Perspectives for a Prompt Improvement of Space Marines

[Laughingman]

 

GW probably didn't expect that people would go min-sized units all the time. Silly GW.

This sums it up for me quite well! So many of the problems we are seeing were really easily, really obviously predictable from the rules and game mechanics and GW didn’t see it. It’s like the people designing it had never played before or had never met players before.

 

No incentive to take full squads when you can fill a detachment more easily with min sized ones, no additional benefits for a full squad to compensate and full sized squads are then more vulnerable to morale losses. All that was obvious from the start just by reading the rules, it really doesn’t fill you with confidence that the rules writers can balance the game. To me, promoting the use of full sized squads should be one of their priorities

 

 

The Solution would be to have full size squads unlock special abilities for example, a fury of the legion like mechanic....  Alternatively stratagem that are contingent on the base size squad being full size.... 

[Panzer]

The full siue squad unlocking stuff doesn't really work tho. The opponent kills one model and then you don't have anything but a big unit without benefits.

 

Maybe GW has to simply increase the min size of units across all Codexes. I mean Space Marines could still Combat Squad anyway and that way the rule might actually have a purpose for once.

Alternatively I like the idea of Tactical Squads giving 1CP for each 10 man unit. Saves a two HQs and detachment (for when detachments are restricted) compared to taking another Battalion.

 

Another idea I had was to completely rework the way you get CP and make unit dependant instead of detachments.

Like for example each Tactical Squad gives you 1CP, each Horde type unit just 0.5CP (so requires two to get 1CP) and Terminators give 2CP etc.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I would like to see something like genestealers have with crusader squads. We can take 20 model squad. And maby +1A if we have more than 15 models in the squad, gives Us some more CC potential. And it is easy as hell to make it rulewise.

[Laughingman]

The full siue squad unlocking stuff doesn't really work tho. The opponent kills one model and then you don't have anything but a big unit without benefits.

 

Maybe GW has to simply increase the min size of units across all Codexes. I mean Space Marines could still Combat Squad anyway and that way the rule might actually have a purpose for once.

Alternatively I like the idea of Tactical Squads giving 1CP for each 10 man unit. Saves a two HQs and detachment (for when detachments are restricted) compared to taking another Battalion.

 

Another idea I had was to completely rework the way you get CP and make unit dependant instead of detachments.

Like for example each Tactical Squad gives you 1CP, each Horde type unit just 0.5CP (so requires two to get 1CP) and Terminators give 2CP etc.

 

 

 

At least in my head the stratagem would be contingent on the unit starting with 10 space marines, and require more then five to be alive to actually do the Stratagem. 

 

 

 

I would like to see something like genestealers have with crusader squads. We can take 20 model squad. And maby +1A if we have more than 15 models in the squad, gives Us some more CC potential. And it is easy as hell to make it rulewise.

 

 

 

The problem is fluff wise 20 men squads represent something like 1/5 of a space marine company. The end of the legions largely brought a stop to such massed formations. The Leaner chapters transitioning away from army sized deployments to a more reactionary force...

 

edit: Post was referring too Black Templars who flout the Codex anyway..... My mistake 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We don't have companies. We have crusades and more marines than you!

[The Unseen]

As long as morale exists in its current state, you aren't going to see 10 man marine squads.

 

So I'd take marine units just being worth their points, and let combat squads end up as a mostly dead rule.

 

It'd have to be like, if you take 10 guys, the 10th one becomes a veteran sergeant, so bumped to Leadership 9, and can also bring a combi, along with +1 CP, and then you'd have a sarge for each combat squad, with the accompanying extra attacks and combi weapons.

 

That ridiculous sounding buff just brings buying 1 ten man squad up to "level" with buying 2 squads of 5.

HQs are cheap and very potent this edition, taking 4 in a list for a double battalion isn't difficult or feel like much of a "tax".

I always want at least a Captain, Librarian, and Chaplain anyway.

[OutlawSixActual]

I wonder how many fixes will be saved for the inevitable Codex: Primaris :P

[Ipsen]

Nah just give marines some decent per unit stratagems and/or psychic powers. Larger squads then being more efficient buff receivers which is the chief reason you use large squads in other armies. You want max size tac squads? Give em something that lets them fulfill their primary role better, sitting on an objective and not dying. Maybe strat/power for cover bonus in the open?

