Perspectives for a Prompt Improvement of Space Marines

[Brother Christopher]

From my experience and many an opinion online, I get the impression that the Space Marines' codex is one of the weakest books in the line-up. The problems are numerous. To name a few, we have relatively low durability due to game mechanics (chiefly AP modification and weight of dice) for which we still pay a premium price; low damage output of not only our troops, but also other units; overpriced units for what they do (both mildly overpriced and grossly, like Centurions); mediocre vehicles; lack of Chapter Tactics for vehicles, good stratagems and other special rules (more easily available for other armies).

 

There are other threads here which discuss the issues in detail and suggest solutions. However, I'm interested in your opinion on whether it is feasible that Codex: Space Marines will get significantly better through GW's "patches" - FAQ/ERRATA (BTW: any news on this?) or Chapter Approved, or are the flaws that pest the Emperor's Finest too deep and require a re-write of the entire book.

 

The first Chapter Approved was a bit underwhelming (or an outright flop, in my opinion) and it doesn't bode well for future changes. Then again, we don't know much regarding future (and overdue) updates. So a by-product here is a question, whether do you think that the "new GW" is able to recognise the issue with vanilla Space Marines and do something about it. After all, they recognised that Space Marines did well with Stormravens and AC Razorbacks and gutted them thoroughly.

[Ishagu]

The codex has notable issues:

 

1 - Overpriced units (Centurions, Standard Marines, Landraiders, etc)

2 - Lack of effective Strategems (Nothing of note outside of a few, chapter specific examples. Everything is too unit specific)

3 - Lack of unit compatibility across the army (Primaris feel like a separate entity, can't enter a Landraider for some reason, etc)

 

To answer your question; No, I don't think CA or the FAQ can resolve all the issues. The Stratagems will need to wait for a new codex, as will the way the units interact with each-other.

The point costs CAN be fixed however.

 

Landraider and Repulsor drop by 40 each

Centurions base cost 35

Tactical Marines at 11, Primaris base cost at 16, Scouts at 9, Terminators base cost 20 points, etc

 

Also, there is a LOT of dead wood in the Codex that needs rule re-writes or to be scrapped. What's the point of the Hunter, for example?

[Halandaar]

The first Chapter Approved was a bit underwhelming (or an outright flop, in my opinion) and it doesn't bode well for future changes. Then again, we don't know much regarding future (and overdue) updates. So a by-product here is a question, whether do you think that the "new GW" is able to recognise the issue with vanilla Space Marines and do something about it. After all, they recognised that Space Marines did well with Stormravens and AC Razorbacks and gutted them thoroughly.

 

Remember that when Chapter Approved came out, Space Marines were at a significant advantage over the majority of armies in the game simply by virtue of actually having a Codex, with all the attendant gubbins (relics, warlord traits, chapter tactics, stratagems). So expecting anything significant for the from that book seems misguided, at best.

 

The next one is a different proposition; the vast majority (if not all) of the other factions will have their Codexes out by the end of the year. We don't know what form it's going to take, but I don't think it's impossible that it could introduce new stratagems or rules for the factions which haven't held up as well. Points adjustments seem likely too.

[Dark_Jober]

Well... I think Space Marines have 2 main problems, these are my opinions so please take them as my ideas and not as real facts:

1. As @Halandaar said, being one of the first codex released was an advantage, but as always in every edition the first codexes then became the oldest so... most new codexes will be better in rules or point costs or even the mechanics are better worked, more synergy. For example, I think DA and BA (and successors) could be much better than most vainilla marines (maybe Raven Guard and of course UM could be in a similar position) because they have more rules focused in their style and not so many generic and shared pool. As BT player, all other Stratagems are useless for me, but in DA or BA codex all stratagems are useful.
2. The SM range is suffering a real change, not only receiving new products, we know think that many units will be obsoleted with the Primaris evolution (in fluff and it seems it will happen in the game too) and we suspect they could be OOP in a not too far future... Tactical marines, scouts, bikers, assault marines, and even Terminator squads... they look like they will be replaced, so the first step is to replace them in the table, maybe releasing better options (Intercessors vs Tactical, Inceptor/Reivers vs Assault) or even doing them useless.

