Is the creation of Space Marines inherently immoral?

[rendingon1+]

OP, just wanted to insert how UM are greatest of them all because they do politics. Nothing in the first post really touches the thread title. Standard.

[Elzender]

Another factor that might be taken into consideration, and that has actually come up in some previous posts, is that many chapters recruit from feral/death worlds, where the average life span might not go much further than twenties/thirties, and probably what we consider children (10-14 years) are already "fully grown" members of that society. Moreover, as it has been said, it is not unusual for them to be volunteers or the winners of contests and fights to be able to join the space marine trials. While the process is still quite inhuman and completely unacceptable by today's western society standards, I do think it is a bit different when we take into account some of the differences in the societies chapters might recruit from. Then again, the average citizen in the Imperium is practically a slave working 16 hours a day in a factory, who breathes recycled air and sees the sunlight once a year at most. Grimdark is always in the menu, but sometimes you get to choose the flavour.

[DogWelder]

OP, just wanted to insert how UM are greatest of them all because they do politics. Nothing in the first post really touches the thread title. Standard.

 

I never really implied this makes them the greatest Chapter :P

 

In fact I could point out quite a few weaknesses to this recruiting strategy as well. The need for an extensive infrastructure like on Macragge, the fact that recruiting could be crippled if this infrastructure was taken out by an invading force (such as with Armatura during the Shadow Crusade), too much standardization leading to lack of initiative etc. 

[Beren]

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind, as the fate of annihilation is unacceptable. Its use merely shows the dire status of the species in 40k, given that all of man is poised to be wiped from the face of existence at any point in time. And that is only via the mobilization of the entire population and militarization of every aspect of society that it sustains itself.

 

The Imperium encompasses the majority of humanity, but not the entirety. Furthermore, the Imperium falling would not mean the spontaneous death of every single human within it. Therefore survival of the human race as an absolute value would not justify Space Marines.

[Lexington]

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind

Is it, tho? I mean, Space Marines are fun and we all love them, but they’re hideously inefficient. For all the pomp and circumstance, there’s just too few Marines for them to actually be a necessary tool in the Imperial war machine.

[Volt]

 

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind, as the fate of annihilation is unacceptable. Its use merely shows the dire status of the species in 40k, given that all of man is poised to be wiped from the face of existence at any point in time. And that is only via the mobilization of the entire population and militarization of every aspect of society that it sustains itself.

The Imperium encompasses the majority of humanity, but not the entirety. Furthermore, the Imperium falling would not mean the spontaneous death of every single human within it. Therefore survival of the human race as an absolute value would not justify Space Marines.

 

Those pockets of humanity are irrelevant fodder that will be wiped from the board or be turned into some degenerated slave-race of Chaos should the Imperium fall, their existence is temporary. The only hope humanity has for survival is through the Emperor, as he is the only being that stands a chance of ending the Chaos Gods themselves. 

 

 

 

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind

Is it, tho? I mean, Space Marines are fun and we all love them, but they’re hideously inefficient. For all the pomp and circumstance, there’s just too few Marines for them to actually be a necessary tool in the Imperial war machine.

 

They're an incredibly efficient tool seeing as how only a thousand of them can smash entire armies and mere hundreds can bring entire planets back from rebellion. All inefficiencies with Space Marines are entirely to blame upon the bureaucracy, and not the technology itself. Although you could also conscript several trillion civilians and turn them into a massive Thallaxi army that would be equally fearsome in combat, albeit lacking flexibility.

 

But, without pointless bureaucracy, you could easily turn billions or even trillions of humans into Astartes. 

[momerathe]

It's very far from a given that all the terrible things that the imperium does to is citizens on a daily basis actually aid its survival in any meaningful fashion. It's more like the self-destructive flailings of a dying behemoth.

[Beren]

 

 

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind, as the fate of annihilation is unacceptable. Its use merely shows the dire status of the species in 40k, given that all of man is poised to be wiped from the face of existence at any point in time. And that is only via the mobilization of the entire population and militarization of every aspect of society that it sustains itself.

 

The Imperium encompasses the majority of humanity, but not the entirety. Furthermore, the Imperium falling would not mean the spontaneous death of every single human within it. Therefore survival of the human race as an absolute value would not justify Space Marines.

Those pockets of humanity are irrelevant fodder that will be wiped from the board or be turned into some degenerated slave-race of Chaos should the Imperium fall, their existence is temporary. The only hope humanity has for survival is through the Emperor, as he is the only being that stands a chance of ending the Chaos Gods themselves. 

