Is the creation of Space Marines inherently immoral?

[DogWelder]

So this is an idea that expressed a lot on this forum when it comes to discussions on Grimdark: that the Space Marines represent one of the most Grimdark aspects of the Imperium because they are essentially innocent boys who are converted into killing machines that have no role in regular human society.

 

Doesn't the very existence of the Ultramarines as a Legion and a Chapter (as well as some of their successors) disprove that. Ultramarine initiates are selected from volunteers of noble houses and military academies all across Ultramar. Being selected for service gives the family of the volunteer a massive rise in presitge as well as a financial grant to compensate for their loss.

 

They serve as regular marines most of the time but are greatly encouraged to take up governance/political study in order to ensure they can make humanity prosper as leaders instead of simply keeping it alive (detailed in 'Fall of Damnos'). Once they get too old to continue fighting or are injured too gravely they are assigned as Praefactors of one of the planets of Ultramar should they meet the standards for governance. (detailed more in 'Chapters Due'). 

 

You could argue that this is just a feature of the Ultramarines and most Chapters are much more Grimdark. However, many of the Ultramarine successors do participate in governance as well (example being the Genesis Chapter and White Consuls detailed in the Word Bearers and Night Lords Omnibus). 

 

Anyway, the main point is that Astartes can be effectively transitioned into non-combat duties as 'Warrior-Princes' meaning that they can be made to have a productive role in humanity outside the battlefield. 

[Bryan Blaire]

That they can be effectively transitioned into non-combat duties proves that the creation of child-soldiers programmed into fearless (and in most cases, seemingly emotionally stunted overall) combat "Frankenstein" monsters and robbing them of the entirety of their humanity how?

 

Saying that one thing can become another doesn't inherently make that thing stop being whatever the first element is...

 

The morality or not of the creation of Space Marines doesn't negate their place in the world either, nor stop them from being inherently necessary.

[DogWelder]

That they can be effectively transitioned into non-combat duties proves that the creation of child-soldiers programmed into fearless (and in most cases, seemingly emotionally stunted overall) combat "Frankenstein" monsters and robbing them of the entirety of their humanity how?

 

Saying that one thing can become another doesn't inherently make that thing stop being whatever the first element is...

 

The morality or not of the creation of Space Marines doesn't negate their place in the world either, nor stop them from being inherently necessary.

 

But what id they're volunteering for this with full awareness of what the program entails such as in the example above?

[Demus Ragnok]

First define immoral.

[Bryan Blaire]

But what id they're volunteering for this with full awareness of what the program entails such as in the example above?

Volunteering for something doesn't change the nature of that thing.

 

If someone volunteers for a suicide mission, does it make it any more or less of a suicide mission? Does it change any inherent properties of the goal or means of the mission itself?

 

If the forging of a daemon weapon requires the quenching of each fold of the metal or soaking of each exposed chip of the knapped stone in the living blood of a being until it dies, does it change the nature of the creation if all the beings volunteer to be killed to make the weapon?

[Machine God]

But they're not innocent boy's apart from maybe the Ultramarine's, every other chapters recruits even the Sallies are top of the food chain psycho warriors that beat all of their other aspirants to the job of becoming a Space Marine Scout in trials by combat.

 

They knew what they were doing.

[Bryan Blaire]

One might even say that being a military cadet from age five or so, with all the inherent training that entails, means that those selected for the Ultramarines are far from "innocent" in the first place.

 

In addition to defining immoral (or at least defining the morality used to determine that something is immoral), you also have to describe how you are interpreting/defining innocent and/or what said initiates are innocent of.

 

The flip-side of all of this is "Let's accept the initial premise, that the Ultramarines alone (or in the few) show that the creation isn't immoral for all the reasons stated" - statistically, a single outlier of an event doesn't "prove" that the overall system/understanding isn't valid, it shows a single outlier from the trend. Since we know that some of the Ultramarine Successors don't follow their progenitor's methods of recruitment, the inferred result is that the majority trend doesn't seem to be disproven at all.

[jeffersonian000]

The whole concept of transhuman child soldiers is immoral from our cultural perspective. But from within the culture of 40k? It would be Heresy to not create transhuman child soldiers. Context is everything.