In the other hand, I know nothing about competitive enviroment... I'm new and I'm really bad player, so my opinions are only based in my few games and all stuff I'm reading on the forums and blogs.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

What's the point of the Hunter, for example?

A cheap, tough lascannon that doesn't need Captain support. I use mine pretty religiously; in my last three games, notably kills include a Hellforged Deredeo, a Ghostkeel, and a Winged DP. It plus my pair of Thunderfire Cannons led by a barebones Techmarine is a cheap but very effective Spearhead Detachment.

 

 

On topic, though, I do agree that C:SM has fsllen on the power curve. Some new, non unit specific stratagems would help, a few points tweaks here and there would not be amiss either. Aside from the strats, though, I think the biggest issue is that Marine vehicles across the board don't benefit from traits. If an Alaitoc Fire Prism is hard to see, why can't a Raven Guard Rhino be too? If an Ulthwé Wave Serpent gets FNP - which provides a real savings in points since there's no longer a need to buy spirit stones! - then why can't an Iron Hands Predator do the same?

[Ishagu]

90 points for a single Las Cannon shot sound good to you? lol

It's not

[Kinstryfe]

I don't think that a simple faq would be enough to "fix" the book. Units are way out of whack even in relation to each other, there's even more out of whack compared to later books, and enough units seem like they need to be just entirely redone rather than just have points costs tweaked. There's too much that's just off compared to later codexes that it wouldn't be worth that much effort to then put out for free. What I do see happening is, with the codex release cycle being so quick, we'll get a new Marine codex before too long, once the others have all gotten theirs. Afterall, GW is getting people used to frequent book purchases with Chapter Approved, why should codexes be any different? With marines being the main poster child for the entire game it seems even more likely, as it gives them a solid excuse to showcase new models with each new codex every other year. I'm still one of the seeming few who think that the entire classic marine line bring discontinued and phased out of the game is paranoia, but I think the likelihood of there being more Primaris kits over time is pretty much a certainty, and this lets them showcase each wave with shiny new rules.

 

Then again, GW has been really player friendly lately. Maybe they will fix things for free, but it seems unlikely.

[Aothaine]

I understand where people are coming from with all of the comments above. But with every codex there are good units and bad units. The space marine codex isn't all that bad and there are a lot of ways to build a fun and fluffy list with it. Is it going to be number 1 in WAAC competitive events? Most likely not. But it has the potential to be. If you are looking to have that soul crushing space marine list then you need to drop the fluff. Run 2-3 separate chapters in one list to get the best benefits you can. Take a detachment of Blood Angels for your melee units, take a detachment of Dark Angels for your Plasma units, etc. Hell we are imperium. You can take anything in the imperium to min/max your lists. 

 

Wanting to run something along the lines of "Only Imperial Fists" and be as competitive as a army book that has no ally options seems a bit silly imho. Are there problems with unit costs and unit viability in a hyper-competitive environment, yeah. But I find it hard to agree with the woe-is-my-codex approach when you don't use all the tools at your disposal. Soup lists are incredibly powerful and it is only fair that the xenos factions be amped up a bit to cover for their lack of options.

 

This is just my opinion. Please don't flame me. I don't mind a good debate though.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

90 points for a single Las Cannon shot sound good to you? lol

It's not

A T8 lascannon with an extra foot of range that my TFC Gunner can repair with +1 to hit FLY keyword units that automatically rerolls misses regardless of target with no need for s Captain to babysit it that can fill that third Spearhead Heavy slot without breaking the bank?

 

Yes, I like that. It works well for me, for how i build armies, and I have no complaints.

[Ishagu]

I think the stratagems are the biggest issue. There are probably 3/4 usable ones, but most of them are situational trash that isn't factored into your tactics (With the exception of the RG infiltration strats)

 

After that, it's the silly over-costed units. Centurions - the only unique unit to this codex, are utterly unusable even in friendly games.

