Haemonculus Coven Force?

[Noctus Cornix]

I only just got the codex today and I've been fumbling through it. Dark Eldar have always had a special place in my heart, especially Haemonculus covens. So I was wondering, is it doable? Can I make a viable Haemonculus coven list? If so, how?

 

It's kind of a broad question but I really haven't played Dark Eldar since their updated codex in 5th edition and even then I was only really playing kabalites since Wracks didn't have plastic models back then. So I'm sort of all over the place, really. Can I do it? What should a list look like? What weapon loadouts should I be going for? 

 

Seems to me that I'll be wanting a lot of Haemonculi. That plus 1 toughness is gonna be a life saver against space marines and bolter spam. As for the coven, I'm not sure yet. I'm kinda torn at the moment between Prophets of Pain and the Council of Twelve. Both of the obsession rules are great and I love their stratagems. What do you guys think?

[GrinNfool]

So I think it would be doable, not sure it would be the most effective build for DE but I certainly think you could make it functional.  Weapon load out wise, I think the only unit that this is even a question on is talos, because I can't see not taking the ossefactor for wracks.  As far as the talos its between haywire and splinter cannons, if you are going pure coven, then I think you would be almost obligated to run almost all talos as haywire.  Unless you are willing to run about 4-5 scourge squads as blasters. 

 

I imagine any coven heavy list would probably want to be prophets of flesh, I can't see an army with just a 5++ invuln being able to compete.  Harlequins tried that in 7th, it wasn't great, in 8th they gave them a 4++ across the board, so that should tell you something.  The -1 ap is kinda cool, and would even apply to venoms and raiders in that coven detachment, but I think that would be better off as a small patrol of wracks in a kabal or cult heavy list. 

 

So just quickly throwing something together, would be something like this.

2x haems w/ electro

3 10x wrack squads with an electro and 2 osse's each

1 3x Talos w/ 6 haywire

1 3x talos with 4 haywire 2 splinter cannons

1 cronos w/ vortex and probe

3 5x scourges w/ 4 blasters

1 3x grotesque

1 4x grotesque

3 raiders w/ DC

 

Thats coming in a little under 2k, and I'm 100% sure its no where near being optimized.  But it would be a reasonable estimate of what a pure coven army might look like.  12 blasters 10 haywire SHOULD be enough to handle most vehicles, but you've also got the talos and grotesques that can punch holes in a vehicle if needed.  As far as effectiveness, would probably depend on your meta.  That list is certainly  scary in melee but its gotta get there first of course.  Would require testing to know for sure, but I only have a small amount of coven so I can't test it, (5x wracks 1 haem 2 talos and a cronos)

 

I will say the safer way to make a Coven heavy list would be being willing to bring a spearhead and/or airwing of kabal, to get a good firebase to support your monstrosities.

[Calyptra]

I think it's absolutely viable.

 

Bring Scourges.

 

Honestly I'm having a hard time making up my mind between the 3 Covens. Prophets are going to be the most forgiving, easy button option. Right now I'm leaning towards a Coven of Twelve army because I like that they hit a bit harder, and the shooting into melee strategem is interesting. But I think there are some really interesting things you can do with the Dark Creed if you brought Kabal stuff as well. 3 Dark Creed units + a phantasm grenade launcher + you killed their warlord = -5 Ld.

[shaun03]

Every one is jumping on the Prophets coven, and it's the stand out coven. I was personally drawn to dark creed, not ever army is depending on LD but being able to cripple that at will is nice boost. I'm sure someone is math hammering the benefit of 1+ save verse having extra models flee via failed LD.  So the famous catch all, its going to come down to your meta and play style. The dark creed could function and holds its own as pure coven army to. 

 

One can really hinder the LD of opposition, when in conjunction of coordination fire and or assaults it can be highly effective. 

 

Without speculation on whats going to happen with the reaper and Tantalus, dark creed has some powerful combos on its on. And when the FAQ and chapter approve drop and they don't touch the tantalus or reaper, coven list in general will get benefit greatly from those units. 