 

SJ

[Volt]

Ethics cease to matter when it's survival itself on the line; in which case the imperative is to do whatever is necessary to ensure one's survival, regardless of what that entails. Morality exists in a state of flux anywhere, with morals increasing or decreasing in their comprehensive treatment of life to meet the demands of the civilization that holds them. A civilization that hangs on the precipice of destruction will have little cares for individuals rights, whereas one existing in a golden age of peace and stability will likely be progressive in nature. 

[Laughingman]

For every legion of Warrior administrators (Ultramarines and there successors), another was created with the intention of being a largely destructive force: Iconoclasts , World breakers, etc. So the point is moot... 

[Cryptix]

For every legion of Warrior administrators (Ultramarines and there successors), another was created with the intention of being a largely destructive force: Iconoclasts , World breakers, etc. So the point is moot... 

You would think they'd learn their lesson after Perturabo and Angron...

[DogWelder]

For every legion of Warrior administrators (Ultramarines and there successors), another was created with the intention of being a largely destructive force: Iconoclasts , World breakers, etc. So the point is moot... 

 

True but my point was more that it could be done even if its application is limited.

 

And tbh I don't think the whole 'warrior prince' thing should be widespread since its more of the Ultramarine's unique trait. The volunteering thing should though since I think an all-volunteer fighting force is much more dedicated than one that was drafted. 

[Bryan Blaire]

The volunteering thing should though since I think an all-volunteer fighting force is much more dedicated than one that was drafted.

That's what recruiting trials typically are, though, volunteering - fighting to gain the blessings of the Sky People, or some such like that. I don't know that many of the Space Marine Chapters recruit from the unwilling. They may not know exactly what they are being willing to become, but most are happy to be selected for the process once they understand, even if the process might cost them their life.

[Redtoof]

As I understand it most would be Space Marines are chosen from those way below a modern day age of consent. Even if a child volunteers for the process by today's standards we would think them not old enough to make such an important decision. Any decision made on behalf of a child that would earn their family a lot of money but will most likely involve the child being killed very young due to organ failure is probably not going to be taken in the child's best interest.

 

Its definitely immoral. As people have mentioned though, morality is less of a concern when there are giant alien bugs that want to eat your entire species and the like.

[SpecialIssue]

 

For every legion of Warrior administrators (Ultramarines and there successors), another was created with the intention of being a largely destructive force: Iconoclasts , World breakers, etc. So the point is moot... 

 

True but my point was more that it could be done even if its application is limited.

 

And tbh I don't think the whole 'warrior prince' thing should be widespread since its more of the Ultramarine's unique trait. The volunteering thing should though since I think an all-volunteer fighting force is much more dedicated than one that was drafted. 

 

 

Not when they've undergone rigorous hypno-indoctrination and brainwashing specifically to forestall such problems such as 'motivation'. Whether they've volunteered or not has ceased to matter.

 

 

The Imperium, even during the Great Crusade operated on a simpler, more ruthless set of morals than our civilization, something that the Romans and Greeks would have been more familiar with. For even with all the talk of bringing enlightenment and knowledge, the main focus was always on gaining and maintaining more power, first and above all. The Imperial Palace was built with slave labour, Terra still had hives that lived in squalor and violence. The legions for the most part purposely kept their homeworlds in a primitive and violent state to foster strength and a warrior culture in their recruits.

 

And the Emperor didn't care.

 

And yes, even if they did volunteer, they are essentially still kids, highly suggestible, and with their family to greatly benefit from their sacrifice. In Ultramar noble houses its probably more of them being raised from birth to 'volunteer' by their family. Highly efficient and produces good recruitment stock, but not exactly 'moral'.

[Laughingman]

Some of the early legion "volunteers" were likely child soldiers/ Void privateers who had spent there entire life around war. So they may have been making a slightly more informed decision then most,  Others were drawn from more sinister purposes, for example the XVII Heralds originally drew many of the early recruits from the sons of fallen Tyrants, made to know their fathers sins, and that service to the emperor was there price for forgiveness... 

[Bryan Blaire]

Even with volunteering, it isn't like the Marines themselves even understand as much of the process of becoming a Marine clinically as we do, possibly not even the Apothecaries. I doubt there is full disclosure to every single family with a volunteer what the actual success rate of what they are volunteering for is-or that the child is more likely to become a serf/menial or a servitor because they can't progress any farther with the implants, they didn't balance right or went crazy from them and had to be lobotomized. Simply volunteering and knowing they will never see their child again in a recognizable form is what gets them the status and money.

