile range

- Usually in cover for 2+ saves, but a storm shield is included in case something high AP hits

- Missile launchers to take pot shots at vehicles while my other units (hellblasters, blackstar, ven dread) do the lifting

- Can get some D6 hits on infantry in the open if no vehicles in range

 

Battlescribe is weird sometimes, so I usually just make everything unbound and reference the rule book for detachment limitations. As long as you have 5 regular veterans total, you can have a max of 4 heavy weapons. Then add a VV as needed. I would also say good call losing the Leman Russ. It's a durable tank but the razorback and blackstar will serve you better

 

Unfortunately there is no one answer for board control, and there isn't perfect weapon combination to get you there. You need bodies for middle board control, but some weapons can support or push back your opponents control.

 

Control tactics: Primaris (multi-wound, cheap-ish infantry... at least compared to veterans) or your AM guardsmen squads. The more, the better. DW also has a unique tactic with the Angelic Beacon. I can potentially deep strike enough units and teleport a sizable unit to a flank or behind enemy lines to divert attention (or cause panic).

 

Support weapons/options: stalker bolters, missile launchers, heavy bolters, infernus heavy bolters (situational), razorbacks, dreadnaughts

Alright so this is the Deathwatch Layout as of now. Still tweaking these as im discovering ( not trying to be perfect, but at least optimized to get a field of where im going since im kitbashin and going off the top of my head with scenarios and research )

 

Deathwatch Kill Team [9 PL, 126pts]

. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield

. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield

. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Power sword

. Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. Watch Sergeant: Boltgun, Xenophase Blade

 

Deathwatch Kill Team [9 PL, 133pts]

. Black Shield: Lightning Claw (Pair)

. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Power axe

. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Storm shield

. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Power axe

. Watch Sergeant: Boltgun, Combat shield, Xenophase Blade

 

Deathwatch Kill Team [11 PL, 194pts]

. Deathwatch Vanguard Veteran: Bolt Pistol And Chainsword

. Deathwatch Veteran: Stalker Pattern Boltgun, Storm shield

. Deathwatch Veteran: Stalker Pattern Boltgun, Storm shield

. Deathwatch Veteran: Boltgun, Chainsword

. Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

. Deathwatch Veteran w/ Heavy Weapon: Deathwatch Frag Cannon

[LordCommanderSamirus]

I'd put the Heavy Bolter in with the stalkers, move the Frag Cannons to the other 2 units.