 

 

 

If you consider planetary populations that have survived since the Dark Age of Technology temporary, then sure they're temporary. But then so is the Imperium. Likewise, given that humanity survived the Age of Strife I find it doubtful that every single planet in the Imperium immediately gets slaughtered if it falls.

 

Also, if the Emperor hadn't created Space Marines, chaos wouldn't have Chaos Space Marines and someone other than Abaddon would have to spend hundreds of years destroying Necron pylons. You can hardly justify turning children into hypno-indocrinated killing machines through pragmatism if half of them turn against you and you spend a thousand years failing to eliminate them as they help tear you apart.

[Stark]

Inherently immoral?!

DogWelder, I serve the Emperor, I know the Emperor, the Emperor is a friend of mine.

DogWelder, you're no Emperor! 

 

With respect to a future 40,000 year mentality, I would say it is not inherently immoral. 
The future is as the future does. 

[Lexington]

They're an incredibly efficient tool seeing as how only a thousand of them can smash entire armies and mere hundreds can bring entire planets back from rebellion.

While I know this is "true" in a canonical sense, the mechanics of the idea just don't work out. Planets are huge! Their populations are in the billions! Individual Astartes can both take and deliver incredible amounts of punishment, sure, but they're still pretty much man-sized. They can only cover so much ground and keep their eye on so many people at once. They're great for certain things as part of a larger army (they're Marines, after all, and would be very good at that part), but as a singular force for planetary invasion, Space Marines would only be slightly better than useless. Add that to the fact that they're famously choosy about which orders to follow, don't tend to coordinate well with other Imperial organizations and have a nasty habit of turning traitor, and you've got a force that is inarguably more trouble than it's worth.

[Volt]

 

 

 

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind, as the fate of annihilation is unacceptable. Its use merely shows the dire status of the species in 40k, given that all of man is poised to be wiped from the face of existence at any point in time. And that is only via the mobilization of the entire population and militarization of every aspect of society that it sustains itself.

The Imperium encompasses the majority of humanity, but not the entirety. Furthermore, the Imperium falling would not mean the spontaneous death of every single human within it. Therefore survival of the human race as an absolute value would not justify Space Marines.

Those pockets of humanity are irrelevant fodder that will be wiped from the board or be turned into some degenerated slave-race of Chaos should the Imperium fall, their existence is temporary. The only hope humanity has for survival is through the Emperor, as he is the only being that stands a chance of ending the Chaos Gods themselves. 

 

 

 

If you consider planetary populations that have survived since the Dark Age of Technology temporary, then sure they're temporary. But then so is the Imperium. Likewise, given that humanity survived the Age of Strife I find it doubtful that every single planet in the Imperium immediately gets slaughtered if it falls.

 

Also, if the Emperor hadn't created Space Marines, chaos wouldn't have Chaos Space Marines and someone other than Abaddon would have to spend hundreds of years destroying Necron pylons. You can hardly justify turning children into hypno-indocrinated killing machines through pragmatism if half of them turn against you and you spend a thousand years failing to eliminate them as they help tear you apart.

 

You need more than a handful of planets in order to preserve the species. The issue is that humanity will only be safe and able to persist when every single hostile alien race is extermianted, Chaos is smothered, and humanity is able to mantle the Emperor into a fully fledged warp god. Anything short of that will eventually result in the death of the species, or a fate worse than death. Also the Astartes had little to do with the Horus Heresy as well, as Chaos would have likely corrupted anything in order to bring the Emperor down as they can corrupt anything. Literally every single aspect of the Imperium is a potential weakness to be exploited by Chaos, and the only way to fight it is with faith. Which unfortunately is a mistake on the Emperor's part, as he bet on the wrong horse and thought that atheism would weaken Chaos, when in fact it did little to anything to injure the Gods. 

 

 

 

They're an incredibly efficient tool seeing as how only a thousand of them can smash entire armies and mere hundreds can bring entire planets back from rebellion.

While I know this is "true" in a canonical sense, the mechanics of the idea just don't work out. Planets are huge! Their populations are in the billions! Individual Astartes can both take and deliver incredible amounts of punishment, sure, but they're still pretty much man-sized. They can only cover so much ground and keep their eye on so many people at once. They're great for certain things as part of a larger army (they're Marines, after all, and would be very good at that part), but as a singular force for planetary invasion, Space Marines would only be slightly better than useless. Add that to the fact that they're famously choosy about which orders to follow, don't tend to coordinate well with other Imperial organizations and have a nasty habit of turning traitor, and you've got a force that is inarguably more trouble than it's worth.

