Perspectives for a Prompt Improvement of Space Marines

[Sete]

A better CT for Templars. To hell with psychic powers.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

A better CT for Templars. To hell with psychic powers.

I kind of like their CT.  It isnt Blood Angels good but it adds a lot of reliability to their charges.  Maybe give it like reroll all charges and add +1".  That would give templars some really reliable charges.  

[MARK0SIAN]

C:SM psychic powers I think should be utilitarian in nature. I'd like to see stuff like "Warp charge 7, on a 4+, counter(dispel) one enemy stratagem. One use only." Or maybe buff veil of time "warp charge 6, give a friendly infantry unit the the ability to fallback and shoot/charge and advance/charge without any penalties. Basically juice up a unit of guys to do whatever the hell they want.

 

Marines psychic power could also have straight up buffs to damage or survivability. Something like "Warp charge 6, one enemy unit within 24" subtracts 1 from all save rolls." or "warp charge 7, friendly units within 6" cannot be targetted by overwatch and gain +1" to all charge rolls.

 

These are powers that are cutsy and useful in just about any matchup/gametype.

I really love the powers you’re suggesting, they would be great. The only thing I would change is that if you cast the power successfully it shouldn’t then be tied to a 4+ dice roll to work. If you cast it, you cast it, otherwise the power becomes too much of a long shot to ever be worth it. 7 is already the average roll of 2D6, meaning it will fail 50% of the time, to then say all successful casts can fail a further 50% of the time is a bit too much of a drawback.

 

The other thing to think about is sequencing. A unit would have already had to fall back out of combat before the psychic phase so asking them to do that and hope they got the power to shoot/fight normally cast in the next phase is a huge risk. You would also have to say the power to deny a stratagem lasted until the end of your opponents next turn to be useful as less than half the stratagems are played during your opponents turn.

 

But with a few tweaks like that I think those powers could be incredibly useful, certainly more so than some of the powers we have now.

[redmapa]

 

A better CT for Templars. To hell with psychic powers.

I kind of like their CT.  It isnt Blood Angels good but it adds a lot of reliability to their charges.  Maybe give it like reroll all charges and add +1".  That would give templars some really reliable charges.  

 

 

I like their new CT too, it adds a lot of viability to a bunch of units and it does feel like a Fleet based chapter deploying en mass from orbit. That being said the problem with BT (and WS, perhaps to a lesser extent) is that while their assaults may be more reliable there is no real kick to any of their units and that is even more of a problem when the codex itself does not support close combat in any way, assault is an after-thought and so are the BT in the codex.

 

Blood Angels, and soon SW, are a codex that supports close combat with several units being great or having several stratagems that buff that particular phase of their game, Black Templars have Honor the Chapter and Only in Death..., and thats it, the fact that our tactic kind of shoehorns us into assault focus ends up being a bit of a detriment when there is nothing to support it and while reliability is great BA are much better with their Stratagems that allow them to roll 3d6 for range and then reroll that distance if needed and in our own codex Raven Guard can be even more reliable with their Stratagem allowing them to infiltrate large units, move them up the board and potentially needing 3" charges for those units.

 

The fact that this has been the best the BT have been since late 5th edition is kind of sad because they are still crap, still stuck in a codex where they dont fit and still without Vows or anything, 3 editions later and the fact is we traded our codex for absolutely nothing.  We hit like freaking wet noodles and have very few attacks and it all sucks because for a SM army you trade anti-horde or anti-tank for close combat units so you're always lacking something while gaining very little

 

I like Black Templars and I hope this summer a supplement comes and gives all chapters a new pool of Stratagems and I HOPE they dont forget about Templars this time like they did in the Angels of Death supplement.