[Halandaar]

90 points for a single Las Cannon shot sound good to you? lol

It's not

 

But it's also an 11 wound, T8 platform that can sit on backfield objectives, always re-rolls failed hit rolls (so hits ~90% of the time) without the need for character support and negates Flyers -1 to hit penalty.

 

I mean sure, it's not brilliant and I'd probably use a Razorback to fulfil the same function (with bonus transport capabilities) but lets not just say "here's 1 of its 4 features, lol bad"

[Brother Captain Ed]

Honestly, the things needed to make enough of a difference rise to the level of a new codex, not an FAQ or even a CA.

 

Stratagems need a complete overhaul.

 

Points across the board need to be realigned (hurricane Bolters going up because they're too good on Stormravens, but then making LRC's more expensive as a result, for example).

 

Iconic rules like Drop Pod Assault need a complete overhaul.

 

And the functional/points relationship between scouts, tacs, and Intercessors needs some work too.

 

As far as quick fixes go, the idea occurred to me while playing AoS that maybe most space marines need something like "Honor Your Wargear: This model rerolls saves of 1." Granted AoS is a very different game, but it should make marines more survivable (a trait they are supposed to have, but almost totally lack in 8th) and place more value on AP instead of multiple damage.

 

But maybe it's too much. Or too little. Who knows.

[Aothaine]

I think the stratagems are the biggest issue. There are probably 3/4 usable ones, but most of them are situational trash that isn't factored into your tactics (With the exception of the RG infiltration strats)

 

After that, it's the silly over-costed units. Centurions - the only unique unit to this codex, are utterly unusable even in friendly games.

 

Fair enough. I agree completely with Centurions being way to expensive and the stratagems being very situational and sometimes really silly to try and use. But I wonder if that is because there are stratagems that are really strong over the ones that are just okay? I know that some of them appear to be really useless though like the one that lets you combat squad mid game, but I can see it having uses. Rarely. But it could actually be a stratagem that wins you the game in specific scenarios.

 

I do really wish Centurions were more usable. I love the models. But Aggressors are just so much better at almost every aspect. It is a sad day. Still going to be buying like 12-20 Centurions in the hopes that they will get a points drop and I can field an army of them for fun. ^_^

[Ishagu]

 

 

I think the stratagems are the biggest issue. There are probably 3/4 usable ones, but most of them are situational trash that isn't factored into your tactics (With the exception of the RG infiltration strats)

 

After that, it's the silly over-costed units. Centurions - the only unique unit to this codex, are utterly unusable even in friendly games.

Fair enough. I agree completely with Centurions being way to expensive and the stratagems being very situational and sometimes really silly to try and use. But I wonder if that is because there are stratagems that are really strong over the ones that are just okay? I know that some of them appear to be really useless though like the one that lets you combat squad mid game, but I can see it having uses. Rarely. But it could actually be a stratagem that wins you the game in specific scenarios.

 

I do really wish Centurions were more usable. I love the models. But Aggressors are just so much better at almost every aspect. It is a sad day. Still going to be buying like 12-20 Centurions in the hopes that they will get a points drop and I can field an army of them for fun. ^_^

Risky. At the moment a Centurion with Las Cannons and Missiles costs MORE than a Dreadnought with the same weapons. Crazy, crazy, crazy!

[MeltaRange]

I think they could significantly help marines with a Chapter Approved or something like it, but I seriously doubt that it would help anything except for points costs.  I also think they could do better by simply tuning down other armies, but if the Drukhari book is any indication - that ain't happening.  Also, things like making the Tau Riptide burst cannons (and many other things) D2 really just screws Primaris so hard.