[Ishagu]

Psychic powers need a change too. The current set is rubbish.

 

Look at Chaos, Guard, Eldar, etc

 

Where's our move twice? Where's our +1 to shooting or Targeted invul removal? Where's our -1 to hit modifier?

 

Literally the worst powers in the game belong to our Codex.

[deathspectersgt7]

I wonder how many fixes will be saved for the inevitable Codex: Primaris

Best not hold your breath on that codex coming anytime soon or in the far future.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

First of all I think we need to keep in mind that the edition isn't even a year old yet, there are lots of routes that they can go to fix these disparities. For example adding a campaign book with new stratagems for multiple fractions would be a good move.

 

They also can make changes like not allowing the supreme command detachment in matched play (which I think is a better strategy than nerfing whatever new HQ is breaking it).

 

Or as has been mentioned banning soups, there are certain units like Inquisitors, and assassins that should have a special rule that provides a work around. Ynnari should have a similar rule with re-worked rules (they need to be looked at from the ground up, maybe a table that provides buffs based on how many units have died instead of extra actions). 

 

 

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

I wonder how many fixes will be saved for the inevitable Codex: Primaris

Best not hold your breath on that codex coming anytime soon or in the far future.

I wouldn’t be so sure, it may not be called codex Primaris but I firmly believe GW will slowly add more and more Primaris models to fill battlefield roles that the normal marines currently fill. Gradually the normal marines will be phased out, first by just always being the poorer choice to Primaris and eventually officially dropped by GW. If that happens, codex Space Marine will be codex Primaris by default.

 

Back on topic though, what Ishagu says is correct, Space Marine Psychic powers need an overhaul to be much more useful and in line with the abilities that other codexes have. Removing an invulnerable save and a second movement would be my top picks.

[Ipsen]

 

 Removing an invulnerable save and a second movement would be my top picks.

 

Space marines can already remove invulnerable saves with null zone?

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

Removing an invulnerable save and a second movement would be my top picks.

Space marines can already remove invulnerable saves with null zone?

Yeah but the range is only a 6 inch aura from the psyker. It means it’s much too easy to screen against and you can’t affect the unit you really need to. It needs to be more like Death Hex where you pick a unit within 12 inches and prevent it taking invulnerable saves.

 

Admittedly poor wording on my part in the original post though, I meant it needs to be a better way.

[Skaorn]

Why do SM need better psychic power? There are armies without it; the Tau being the worst with nothing to let them even deny the witch.

[MARK0SIAN]

Why do SM need better psychic power? There are armies without it; the Tau being the worst with nothing to let them even deny the witch.

Because if we are paying the same (and often more) price as other factions but getting worse powers then they need improving to balance it out. Or the other forces need theirs nerfing. Or Space Marine ones need to be cheaper.

 

However I totally agree about non-psyker armies. They have really had the short end of the stick with this edition. They have been compensated in no way whatsoever for their lack of them and given no defence against them in most cases. That is something I would dearly like to see addressed as I also play some of those armies. However addressing that will not improve Space Marines which was my focus in the last post.

[Dracos]

Compensation? I think it’s called Drones. Every army has their “thing” with the Astartes it’s tough considering them elite when in truth they are the generalist, the baseline. Kill Supreme HQ detachments and psyker slam becomes less an issue. That said I’d like to see a little bling for Vanilla Marines come next Chapter Approved. I’m still enough of a “gamer” I won’t field a unit without it performing a task that enhances the army build/strategy at a reasonable price (Looking at you Centurians)

 

Prompt improvement? More Primaris units to fill their tactical gaps :(

[MARK0SIAN]

We are going quite off topic here but drones are a good unit, however they’re not adequate compensation for not being able to take part in an entire phase of the game. Imagine if your army couldn’t take part in the movement phase, the shooting phase, or the assault phase! You’d rightly be annoyed. Now I’m not saying someone like tau should take part in the psychic phase but they shouldn’t just have an entire phase of the game ‘happen’ to them with no response, or that phase should entail considerably more risk/cost for the psyker armies than it currently does.

 

Anyway, to get back on topic (apologies to mods) I think the most we can expect from the faq is points reductions and even then, that might be asking a lot considering they said CA was for big points changes. What points changes do people thing would have the biggest impact on SM armies? Is it making the troops cheaper or would it be a bigger improvement to reduce the cost of heavies or elites? Personally I would say the latter as I don’t think troops can be improved by points changes alone.