[GrinNfool]

I think it's absolutely viable.

 

Bring Scourges.

 

Honestly I'm having a hard time making up my mind between the 3 Covens. Prophets are going to be the most forgiving, easy button option. Right now I'm leaning towards a Coven of Twelve army because I like that they hit a bit harder, and the shooting into melee strategem is interesting. But I think there are some really interesting things you can do with the Dark Creed if you brought Kabal stuff as well. 3 Dark Creed units + a phantasm grenade launcher + you killed their warlord = -5 Ld.

So I am just going to point out, coven units for the most part weren't touched that much.  Talos dropped 13 points grotesques went up 1 point and wracks went down 1 point and their osse went down 6 points.  Cronos dropped a good amount but, its not like you were going to spam those anyways.  No one was really that interested in coven before the codex, and its not like the units themselves were buffed much if at all.  The only reason people are thinking about them now is the fact they won't die to a stiff breeze thanks to prophets.  Twelve has uses as a small patrol using some wracks to get that ap -1 w/ wounding on 4s, it makes them a reasonable melee unit since you can hide them in venoms/raiders to help w/ the survival, but not powerful enough to build a force out of.  I am sure someone can figure out a way to use creed to some effect, but it won't be as a coven heavy list, it will be in Eldar soup w/ hemlocks, and phantasms, and more.

 

Just to throw some random numbers out there, a talos on average takes 7 lascannon/lance equivalent shots at BS 3+ to kill.  A prophets talos takes 9.  A wrack takes 5 boltgun shots to kill (assuming not next to haem) a prophets wrack takes 7.  This means a 10 man prophets wrack squad will require 20 more boltgun shots to kill off.  A 3 talos squad will require 6 more lance equivalents at bs3 to kill.  This is quite substantial honestly.  The twelve from 10 wracks would on average kill 1.2 more marines than prophets.  Assuming 30 wracks you would kill an extra 3.6 marines a turn.  This isn't significant.

 

This isn't meant to be a rant against twelve or creed (I actually expect to see creed get used alot, because of eldar soup).  Just trying to give a bit of a wake up call to those thinking that in a coven heavy list prophets aren't the only real choice.  Coven wasn't getting used much in the index because they lacked survive-ability, not because they didn't have -1ap or ld reductions, or because their wracks cost 1 more point or their talos 13 more points.  I am sure some people will not like this post, but I have played a 5++ invuln army, you don't want it.  Unless you are playing on a super LOS blocking terrain heavy table there is nothing you can do to work around it either when the army is melee.

[shaun03]

You highlighted some good points, and things that need to be taken in to consideration when building an army.

 

And Creed mostly will be the one seen most in mix forces, and actually work well. Because there mores ways lower the LD using traditional eldar than just DE a lone. I would hate think they knew this when they designed creed trait and use a sneaky sales tactic to entice wacc players to buy the codex and coven units. 

[Withershadow]

I agree that the non-Prophet Covens are only really for small detachments.

[Noctus Cornix]

Why exactly are Ossefactors a better choice than Liquifier guns?  Liquifiers seem like a solid choice to me.

[Withershadow]

Long range, good profile, mortal wound generation.

[GrinNfool]

Why exactly are Ossefactors a better choice than Liquifier guns?  Liquifiers seem like a solid choice to me.

Osses get to wound on 2s with ap-3 and killing a model gives a mortal wound on a 4+, not bad for 7 points.  Liquefiers run you 11, for a s3 flamer, though yes it does have some ap, its random and random shots and short range and 11 points doesn't do the weapon any favors.  If it was str 4 the weapon would be good, the str 3 is just so poor. 

[Withershadow]

Heavy flamers are 17.

[Vel'Cona]

 

If it was str 4 the weapon would be good, the str 3 is just so poor.