 

• Drop the cost of grossly over costed things like Centurions
• Drop the cost of all our vehicles by 20%
• Improve some of our weapons, particularly things like the Hunter's missile (maybe min 3 dmg like the Neutron Laser)
• Increase the bubble range of our HQ buffs to 9" or 12".  Stop giving our bubble effects to every other  army. (Archons re-rolling hits, REALLY GW?)
• Chapter Tactics to Vehicles.  Allow smoke launchers to be used while firing.  Power of the Machine Spirit on ALL vehicles. (the fluff supports this!)
• Make things like the Apothecary/Ancient more reliable...remove the stupid 4+ roll.
• All HQ get a 2+ armor
• Better Stratagems all around

[redmapa]

While I do think that the SM problems are quite a few I dont think that they need such an overhaul to be better, I mean look at BA and you can see that Marines have potential to be great. I do think that the issues with the codex can be easily fixed by doing two things, one is giving them better Stratagems and the other is perhaps to re-tool certain Chapter Tactics, IH for example are absolute crap and could use more than just 6+FNP. These two things are essentially the back bone of the codex and as seen with BA a good pool of Stratagems can help a crap codex be good.

 

Now I dont think C:SM will get anything until a supplement arrives and that could happen this summer or next year, who knows, but I wouldnt hold my breath for anything.

[Aothaine]

Honestly, the things needed to make enough of a difference rise to the level of a new codex, not an FAQ or even a CA.

 

Stratagems need a complete overhaul.

 

Points across the board need to be realigned (hurricane Bolters going up because they're too good on Stormravens, but then making LRC's more expensive as a result, for example).

 

Iconic rules like Drop Pod Assault need a complete overhaul.

 

And the functional/points relationship between scouts, tacs, and Intercessors needs some work too.

 

As far as quick fixes go, the idea occurred to me while playing AoS that maybe most space marines need something like "Honor Your Wargear: This model rerolls saves of 1." Granted AoS is a very different game, but it should make marines more survivable (a trait they are supposed to have, but almost totally lack in 8th) and place more value on AP instead of multiple damage.

 

But maybe it's too much. Or too little. Who knows.

 

In another thread people have brought up the same point about space marines not being tough enough with the current rules and that increasing the base marines wound charistic to two and primaris to three. Seems pretty solid to me. But I can see the reroll 1's on armour saves working as well. Makes sense with how much they take care of their equipment. But the rule would also need to apply to chaos marines who don't usually do that. I honestly think the increase in wounds would be the best approach.

[Aothaine]

While I do think that the SM problems are quite a few I dont think that they need such an overhaul to be better, I mean look at BA and you can see that Marines have potential to be great. I do think that the issues with the codex can be easily fixed by doing two things, one is giving them better Stratagems and the other is perhaps to re-tool certain Chapter Tactics, IH for example are absolute crap and could use more than just 6+FNP. These two things are essentially the back bone of the codex and as seen with BA a good pool of Stratagems can help a crap codex be good.

 

Now I dont think C:SM will get anything until a supplement arrives and that could happen this summer or next year, who knows, but I wouldnt hold my breath for anything.

 

Just want to point out that the 6+ FNP is not crap at all. It is deceptively good. I've seen people use the 6+ fnp rule and win games because of it. Iron Warriors have the same rule and they are amazingly good. ^_^ Just saying. Better Stratagems might be in order though. But I'm still convinced that SM in general are fine. Just build your competitive list as a soup and you will do far better.

[MeltaRange]

Honestly, the things needed to make enough of a difference rise to the level of a new codex, not an FAQ or even a CA.

 

Stratagems need a complete overhaul.

 

Points across the board need to be realigned (hurricane Bolters going up because they're too good on Stormravens, but then making LRC's more expensive as a result, for example).

 

Iconic rules like Drop Pod Assault need a complete overhaul.

 

And the functional/points relationship between scouts, tacs, and Intercessors needs some work too.

 

As far as quick fixes go, the idea occurred to me while playing AoS that maybe most space marines need something like "Honor Your Wargear: This model rerolls saves of 1." Granted AoS is a very different game, but it should make marines more survivable (a trait they are supposed to have, but almost totally lack in 8th) and place more value on AP instead of multiple damage.

 

But maybe it's too much. Or too little. Who knows.