 

And none of that even touches the indoctrination of the Chapter Cult - for some reason that doesn't seem to be touched on much in any novels, but it would be very interesting to get a better look at the Marine religion (that sounds almost unique Chapter by Chapter, but shares close similarities amongst gene lines) that they will become a part of regardless when they are a Marine.

[DogWelder]

Bryan this is the first time I heard about the Chapter cult since my info comes mainly from the novels. Its a pretty interesting concept.

 

I remember the initiation of Uriel Ventris (from the Ultramarine Omnibus) seemed very 'cadet-like' though. His father was a wealthy owner of a agricultural guild/corporation on Calth and sent Ventris to the main Ultramarine training academy on Macragge where he placed at the top of his class consistently and was offered the opportunity to become an initiate for the Chapter or simply become go into the Ultramar Auxilia (which seems to be what happens when you fail the Ultramarine initiation trials too). 

 

Book didn't really explore his motivations in detail but it was more that he wanted to be the best/most elite so that's why he took the offer.

[Ishagu]

Our social morality is not applicable to the world of 40k. It's a science fiction, only losely inspired by our current world.

 

Children have been trained into soldiers from a young age throughout history. The Spartans would literally kill a baby if it was a bit smaller than what they considered normal.

 

What transpires in 40k is a necessity brought about by the universe itself. The worlds of Ultramar probably recruit in the most efficient, humane and positive way, and ultimately it's a noble endeavour. The Imperium is not our world. In the Imperium humans are a biological resource and are expended as such.

[Lay]

What's seen as immoral varies even within the setting, especially when it comes to Space Marines:

 

The heart of a chapter's fall is often to be found in the basis of its faith. Each Space marine chapter lives by its own dogma, and every aspect of its existence is informed by a combination of the Imperial Creed, Great Crusade lore, ever-evolving chapter legend and native belief.

 

If a chapter recruits exclusively from one specific culture, then a great many of the beliefs and traditions of that culture often find their way into chapter doctrine. Dozens of chapters recruited from feral world populations, where the native warrior lifestyle and naked aggression provide the most promising Neophytes, and often these primitive beliefs will mingle with the Imperial Creed.

 

Over time, a chapter's body of beliefs may change significantly, isolated as they are from the practices of other bodies. Were a subject of the Imperium to witness the initiation rituals or victory celebrations of any number of perfectly loyal, steadfast chapters, he might recoil in horror, taking the brethren for heretics. It is equally true that what may appear perfectly normal practices on one world would be viewed with outright disgust on another, and both would undoubtedly have their place within the great church that is the worship of the God-Emperor of Mankind. And so, for one such as an Inquisitor to openly decry the religious practices of a chapter as heretical, such practices must surely have gone way beyond the pale.

 

- Index Astartes IV: Rogues Sons (3E)

[Panzer]

Even with volunteering, it isn't like the Marines themselves even understand as much of the process of becoming a Marine clinically as we do, possibly not even the Apothecaries. I doubt there is full disclosure to every single family with a volunteer what the actual success rate of what they are volunteering for is-or that the child is more likely to become a serf/menial or a servitor because they can't progress any farther with the implants, they didn't balance right or went crazy from them and had to be lobotomized. Simply volunteering and knowing they will never see their child again in a recognizable form is what gets them the status and money.

And none of that even touches the indoctrination of the Chapter Cult - for some reason that doesn't seem to be touched on much in any novels, but it would be very interesting to get a better look at the Marine religion (that sounds almost unique Chapter by Chapter, but shares close similarities amongst gene lines) that they will become a part of regardless when they are a Marine.

Actually the Blood Angels tell the children multiple times during the tests whether they're worthy that the ones who get send home or serve as serfs or even just as servitor are actually the lucky ones and to be envied because they don't have to live a life of several hundred years of constant killing and warfare with all the universes horrors. It's pretty sobbering and not few children decide to give up on the dream to become an angel when they're given the choice for the first time. I also don't remember the family getting anything in return (but that could be just my memory).