 

Do you remember when Liquifiers were S4?  Man, those were the days.  OFC, at that point there weren't any actual models for Wracks so I had to convert a bunch of them out of WHFB Ghouls, but still, good times :D

[Noctus Cornix]

A small problem I see with Ossefactors comes down to transportation. If you put a Haemonculus with some Wracks in a Raider, your transport capacity is only 10 so you'll have to cut a Wrack from the squad and the rules for Wracks is that you only get an Ossefactor or Liquifier gun for every 5, meaning you're gonna get 1 per squad that has an attached Haemonculus. I mean, I suppose you could just go without them and maybe have the Haemonculus in a different transport, but seems like a little bit of a waste to me with how cheap as an HQ they are, plus that +1 Toughness bonus is pretty insane.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah that's a consistent problem for Dark Eldar all the time, all our basic infantry units gain more special weapons from being 10 strong. For covens in particular though, I don't think you really need all your wracks in a raider. Put maybe half in raiders, have the other half footslog since they are actually just as tough as our vehicles with heamonculus nearby, and save your transport space for grots as it's more important to get them up the field and in combat fast. Foot wracks can just be your screen to keep your taloi from getting tied up or shot down by deep strikers. 

 

Also if you're not being super strict on the whole pure coven theme, I'd grab an air wing of razorwing jetfighters, or maybe throw in a voidranven bomber as well. That would really give the fire support you need, plus our fliers are sweet models. 

[Noctus Cornix]

So, say for a 10 man Wrack Squad, what a solid loadout choice would look like would be something along the lines of;

10 Wracks

2 Ossefactors

Acothyst with a Hexrifle and maybe an Electrocussive whip if I've got the points to spare, or just a venom blade if I want to keep it cheap (I hate to say it but the Electrocussive whip just seems like the best choice of the 'Weapons of Torture' list. )

 

That should come to roughly about 125 points with the whip, 121 if it's the venom blade. That's a pretty cheap price for a solid squad. 

[GrinNfool]

So, say for a 10 man Wrack Squad, what a solid loadout choice would look like would be something along the lines of;

 

10 Wracks

2 Ossefactors

Acothyst with a Hexrifle and maybe an Electrocussive whip if I've got the points to spare, or just a venom blade if I want to keep it cheap (I hate to say it but the Electrocussive whip just seems like the best choice of the 'Weapons of Torture' list. )

 

That should come to roughly about 125 points with the whip, 121 if it's the venom blade. That's a pretty cheap price for a solid squad. 

Eh I wouldn't buy any gun for the acothyst, they are all just too expensive for what they do.  If you just HAVE to buy a gun get the stinger pistol, though better to just pass on a gun for the acothyst.  The hexrifle is expensive, and is heavy.  On a squad that is almost certainly moving every turn, if not advancing, that is a bad combination.  With electro only being 2 points more than agon, I think electro is almost auto take, unless you are really hurting for points.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yup definetly agree don't waste pts on  hexrifle or stinger pistol, leave the shooting to ossefactors. 

 

I went for a venom blade on my acothyst since I wanted to keep my wracks cheap, but the whip isn't bad either. Problem with the weapons of torture list is it's a nice diverse list where a lot of options sucks. Mindphase and flesh gauntlet are bad, and scissorhands is a bit expensive for a 1w model. 

[Noctus Cornix]

Expensive? The Hexrifle is only 5 points. 

[GrinNfool]

Expensive? The Hexrifle is only 5 points. 

Which is about 4 points too much lol.  I could see 5 maybe, if it was assault or rapid fire.  Expensive is relative when it comes to DE lol, while a blaster is pricey, not many people would say its too expensive.  I would say a hex rifle, stinger pistol, and liquefier are though.

[Withershadow]

Stinger pistols are ridiculous. That’s why all my Haemonculi will rock the index loadout with a splinter pistol (that I can then upgrade to Parasite’s Kiss since the Coven relics are merely meh).

 

Hex rifle is pretty bad, and probably be like 2 points, but whatever. At least it gives the wracks something to do, although there is something to be said about just running them naked.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Stinger pistol is 5pts, half that of a blast pistol but yes I agree they are too expensive. Should have gone down to around 2pts like the venom blade. 