[Ishagu]

At least you're not missing out on psychic powers anymore - No one is taking Librarians :-P

[Iron Father Ferrum]

At least you're not missing out on psychic powers anymore - No one is taking Librarians :-P

 

I do.  Might of Heroes is good for boosting the Toughness of my Dreadnoughts -- it brings my Ironclads and Land Raiders to T9, which helps to turn down lascannons and lances -- and Null Zone worked well for me two weeks ago to shut down shield drones.  Not to mention that Smite was useful for circumventing the stealth effects of a Ghostkeel that got a little too close.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

C:SM psychic powers I think should be utilitarian in nature. I'd like to see stuff like "Warp charge 7, on a 4+, counter(dispel) one enemy stratagem. One use only." Or maybe buff veil of time "warp charge 6, give a friendly infantry unit the the ability to fallback and shoot/charge and advance/charge without any penalties. Basically juice up a unit of guys to do whatever the hell they want.

 

Marines psychic power could also have straight up buffs to damage or survivability. Something like "Warp charge 6, one enemy unit within 24" subtracts 1 from all save rolls." or "warp charge 7, friendly units within 6" cannot be targetted by overwatch and gain +1" to all charge rolls.

 

These are powers that are cutsy and useful in just about any matchup/gametype.

I really love the powers you’re suggesting, they would be great. The only thing I would change is that if you cast the power successfully it shouldn’t then be tied to a 4+ dice roll to work. If you cast it, you cast it, otherwise the power becomes too much of a long shot to ever be worth it. 7 is already the average roll of 2D6, meaning it will fail 50% of the time, to then say all successful casts can fail a further 50% of the time is a bit too much of a drawback.

 

The other thing to think about is sequencing. A unit would have already had to fall back out of combat before the psychic phase so asking them to do that and hope they got the power to shoot/fight normally cast in the next phase is a huge risk. You would also have to say the power to deny a stratagem lasted until the end of your opponents next turn to be useful as less than half the stratagems are played during your opponents turn.

 

But with a few tweaks like that I think those powers could be incredibly useful, certainly more so than some of the powers we have now.

 

Yeah I just didnt want to sit here for an hour parsing the rules... i just wanted the overall idea to come through which I think i managed.

I actually applied for a rules designer job at GW about a month ago.  They didnt contact me.  Hopefully they didnt give an interview to people that think that everyone should be -3 to hit eldar flyers but that giving chapter tactics to space marine tanks is OP as heck.  They clearly hired people with that view in the last couple of years.

[d36williams]

In the Imperial Guard Psychana they have some powers that are pretty enviable, like Psychic Barrier: "this unit has +1 to their saving throw." A power like that would be awesome for Marines. Nightshroud: "this unit is -1 to hit."

[Ishagu]

 

 

At least you're not missing out on psychic powers anymore - No one is taking Librarians :-P

I do. Might of Heroes is good for boosting the Toughness of my Dreadnoughts -- it brings my Ironclads and Land Raiders to T9, which helps to turn down lascannons and lances -- and Null Zone worked well for me two weeks ago to shut down shield drones. Not to mention that Smite was useful for circumventing the stealth effects of a Ghostkeel that got a little too close.

Boosting one unit's toughness by 1 is OK, not a game changer. It was decent when cast on a Falchion but that unit was nerfed out of the game.

 

Null Zone is too situational and difficult to cast. Librarians have no invul, only a few wounds and limited offensive capabilities yet it expects you to move them within inches of key enemy units, and then to attempt a power which you have a lower than 50% chance to cast. No thanks. You can't build a legitimate tactic around this.

[Dracos]

I plan on giving the Indomitus Armor to my Librarian. Even converting an Aggressor model to do so ... but yeah you have to work at it to make Librarians useful and I’m not a fan of hoping for specific situations. Until they ant to make Libbies work for Vanilla Marines I’ll stick with anti-psyker tactics like snipers and Cullexus.

 

What I’d like to see is a Libtarian power designed for each Chapter that has a Chapter Tactic in the Codex. Only Librarians from that Chapter could take that Psyker Power. Something that enhances Troop choices with that Chaoters unique combat tactics.

[Ishagu]

That's the best case scenario, but I'd be happy with powers that provide specific application you can fit into your tactics.

 

Warp Time is amazing, and would have a huge impact on loyalist Marine units like Dreads, Assault Squads, Terminators, etc

 

Prescience is very useful and doubly so for units that are affected by moving.