[Ishagu]

To be fair Codex Marines don't really take any part in the psychic phase either. As I mentioned our powers are trash. All we do is attempt to deny...

[Leif Bearclaw]

First of all I think we need to keep in mind that the edition isn't even a year old yet, there are lots of routes that they can go to fix these disparities. For example adding a campaign book with new stratagems for multiple fractions would be a good move.

 

I dunno, it kinda seems bad to me that we're less than a year into this edition, and we're already seeing such massive codex creep/power disparities. For what was sold as the 'bestest 40k ever, where every unit has its place' it's pretty disappointing to see them immediately fail into the same bad habits we've seen in the last couple of editions. They had the opportunity with the 8th reset to make sweeping changes, to truly improve the ruleset. Yet we seem to be having essentially the same arguments as in 7th, complete with 'Marines are too expensive, but if you make them cheaper, how does that trickle down to Sisters/Scions/Guard/Fire Warriors etc'. We already seem to be locked into a 'race to the bottom' of making units cheaper (especially with the DE book, was shocked just how cheap their stuff was, even acknowledging its fragility), what's the long term plan?

 

Yes, they have the opportunity to 'fix' things with CA and the regular FAQs, but will they? They just seem to make the same old mistakes, and the adjustments we've seen thus far have been less 'graduated, considered decision to improve the overall health of the game' and more 'this did particularly well in the Tournaments, heavy duty and/or highly arbitrary nerf NOW1'.

 

[Deathwalker]

I think part of the issue is, and has been for many years is that SM (MEQ) are considered the "standard" from a math-hammer POV, and that's just flat out wrong. IG (GEQ) should be the standard for regular troops. If you make MEQ's the standard, you are removing them from the status of elite to the status of standard while still charging them to be elite.

That is not how it should work.

[Volt]

IMO what would help is making all marines 2 wound models with a 6+ FNP across the entire army (well, infantry) to represent the face that Astartes are supposed to have instant clotting and scarification of wounds, making it impossible to bleed them out. Not only is there a fluffy excuse for it, it would drastically increase all Astartes armies staying power and justify the usage of troops besides being infiltration spammed Scouts. 

[Dracos]

To be fair Codex Marines don't really take any part in the psychic phase either. As I mentioned our powers are trash. All we do is attempt to deny...

“To be fair” ... that’s why I’m converting a Primaris Chappie model into a Shadow Walker “counts as” <Cullexus>.

[Ishagu]

I think part of the issue is, and has been for many years is that SM (MEQ) are considered the "standard" from a math-hammer POV, and that's just flat out wrong. IG (GEQ) should be the standard for regular troops. If you make MEQ's the standard, you are removing them from the status of elite to the status of standard while still charging them to be elite.

That is not how it should work.

The problem is that the lower cost troops have all sorts of free, in-built rules.

 

Guardsmen can shoot twice, or move twice, or leave combat and shoot through orders. Scions can take lots of special weapons and can arrive from reserve without a transport and have access to orders, Gaunts are immune to morale thanks to synapse, etc, etc.

 

Marines units in general are paying a lot for a statline which isn't anywhere near as impactful. A standard Marine shouldn't cost over 3x More than a Guardsman when you consider all the special rules and abilities you can layer in top of the Guard. If anything, a Marine should be less than twice the cost - (11 points vs 6 for a Guardsman for example). This is only one step. As we're all in agreement this adjustment needs to be applied alongside re-worked stratagems and new psychic powers.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

C:SM psychic powers I think should be utilitarian in nature.  I'd like to see stuff like "Warp charge 7, on a 4+, counter(dispel) one enemy stratagem.  One use only."  Or maybe buff veil of time "warp charge 6, give a friendly infantry unit the the ability to fallback and shoot/charge and advance/charge without any penalties.  Basically juice up a unit of guys to do whatever the hell they want.  

 

Marines psychic power could also have straight up buffs to damage or survivability.  Something like "Warp charge 6, one enemy unit within 24" subtracts 1 from all save rolls."  or "warp charge 7, friendly units within 6" cannot be targetted by overwatch and gain +1" to all charge rolls.     

 

These are powers that are cutsy and useful in just about any matchup/gametype.