 

Hexrifle might be ok at 5pts/m if there was an actual unit to put them on that could make up a stationary sniper unit backfield, but as is just as an option one the acothyst and the haemonculus it's really not all that useful. 

 

Disagree that the coven relics are meh though. The prophets of flesh one is very nifty against a heavy assault list, the pistol for dark creed can output a fair amount of damage, and the coven of twelve one isn't a half bad melee weapon even though haemoncoli aren't our main combat characters.  

[Vel'Cona]

Expensive? The Hexrifle is only 5 points. 

 

Trust me Noctus, the comparisons on "expensive" have narrowed drastically in 8th edition.  While I still argue that 5 points isn't a big deal, there are ranting debates in some of the subforums about Power Swords vs Power Axes simply because of the 1 point difference

[Calyptra]

 

So I am just going to point out, coven units for the most part weren't touched that much.  Talos dropped 13 points grotesques went up 1 point and wracks went down 1 point and their osse went down 6 points.  Cronos dropped a good amount but, its not like you were going to spam those anyways. No one was really that interested in coven before the codex, and its not like the units themselves were buffed much if at all.  The only reason people are thinking about them now is the fact they won't die to a stiff breeze thanks to prophets.

 

In the last edition, Covens had their own book and were considered the most powerful/competitive Dark Eldar army, so I don't think it's accurate to say that nobody cared about Covens until now.

 

I think the addition of obsessions, strategems, warlord traits, and artefacts counts as a significant buff beyond a point reduction.

 

The Talos gained an attack. The macro-scalpel gained +1 strength and went from -1 to -2 AP. Chain-flails now double the Talos's attacks, which means 10 strength 6 attacks that reroll failed wound rolls. The ichor injector gained -1 AP, and still isn't a great weapon for a Talos in this edition, but now Haemonculi are allowed to take it, and it's arguably a good choice for them. Also, the stinger pod went down 11 points, and a pair of haywire blasters went down 8 points.

 

Grotesques may have gone up a point, but their cleavers gained -1 AP and went down 3 points, and flesh gauntlets went down 3 points, so Grotesques received a net 5 point reduction and a buff (unless you're giving them liquifiers for some reason).

 

The ossefactor received a 6 point reduction. It is a 7 point gun that will kill a Space Marine dead almost every time you shoot one. Wracks went down a point and so did Haemonculus tools, so effectively Wracks went down 2 points.

 

The Haemonculus went down 5 points. The stinger pistol went down 2 points. Electrocorrosive whips went down 2 points. Venom blades went down 3 points. Splinter cannons went down 5 points. Disintigrators went down 15 points. Venoms went down 10 points, and Raiders went down 30 points.

 

Also, obsessions, strategems, artefacts, and warlord traits.

 

 

Just to throw some random numbers out there, a talos on average takes 7 lascannon/lance equivalent shots at BS 3+ to kill.  A prophets talos takes 9.  A wrack takes 5 boltgun shots to kill (assuming not next to haem) a prophets wrack takes 7.  This means a 10 man prophets wrack squad will require 20 more boltgun shots to kill off.  A 3 talos squad will require 6 more lance equivalents at bs3 to kill.  This is quite substantial honestly.  The twelve from 10 wracks would on average kill 1.2 more marines than prophets.  Assuming 30 wracks you would kill an extra 3.6 marines a turn.  This isn't significant.

 

7 lascannons alone cost significantly more points than you spent on the Talos. Assuming that the models firing those lascannons weren't free, that is well over twice as many points as were spent on the Talos.

 

Unless it's a small squad that you dropped off on an objective somewhere, if your Wracks are not next to a Haemonculus or embarked on a vehicle, you're already in trouble. That said, 5 boltgun shots means at least 3 Marines, which is over four times as many points as you spent on that Wrack.