 

I have no idea what the rules writers were thinking when they wrote our psychic discipline. It's truly useless in most situations and has almost no impact on any games. I stopped taking Librarians a week after the codex dropped as they offer nothing.

Tigarius is OK thanks to his -1 to hit ability, but as an illustration of how much better other armies have it, Guard can get the same buff for 30 points from any generic Astropath.

[Sete]

I'm still waiting for a proper cc unit for Primaris.

 

Reivers don't really go with my vision of Templars.

 

And that's my main issue with it so far. The rest I can work with.

But give me a variation of crusader squads for Primaris. Just add a sprue with chainswords, a power weapon and a flamer.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Yep. And Maby Power sword option for reiver sergant. 3 PW attacks will improve Cc abilities a lot.

[Panzer]

Reiver aren't even a real melee unit. They have 1 attack more than Intercessors but it's still only S4 AP0. I mostly use them as Distraction Carnifex (deep strike/flank and me painting them golden with Sanguinary Guard heads helps a lot there lol) but even for that I rarely have the feel they pulled their weight unlike Intercessors despite them being basically the same just without deep strike and with a better gun and a Power Sword on the Sergeant.

[Dracos]

Some have mentioned Veteran Primaris and I can’t argue that if they were anything like the Vanilla Vets they’ll be worthwhile but the Elite slots are bursting at the seams in choices already. Making the Reiver combat blade -1 AP should be a thing.

 

If we’re getting a melee oriented Primaris squad if like to see it in the Fast Attack slots. Either a CC grav-bike or preferably a CC Interceptor squad either with the Reiver -1 AP combat blade or something from the HH but updated. I say something because I’m not in the know of potential options that would bring the HH combat style into the present. I just think it would be a thing GW is trying to do with the Primaris.

[Ishagu]

If the Reivers get a -1 ap combat blade that would be pretty awesome. I run mine with carbines at the moment.

[Race Bannon]

Bump the combat blade.  Cawl-pattern Chainsword FTW. 

 

Seriously, if he's going to improve the holy bolter, then it'd be heresy not to do something with the other stereotypical Space Marine weapon.

[Sete]

Heavy chainswords!

[Dracos]

If the Reivers get a -1 ap combat blade that would be pretty awesome. I run mine with carbines at the moment.

See I can almost guarantee within the next three months (towards end of ETL) I’ll vow my Reivers and no sooner that the clue has set the carbines, GW Chapter Approved will inform us of a change to Reiver weapon data, or Race’s buddy will release an upgrade spruce with Cawl-pattern chainswords. :(

 

Which I will then gobble up two squads before the Black Templar players clean the shelves off :D

(my real luck ... Black Templar exclusive upgrade lol)

[d36williams]

Regarding Null Zone, if you accept you're going to use a Command Point reroll to cast the Warp Charge 8 power, you can cast it about 68% of the time. However all that situational stuff -- be within 6", with a survivable Librarian, the concerns are valid. 

[Ipsen]

Yeah i was using a couple on bikes to kill a mortarion a while ago. Throwing them in on suicide runs to null zone him for the lascannon barrage. On bikes they had no trouble getting there but the one without armour indomitus got insta-gibbed every time.

[ERJAK]

 

A better CT for Templars. To hell with psychic powers.

I kind of like their CT.  It isnt Blood Angels good but it adds a lot of reliability to their charges.  Maybe give it like reroll all charges and add +1".  That would give templars some really reliable charges.  

 

Has a non-deepstriking black templars unit ever successfully made it into charge range before? I can't imagine they have.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm certain people don't take Crusader Squads because they look good, so yeah, I'm sure they have actually.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

I must disagree. We take crusader squads because it is our bawić troop choice And is better than tacticals. But in term of charging An CC they don’t want do This, Unless necessary, as other basic marines troops. Also we can footslogging through battlefield, or go in rhinos. But we can do that only If we have some diatraction units that can charge enemy gunlines turn one, preventing them to shoot at our troops... . Without This ability we have no option to move through battlefield, And that is a problem for many CC armies. Also re-roll charge is most usefull in DS, because If you go normal on the triumf Probably you don’t need re-roll due to fact tha t you can move closer then 9”.