 

Astartes can be at any point on a planet in the blink of an eye in the initial deployment, and have access to hypersonic aircraft able to deliver them anywhere on the planet within an hour or even less. Mobility isn't an issue for them at all due to their massive amount of resources. That and it's actually pretty easy to butcher several billion people in an industrial society, you just need to shut down the food and water to cull most of the population in a matter of weeks. Hive World rebels? Knock out all sources of power, distribution of food, and water purification to have the population either crying for surrender or simply dying off. It would actually be harder to knock out non-hive worlds, as they're less centralized and likely less polluted, allowing the population to live off the land instead of the planetary government's teat.

[Bryan Blaire]

Volt, where is the evidence from GW’s writings that shows that the Emperor has the capability to destroy the Chaos Gods?

 

If you can’t quote something directly written that shows that he has that ability per GW, then your argument concerning humanity’s only hope being the Emperor defeating Chaos is invalid.

 

And yes, you made the assertion, you must provide actual factual support showing that the assertion can be true, otherwise we all must assume that it’s just your head-canon.

 

You also invalidated your own argument, after all

Chaos would have likely corrupted anything in order to bring the Emperor down as they can corrupt anything

if Chaos can corrupt anything, then they can corrupt the Emperor - if the Emperor can be corrupted, then he can’t be the only and ultimate defeat to Chaos.

[Volt]

Volt, where is the evidence from GW’s writings that shows that the Emperor has the capability to destroy the Chaos Gods?

 

If you can’t quote something directly written that shows that he has that ability per GW, then your argument concerning humanity’s only hope being the Emperor defeating Chaos is invalid.

 

And yes, you made the assertion, you must provide actual factual support showing that the assertion can be true, otherwise we all must assume that it’s just your head-canon.

 

You also invalidated your own argument, after all

Chaos would have likely corrupted anything in order to bring the Emperor down as they can corrupt anything

if Chaos can corrupt anything, then they can corrupt the Emperor - if the Emperor can be corrupted, then he can’t be the only and ultimate defeat to Chaos.

 

We know what it takes to kill a Chaos God, and that's another warp god. Ynnead is prophesied to slay Slaanesh and just a shard of the full thing is capable of permanently killing Daemons like the Emperor. Unless humanity can cough up another anathema like the Emperor to be deified by millennia of worship, he's the only shot they've got. That and part of the Emperor's post-HH plan is simply to hold on long enough for mankind to reach its psychic apotheosis (which we know from demonstrated feats that mankind ascendant would be even more powerful than the Eldar psychically).

 

 

 

A time of endless night presses in and, eve here, the enemies of Mankind gather like eaters of carrion. Only the Emperor's foresight and preparations stand a chance of seeing humanity through such end times. . . Shrouded in billowing alchemical gases, connected by miles of wires and tubes, the Emperor understands and faces the dangers that threaten to engulf Mankind. Utterly cut off and alone, he has assumed the role preordained for him as guardian of humanity and protector of its metamorphosis. The Master of Mankind knows that he must survive, must live forever if necessaty, or until such a dme as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face from the Warp without him.

 

And that's the trick, the Emperor and his "holy" creations are the only thing that the warp can't touch outside of blanks like the Watchers. The Chaos Gods can corrupt everything from servitors to raw hydrogen, but they can't touch what's associated with the Emperor's light- the Legion of the Damned, Celestine, or those other weird "Imperial Daemons" that prowl the edge of the Eye of Terror. 

[Bryan Blaire]

Which Chaos God have we seen killed?

[Laughingman]

I once worked out the Imperial fists Legion recruit washout rate based on the evidence from Praetorian of Dorn and worked out that based on the original Inuit induction class. Roughly 2% of the aspirants survived to become space marines, the rest died or were turned into servitors based on the books description. Meaning to produce the 30,000 imperial fists Dorn demanded of the former legion master he had 1.5 to 3 million children turned into servitors of killed... Which means two things... One, John French does not understand statistics, or two Dorn had millions of children killed simply to uphold his extremely high standards for recruits.