 

You're also not taking into account Power From Pain; on turn 3, or turn 2 if you use an Animus Vitae or a 1 CP strategem, those Wracks will hit on 2s. If I'm mathing this correctly, 10 Wracks from the Prophets of Flesh (assuming there isn't a Cronos nearby, and that you didn't give the Acothyst an electrocorrosive whip or anything) will kill 2.3 Marines, which goes up to 2.9 when they gain Flensing. The Coven of Twelve will kill 3.4 Marines, and Flensing Wracks will kill 4.3. That seems significant.

 

I'm not sure why we're not talking about Grotesques. 5 Grotesques from the Prophets will kill 7.4 Marines, and kill 9.2 with Flensing. The Coven of Twelve will kill 9.2 Marines, and Flensing Grotesques will kill 11.5.

 

 

This isn't meant to be a rant against twelve or creed (I actually expect to see creed get used alot, because of eldar soup).  Just trying to give a bit of a wake up call to those thinking that in a coven heavy list prophets aren't the only real choice.  Coven wasn't getting used much in the index because they lacked survive-ability, not because they didn't have -1ap or ld reductions, or because their wracks cost 1 more point or their talos 13 more points.  I am sure some people will not like this post, but I have played a 5++ invuln army, you don't want it.  Unless you are playing on a super LOS blocking terrain heavy table there is nothing you can do to work around it either when the army is melee.

 

When I started playing Dark Eldar we didn't have invulnerable saves or Feel No/Insensible To Pain. Having them now is just ice cream. If you're not able to find ways to keep your opponent from shooting you, or aren't willing to lose games while you learn, then Dark Eldar are not the army for you. That includes learning not to play on Planet Bowling Ball. Saying that your troops died because they weren't survivable enough is abdicating responsibility for the choices you made as a player.

 

I don't mean that to be dismissive or pejorative. The Dark Eldar are not, and never have been, the army for most people. A lot of that comes down to personal taste and the sort of game experience different people want. One of the reasons why I've loved Dark Eldar since they were first released is because your choices matter a lot more. I get more out of a game when I win or lose because of me, not because of my army.

[Vel'Cona]

Might be more accurate to say nobody cared about Dark Eldar until now, all around.  You had a few niche players and Raiders had a brief run in the post Ynnari mashup that was Eldar lists close of 7th, but this new 'dex has revived interest in a faction that, frankly, is something of an odd duck in the 40k lineup.  Haemonculus Covens in particular are an odd subset of DE designed to be more durable/last longer in melee, but have issues with mobility (to some extent) compared to their Kabal/Cult equivalents and are somewhat insular in terms of buffs.  The Coven rules have added a ton of versatility and interesting builds to these units regardless of points costs et al, but at the end of the day their roles and application haven't changed much (ie. durability).

[Calyptra]

My biggest concern about Coven armies in 8th is the pain engines.

 

Historically, the Talos (and when it was added later, the Cronos) had a significant drawback, which is that it was slow. While the rest of your army was zipping around all over the place, your pain engines were left slowly drifting across the table with giant targets on them. That made it difficult not just to keep them alive, but also to effectively use them in concert with the rest of the army.

 

In 7th ed, a Coven army could precision deep strike them (well, one of each) with a Dark Artisan formation and a webway portal. I had a lot of fun with that. I also relied on plonking a Talos with twin heat lances right behind my opponent's scariest vehicle as my primary antitank strategy. Now that a Covenite detachment can bring Scourges, the army is in a significantly better at dealing with enemy armor.

 

But now we're back to majestically drifting pain engines, albeit now they go 8" instead of 6". They're awfully slow, and it's a problem.

 

My thinking right now is to accompany them with a Haemonculus and some disposable Wracks to benefit from relevant auras, even though it goes against all my instincts and experience to have my troops walk. If I can cause enough bedlam with my Mandrakes, Scourges, and Venoms, maybe they'll actually get to where I need them to be.

 

Alternatively, a Talos is a big scary thing that will draw fire, and that can be valuable. In 7th ed, when I dropped my two pain engines on the table, I would often point out to my opponent that they could safely ignore and stay away from them, and nobody ever did. If your opponent is focused on your Talos, they aren't shooting down your Raiders.

 

I dunno. I think I need to play some more games.