 

Yeah I like this.  I think we're waiting for the next codex because the Stratagems really do need a complete overhaul.  I also agree that they need to be tougher and/or decrease in points.  I like re-rolling 1s, or I like -1 AP counts as 0 AP when wounding a Power Armored model.  Plus all characters get a 2+ save and Terminators go to 3 wounds each.  Vehicles go to T8/T9.

[Brother Captain Ed]

 

Honestly, the things needed to make enough of a difference rise to the level of a new codex, not an FAQ or even a CA.

 

Stratagems need a complete overhaul.

 

Points across the board need to be realigned (hurricane Bolters going up because they're too good on Stormravens, but then making LRC's more expensive as a result, for example).

 

Iconic rules like Drop Pod Assault need a complete overhaul.

 

And the functional/points relationship between scouts, tacs, and Intercessors needs some work too.

 

As far as quick fixes go, the idea occurred to me while playing AoS that maybe most space marines need something like "Honor Your Wargear: This model rerolls saves of 1." Granted AoS is a very different game, but it should make marines more survivable (a trait they are supposed to have, but almost totally lack in 8th) and place more value on AP instead of multiple damage.

 

But maybe it's too much. Or too little. Who knows.

 

In another thread people have brought up the same point about space marines not being tough enough with the current rules and that increasing the base marines wound charistic to two and primaris to three. Seems pretty solid to me. But I can see the reroll 1's on armour saves working as well. Makes sense with how much they take care of their equipment. But the rule would also need to apply to chaos marines who don't usually do that. I honestly think the increase in wounds would be the best approach.

 

I don't know a whole lot about the inner workings of traitor marines.  But, aside from Death Guard, I don't see a reason why they couldn't have the same rule.  It might even help <Chaos> as a whole find reasons to consider chaos marines instead of daemons and throngs of cultists. 

 

DG have a small issue in that it might make them *too* hard to kill as they are already Disgustingly Resilient.  I don't know.  I just don't have the experience to say.

 

As far as quick fixes go, even if it was just tac squads and Intercessors, it would help.  If it was all infantry except scouts, I think you could literally change nothing else and the codex would suddenly be much better.  It could even make the datasheet cooler:

 

They Are My Space Marines...: This unit rerolls saves of 1.

...And They Shall Know No Fear: Reroll failed battleshock tests.

[d36williams]

I'm not sure the C:SM codex is bad, its worst flaw is being boring. I was looking at the total results from Adepticon, and the C:SM armies were in a lump with a lot of codex armies. Craftworld Eldar, Space Marines, IG all did very similarly and were right around the average, and I think that parity is desirable. The incredible outliers were Ynarri, Tyranids and Chaos Soup on top, pre-codex armies at the bottom (except Sisters, who may have had the best Index army). Those armies are so far ahead that all other armies are seemingly irrelevant. 

 

Tyranids are driven by the strength of their Flyrants almost single handedly. Chaos has many builds but Pox Walker Factories combined with Tide of Traitors is literally insane. Moving twice and shooting twice for no Command Points spent Dark Reapers/Shining Spears are also nearly game breaking. There are many armies with shooting twice mechanics that aren't even stratagems or Yrnarri. Acts of Faith; Lemon Russ; Fire Prisms. A Sister of Battle is quicker on the trigger than a Space Marine? What the hell has that Space Marine been practicing for the last century? 

 

I think the worst part of C:SM is how boring it all is when put together. There is very little synergistic about it. Almost every Chaos non-deamon unit can use Veterans of the Long War, but the only similar Stratagem for C:SM is exclusively limited to Sternguard. Assault Marines, I guess they exist. They have Jump Packs. I'm still surprised there are no C:SM Jump Pack stratagems. 

 

There's so many units with -1 to hit, whats the point of Cover? That leaves my Imperial Fists chapter tactics as only marginally useful. In fact Terrain in this edition is laughable. It's either entirely LOS blocking (ITC) or completely irrelevant. 