 

That being said, the child soldier thing is even worse with Blood Angels since after all those trials they get injected with the geneseed, experience the Red Thirst for the first time (something nobody told them about before) and then get put into a sarcophagus for one or two years (I forgot) where they emerge from as full grown Astartes. One day a child wanting to become an angel and the next day having the body of an Astartes and suffering under the maddening thirst for blood must be a pretty scary change. And all that without the brainwashing to this point.

It's actually amazing that the Blood Angels didn't fall to chaos the way they create their Marines if you think about it.

[momerathe]

I mean.. the Charcharodons enslave the children on the planets they conquer, force them to fight each other to the death, then forcibly induct the survivors into the Chapter. 

[Skaorn]

I have a n umber of friends who are social workers who deal with abused children of all kind. It's amazing what you can get a child to believe over years of abuse before even ancient societies would consider a child an adult, even just through emotional abuse. It's a job I could never do as I don't think I could be in a room with someone I've learned, from the children they work with, that had sexually abused them and not try to kill that person. Hopefully this makes you uncomfortable, because it should. The victimization of children, whether they see it as such or not, is always immoral and should be presented as such.

 

Let's be clear, indoctrination of a five year old via a military academy is the same as indoctrination by a dangerous religious cult or a warlord getting kids addicted to a mix of cocaine and gunpowder. You are grooming a child to willingly except abuse as reality. Telling a child they can back out of that reality when you have been conditioning them to keep going anyways, does not make it okay. The creation of SM should be considered a sign of how horrible the Imperium is. I also think it's a bad idea to dismiss our morality in the face of a fictional setting when we got to grow up to play war with little plastic men while real life child soldiers exist.

[Volt]

I have a n umber of friends who are social workers who deal with abused children of all kind. It's amazing what you can get a child to believe over years of abuse before even ancient societies would consider a child an adult, even just through emotional abuse. It's a job I could never do as I don't think I could be in a room with someone I've learned, from the children they work with, that had sexually abused them and not try to kill that person. Hopefully this makes you uncomfortable, because it should. The victimization of children, whether they see it as such or not, is always immoral and should be presented as such.

 

Let's be clear, indoctrination of a five year old via a military academy is the same as indoctrination by a dangerous religious cult or a warlord getting kids addicted to a mix of cocaine and gunpowder. You are grooming a child to willingly except abuse as reality. Telling a child they can back out of that reality when you have been conditioning them to keep going anyways, does not make it okay. The creation of SM should be considered a sign of how horrible the Imperium is. I also think it's a bad idea to dismiss our morality in the face of a fictional setting when we got to grow up to play war with little plastic men while real life child soldiers exist.

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind, as the fate of annihilation is unacceptable. Its use merely shows the dire status of the species in 40k, given that all of man is poised to be wiped from the face of existence at any point in time. And that is only via the mobilization of the entire population and militarization of every aspect of society that it sustains itself. 

[Panzer]

I have a n umber of friends who are social workers who deal with abused children of all kind. It's amazing what you can get a child to believe over years of abuse before even ancient societies would consider a child an adult, even just through emotional abuse. It's a job I could never do as I don't think I could be in a room with someone I've learned, from the children they work with, that had sexually abused them and not try to kill that person. Hopefully this makes you uncomfortable, because it should. The victimization of children, whether they see it as such or not, is always immoral and should be presented as such.

 

Let's be clear, indoctrination of a five year old via a military academy is the same as indoctrination by a dangerous religious cult or a warlord getting kids addicted to a mix of cocaine and gunpowder. You are grooming a child to willingly except abuse as reality. Telling a child they can back out of that reality when you have been conditioning them to keep going anyways, does not make it okay. The creation of SM should be considered a sign of how horrible the Imperium is. I also think it's a bad idea to dismiss our morality in the face of a fictional setting when we got to grow up to play war with little plastic men while real life child soldiers exist.

 

Agreed, however that's judged with todays societys (actually mostly just the western societys) eyes and moral compass. Moral changes a lot over time, circumstances and even just from culture to culture. I like ours for the most part but I don't think it's that appropriate to use to judge how things are done in the 40k universe.

Now that leaves the question of what the OP wants to know ... is it immoral judged by todays western societys moral compass? Yes. Yes it is. Is it immoral judged by the various worlds, cultures and whatnot moral compass of the 40k universe? No, it isn't.