[Brother Lunkhead]

@Laughingman - There's probably some truth on both counts. I think the bottom line is that a lot of little boys die to create a Astartes and the Space Marine Chapters. Is this immoral? Yes it is. But it's probably necessary too in the 40k universe. In war, quite often the choices you have are all immoral or evil on some level. Sometimes the heroes and villains or victory and defeat are separated by which immoral choice you make.

 

Are the Space Marines necessary to the Imperium of Man? I believe they are. If you believe that they are not, then their creation is an unacceptable immorality. Will the Space Marines ultimately save the empire? Probably not. But, neither will the Imperial Guard, the Sisters of Battle, the Inquisition, on and on and on. But all are vital in the fight for survival. All play a vital role. I think that's one of the things I love about this lore. There is not just one starship and its crew or one rag tag little band that is vital to save the day while everyone else is just cannon fodder. All are necessary, but none are vital.

 

Is the creation of Space Marines immoral? Probably. Is it necessary. Definitely 

[Laughingman]

The thing is, other Legions had reasonably low rejection rates, for example the Dark angels on Caliban under Luther had a 80%+  success rate among recruits, admittedly this could be after initial "pre-testing"  where a significant portion of aspirants probably washed out and ended up chapter serfs or were placed into the Imperial Army. So it was Dorn's choice to recruit in such a manner rather then a necessity. 

[Panzer]

Which Chaos God have we seen killed?

The Eldar gods that got eaten by Slaanesh?

[Bryan Blaire]

The Eldar gods that got eaten by Slaanesh?

were Chaos Gods?

 

We're seriously getting off track here - we are talking about whether it is immoral to create Space Marines. I'd love to discuss whether all "gods" are by nature automatically the same as the Chaos Gods (who may have very different rules and possibly came into being in very different ways), but it isn't really the subject of the thread and doesn't directly relate to the immorality question. I probably shouldn't have posed the question, but we could get into that rabbit hole elsewhere.

 

Honestly, it was a rhetorical question, because everyone that has been involved with the lore in any depth knows that we haven't actually witnessed the death of a Chaos God in any GW writings. Sure, there are prophecies, etc., but prophecies aren't always fulfilled the way people interpret for themselves they will be. Until we see one actually die, we the readers don't actually know it's possible, and unless GW has actually said in quotable text or with recorded sourceable audio (not something someone has heard in an interview or some muck) that the Emperor has the power to kill a Chaos God, then we don't know that he can, it's just an implication or interpretation, typically subject to point of view issues.

 

Also, to counter the "Emperor is humanity's only hope" concept, we have this line from the end of what was posted earlier:

A time of endless night presses in and, eve here, the enemies of Mankind gather like eaters of carrion. Only the Emperor's foresight and preparations stand a chance of seeing humanity through such end times. . . Shrouded in billowing alchemical gases, connected by miles of wires and tubes, the Emperor understands and faces the dangers that threaten to engulf Mankind. Utterly cut off and alone, he has assumed the role preordained for him as guardian of humanity and protector of its metamorphosis. The Master of Mankind knows that he must survive, must live forever if necessary, or until such a time as psychic humans have evolved sufficient strength to withstand the dangers they face from the Warp without him.

That sentence doesn't say "He saves humanity by being a total badass!", it says that he sticks around as a defender until humanity has the capability of defending itself, i.e. Humanity is ultimately its own savior, and it's own hope (you might actually say that it is the potential of humanity that is the Emperor's hope).

 

It's also as close to a PoV of the Emperor as we get as readers of the game setting lore, and it's from the PoV of a being that has already shown that his foresight is flawed, his choices on the best path forward are flawed, and it's entirely possible that his path was corrupted by the Chaos Gods before he even started the work on the Primarchs. Honestly, given the events in the Imperium under the beneficent guardianship of the Emperor, it's not a real ringing endorsement of him being the "only capable guardian shield of humanity." The Emperor himself could be why Humanity seems screwed...

 

We (the readers) also don't know what lies in the unknown - and it may have no bearing on anything at all - but it may be that elsewhere in the galaxy, humanity has a different protection and is also undergoing metamorphosis there as well. GW would actually have to tell us if that is the case though.

 

Much of that speaks nothing to whether the creation of Space Marines in 40K is moral or not.

[Panzer]

 

The Eldar gods that got eaten by Slaanesh?

were Chaos Gods?

We're seriously getting off track here - we are talking about whether it is immoral to create Space Marines. I'd love to discuss whether all "gods" are by nature automatically the same as the Chaos Gods (who may have very different rules and possibly came into being in very different ways), but it isn't really the subject of the thread and doesn't directly relate to the immorality question. I probably shouldn't have posed the question, but we could get into that rabbit hole elsewhere.