 

There is a fundamental imbalance in 8e relating to the To Wound chart. 40 Cultists with 1 Damage weapons can put out 80 shots and potentially kill a Knight in one shooting phase, but that Knight will never kill 40 Cultists in one shooting phase. Morale, a "strength" of C:SM, may as well not exist in 8e as every unit that needs to ignore morale can find a way to do so (without even spending CP).

 

Morale seems like it was supposed to be the crux that balanced Elite VS Horde, but instead, it just does very little. 

 

To fix C:SM some changes I'd make include eliminating all "-1 to hit" except in the case of Heavy Weapons and maybe Fliers. -1 to hit is a direct modification of a die roll, as is Cover +1 to save, but there are ways to ignore cover, but there are only the Dark Reapers to get around -1 to hits, especially once the -1 to hits stack and stack. 

 

Exploding 6's, where rolls of a 6 generate the opportunity to roll more dice for extra hits, need to go. I like the newer rules that say "on to hit rolls of 6, this attack generates 2 hits." That isn't about balance, its about game play speed. It would also help Bolter Drill not suck so much. 

 

So, all of this put together: all but 3 armies are right there near the middle. Those three armies need addressment. Flyrants are ridiculous in every single phase. Ynarri combined with Codex traits are also ridiculous. I think there should be a limit on Tide of Traitors. Terminators should be able to Deep Strike closer than 9" away -- after all they teleport on to the Bridges of space craft, far more confined than a planet surface.  I played Chaos in the 90s and picked up Space Marines c2014ish. I'm worried Terminators will be a dead product line and I'll never get to meaningfully use Codex Terminators; and by never I mean literally forever and ever until the end of time. 

Veterans of the Long War compared to Expert Marksmanship simply pisses me off. A f-ing Cultist can do what a 200 year old Sternguard can do. I'm not sure I'd call it unbalanced just lame.

 

C:SM has a stupid number of units. For all the Stratagems though, it seems like you need one of each unit to use them. 

 

BTW Hunters are pretty good, cost almost the same as a Tactical Squad (with Lascannon) and has more wounds, better movement, better toughness, stick a storm bolter on it and its almost as much Dakka. Still I see your point; there are like 20 million Rhino variants with attendant Data Slates, but for some reason all the Lemon Russes can be listed on one Data Slate. :/

[Ishagu]

Yep. That's one issue right there. We basically have one stratagem per unit, and it's useless overall.

[Wargamer]

The unit specific stratagems are also stupidly specific. Three Predators required? Really? How about one Predator that didn't move? That seems a far more sensible criteria.

Iron Hands can have vehicles (or is it just Dreadnoughts?) move and fire heavy weapons without penalty. Great. That's not a Stratagem, that should be a core rule of the Space Marines faction - they're a surgical strike force.

 

Sternguard get their own stratagem, and that's about the only good idea in the list. Shame they didn't think to give any other iconic Astartes units a comparable ability.

[MeltaRange]

I think it's pretty clear that things have evolved over time, and the rules writers have learned some lessons.  There's a ton of stuff in the new codices coming out that play much better and are much more fun than what's in C:SM.  Even stuff as subtle as the 6+ to hit = 2 hits for Drukhari, rather than "roll another round of hits" like the older stuff.

 

That being said, it's not that they don't care enough to go back and make changes.  It's literally because it's in their best interest not to do so.  I work in product management for a software co, and we're always trying to tie revenue numbers to the development hours spent.  Why spend hours going back to fix an issue, when those hours could be better spent on a new codex coming out and making money off that new codex being purchased?  Just band-aid (FAQ) the older stuff to make it usable.  C:SM certainly is usable...but it's still infuriating to those playing it.  They likely designed it that way - make the most marketable faction the worst.  That way, you hook someone on the product and get them to buy more.  ("frustrated with Space Marines?  Why not buy another army from us then?")

 

TL;DR - Frankly, I'd never expect Space Marines to be the best army, or even close to it.

[Wargamer]

8th is the final revelation of God... sorry, I mean that GW has no intention to make a 9th Edition, which means at some point they need to re-release Codex: Space Marines or they're actively gimping their product line.