I'd say ultimately yes they are. However I agree this is going very offtopic.

[Beren]

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind, as the fate of annihilation is unacceptable. Its use merely shows the dire status of the species in 40k, given that all of man is poised to be wiped from the face of existence at any point in time. And that is only via the mobilization of the entire population and militarization of every aspect of society that it sustains itself.

The Imperium encompasses the majority of humanity, but not the entirety. Furthermore, the Imperium falling would not mean the spontaneous death of every single human within it. Therefore survival of the human race as an absolute value would not justify Space Marines.

Those pockets of humanity are irrelevant fodder that will be wiped from the board or be turned into some degenerated slave-race of Chaos should the Imperium fall, their existence is temporary. The only hope humanity has for survival is through the Emperor, as he is the only being that stands a chance of ending the Chaos Gods themselves.

 

If you consider planetary populations that have survived since the Dark Age of Technology temporary, then sure they're temporary. But then so is the Imperium. Likewise, given that humanity survived the Age of Strife I find it doubtful that every single planet in the Imperium immediately gets slaughtered if it falls.

Also, if the Emperor hadn't created Space Marines, chaos wouldn't have Chaos Space Marines and someone other than Abaddon would have to spend hundreds of years destroying Necron pylons. You can hardly justify turning children into hypno-indocrinated killing machines through pragmatism if half of them turn against you and you spend a thousand years failing to eliminate them as they help tear you apart.

You need more than a handful of planets in order to preserve the species. The issue is that humanity will only be safe and able to persist when every single hostile alien race is extermianted, Chaos is smothered, and humanity is able to mantle the Emperor into a fully fledged warp god. Anything short of that will eventually result in the death of the species, or a fate worse than death. Also the Astartes had little to do with the Horus Heresy as well, as Chaos would have likely corrupted anything in order to bring the Emperor down as they can corrupt anything. Literally every single aspect of the Imperium is a potential weakness to be exploited by Chaos, and the only way to fight it is with faith. Which unfortunately is a mistake on the Emperor's part, as he bet on the wrong horse and thought that atheism would weaken Chaos, when in fact it did little to anything to injure the Gods. 

 

 

 

Firstly, we're talking about a species that's spread across the entire galaxy. Amounting to a mere handful of planets is pretty difficult. Secondly, humanity has already spread across the galaxy from a single planet. Thirdly, the Eldar survived their cataclysm with a relative minority of their people alive. They may not be thriving, but they're certainly surviving.

 

In addition, you say that humanity will only be safe if "every single hostile alien race is exterminated". According to the Imperium of Man, every alien race is hostile even though that isn't correct. If our 'safety' requires the genocide of every single non-human race in the galaxy we're no better than any race that seeks the same goal.

 

Finally, the Horus Heresy wasn't a case of Chaos instantaneously corrupting half the Imperium. It may have been the primary reason for the Sons of Horus, Word Bearers and Emperor's Children but fore many it was politically motivated by reasons such as loyalty to Horus, disgruntlement with the Emperor or ambition. It was certainly the manipulations of Chaos that started it and corrupted the Traitors as the war drew on, but especially given that the World Eaters and Night Lords were on the verge of going rogue anyway you cannot say that the issue of Space Marines being disloyal was a matter of Chaos being able to corrupt everything.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

 

It's justified when that indoctrination is necessary to perpetuate the collective of mankind, as the fate of annihilation is unacceptable. Its use merely shows the dire status of the species in 40k, given that all of man is poised to be wiped from the face of existence at any point in time. And that is only via the mobilization of the entire population and militarization of every aspect of society that it sustains itself.

The Imperium encompasses the majority of humanity, but not the entirety. Furthermore, the Imperium falling would not mean the spontaneous death of every single human within it. Therefore survival of the human race as an absolute value would not justify Space Marines.

 

Those pockets of humanity are irrelevant fodder that will be wiped from the board or be turned into some degenerated slave-race of Chaos should the Imperium fall, their existence is temporary. The only hope humanity has for survival is through the Emperor, as he is the only being that stands a chance of ending the Chaos Gods themselves.

 

If you consider planetary populations that have survived since the Dark Age of Technology temporary, then sure they're temporary. But then so is the Imperium. Likewise, given that humanity survived the Age of Strife I find it doubtful that every single planet in the Imperium immediately gets slaughtered if it falls.

Also, if the Emperor hadn't created Space Marines, chaos wouldn't have Chaos Space Marines and someone other than Abaddon would have to spend hundreds of years destroying Necron pylons. You can hardly justify turning children into hypno-indocrinated killing machines through pragmatism if half of them turn against you and you spend a thousand years failing to eliminate them as they help tear you apart.

 

You need more than a handful of planets in order to preserve the species. The issue is that humanity will only be safe and able to persist when every single hostile alien race is extermianted, Chaos is smothered, and humanity is able to mantle the Emperor into a fully fledged warp god. Anything short of that will eventually result in the death of the species, or a fate worse than death. Also the Astartes had little to do with the Horus Heresy as well, as Chaos would have likely corrupted anything in order to bring the Emperor down as they can corrupt anything. Literally every single aspect of the Imperium is a potential weakness to be exploited by Chaos, and the only way to fight it is with faith. Which unfortunately is a mistake on the Emperor's part, as he bet on the wrong horse and thought that atheism would weaken Chaos, when in fact it did little to anything to injure the Gods.

 

Firstly, we're talking about a species that's spread across the entire galaxy. Amounting to a mere handful of planets is pretty difficult. Secondly, humanity has already spread across the galaxy from a single planet. Thirdly, the Eldar survived their cataclysm with a relative minority of their people alive. They may not be thriving, but they're certainly surviving.

 

In addition, you say that humanity will only be safe if "every single hostile alien race is exterminated". According to the Imperium of Man, every alien race is hostile even though that isn't correct. If our 'safety' requires the genocide of every single non-human race in the galaxy we're no better than any race that seeks the same goal.

 

Finally, the Horus Heresy wasn't a case of Chaos instantaneously corrupting half the Imperium. It may have been the primary reason for the Sons of Horus, Word Bearers and Emperor's Children but fore many it was politically motivated by reasons such as loyalty to Horus, disgruntlement with the Emperor or ambition. It was certainly the manipulations of Chaos that started it and corrupted the Traitors as the war drew on, but especially given that the World Eaters and Night Lords were on the verge of going rogue anyway you cannot say that the issue of Space Marines being disloyal was a matter of Chaos being able to corrupt everything.

 

 

However we're also talking about threats that simply consume EVERYTHING in a galaxy and leave only rocks without even atmosphere and threats which attack reality itself (the actual daemonic part of chaos rather than the many cults) and threats that have conquered the galaxy as well and are just now awaken once more with superior technology and who've enslaved what's basically gods of the material realm. Not to mention the ever present threat of Orks who just become stronger over time unless they face something that wipes them out completely so they have to start from scratch.

The difference between the past and now in the 40k universe is that in the past humanity didn't fear to advance their own technology beyond limits, however now that's unheard of.

 

Oh and of course the fact that humanity evolved into a very psi active race since then without proper control over it without strict training (and even then it's a risk) so they're basically their own worst enemy. Basically the main reason why the Emperor aimed to get control over the whole of humanity and eventually sever the warp from the marterium after he managed to create his own webway (or else they would've the same, or even worse, problem as the T'au which would make controlling a whole galaxy basically impossible).

[Beren]

True, if any of those three win everything else in the galaxy is screwed. But if the Imperium wins every other sentient species is just as screwed. Also, the tech problem is linked specifically to the Imperium and Ad Mech. Unless I'm severely misremembering there was a planet succesfully utilising Artificial Intelligences without them going rogue until the Word Bearers exterminated them.

[Calyptra]

Of course the Imperium claims it's justified and necessary. Literally every culture or organization in real life who recruits child soldiers or attempts genocide claimed it was justified and necessary.

 

Unless it's been retconned, potential marines are recruited at like 10 years old (the ossmodula and biscopea need to be implanted between the ages of 10 and 12). A child that young is not deemed capable of giving informed consent by modern society; I suspect there's research justifying that position, but I'm not up to researching that right now.

[Volt]

Of course the Imperium claims it's justified and necessary. Literally every culture or organization in real life who recruits child soldiers or attempts genocide claimed it was justified and necessary.

 

Unless it's been retconned, potential marines are recruited at like 10 years old (the ossmodula and biscopea need to be implanted between the ages of 10 and 12). A child that young is not deemed capable of giving informed consent by modern society; I suspect there's research justifying that position, but I'm not up to researching that right now.

Space Marines can be made anywhere from 8 years old to full adults in their 20's, age just determines the likelihood of success.