Panzer Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 I agree but there are plenty people who have problems remembering something like that if they aren't playing several times a week (and even then). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071207 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Killmer Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Yeah, only 3E, for all its problems, was still a lot better than what we have now Let me remind you how Terminators have been in 3rd edition: * Terminators were really expensive * Terminators had a 2+ armor save * Terminators had always attacked last * Assault Cannons had 3 shots and got destroyed if you hit 1's * Terminators got killed easily by powerweapons No I can't agree to you in this point. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danarc Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 My answer is: NO. :D About the new weapon skill method, it's easy and it fits with GW porpouse. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Yeah, only 3E, for all its problems, was still a lot better than what we have now Let me remind you how Terminators have been in 3rd edition: * Terminators were really expensive * Terminators had a 2+ armor save * Terminators had always attacked last * Assault Cannons had 3 shots and got destroyed if you hit 1's * Terminators got killed easily by powerweapons No I can't agree to you in this point. I meant the edition in general, not Terminators specifically. More specifically, it was a reply to this comment, which was directly above mine and didn't need a quote: Transition to 3E was a special time for the game. The entire game changed. Whole armies changed the way they played.. . . Sound familiar? Might want to read what I was replying to next time instead of assuming I'm talking about one thing in particular. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Lets keep it civil and constructive gentlemen. Corax wouldn't approve of squabbling within the ranks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x19 Parabellum Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 So it would appear that the consensus is hovering in the "Terminators are overcosted, and therefore in the 'low performing'" bracket of unit evaluation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 @ taikishi : my apologies if focusing on the one part of your post has caused a misunderstanding. I can see someone else possibly seeing it and take you out of context. Sincerely my bad. It was my intention merely to note how 8th edition for any flaw it has is possibly my favorite since I started in 2nd edition ... and I loved 3rd (and the start of 5th) immensely. :D this edition really has created a very different game in ways I’m just learning but still “feels” like 40k to me. 9x 19 pretty much sums it up :) and sadly it seems more things change more they seem the same for the old boys in the TDA. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted May 3, 2018 Share Posted May 3, 2018 Lets stay on topic guys, which is Terminators in 8th If there's other things you wish to discuss open a new thread or take it to PM's ;) :tu: Personally I believe they certainly have a place which is why I'm taking them to my next ITC Major event ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5071650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Captain Vyper Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Personally I believe they certainly have a place which is why I'm taking them to my next ITC Major event Id love to see this list edit: I see you posted it in your thread, nvm! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
duz_ Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Right here! ;)http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324644-duz-does-rg/?p=5071466 with revision comments here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/324644-duz-does-rg/?p=5071640 :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Bindoff Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Given how termies are ‘perennially overcosted’ in most peoples views I’ve come to conclude we’re all just using them wrong. The games designers must be basing the points and power level on *something*, right? I’ve had some success with taking 10: I find fewer and they tend to lose impact quickly. But other players don’t always know how to deal with a bigger unit and either fail to take it seriously, whereupon I find the weight of bolter shots impressive before pulling off a charge with a whole load of power fists, or else people put way too much effort into a counter which leaves everyone else free to manoeuvre and kill. Doesn’t always come up trumps but yes, it does work. It takes some getting used to, mind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 That’s a good line of thought. I see where your going with invest big or go home idea. If that is the right track, I do wish someone at White Dwarf would start a series on units with similar issues. Could lead to greater sales of a unit that has to be lagging in turn over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Given how termies are ‘perennially overcosted’ in most peoples views I’ve come to conclude we’re all just using them wrong. The games designers must be basing the points and power level on *something*, right? I’ve had some success with taking 10: I find fewer and they tend to lose impact quickly. But other players don’t always know how to deal with a bigger unit and either fail to take it seriously, whereupon I find the weight of bolter shots impressive before pulling off a charge with a whole load of power fists, or else people put way too much effort into a counter which leaves everyone else free to manoeuvre and kill. Doesn’t always come up trumps but yes, it does work. It takes some getting used to, mind. The flip side of that is the cost of a larger unit. A unit of 10 is 390 points if you don't take a heavy weapon and don't swap PF for CF. A unit of 6-10 is 24 power level. Fully decked out, the unit is 532 points (9 chain fists, cyclone missile launcher). You can get 2-3 squads at a potentially lower PL for the same cost of a unit of 10 no frills, and can almost get an entire Imperial Guard Brigade for 532 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Bindoff Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Yes that’s true Taikishi but again, how you use them is a big deal. If you play 10 termies like 3 tac squads they won’t be as good: but that’s not how you use them. Again with the guard, don’t put them in front of 500 flashlights, but do deep strike them , gun down a squad and assault some tank squad with those beautiful big hands Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 Right, I'm just saying that's one of the reasons Terminators aren't taken, and especially not in units that size. Why take 532 points in ten models when I can take 532 points of more effective models and/or more models? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Race Bannon Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 In all-comer lists, I totally agree. Yet, if you make lists tailored to the OpFor, then almost (almost) everything in the armory is workable. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Bindoff Posted May 4, 2018 Share Posted May 4, 2018 It’s also worth pointing out that 532 is a lot of points wasted in chainfists, but I take your point. You might not see them at tournaments but I think they’re viable in most situations if used properly. Coming soon; other unpopular opinions from the colonel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5072884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriade Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 Terminators problems have never been the alpha they do that just fine. The problem is the beta what ever they were fighting is either dead or just runs away and the terminators just get blasted. if i had to recommend a squad i wish capracatii had access to forge world heavy weapons still but they are quite capable of being sfts into a spot and holding that point down hard for around 250~ points for a 5 man squad. The real issue is though now if your talking a 10 man squad at around 500 points I could get 3 squads of 3 custodies and maybe a character and they are more then capable of doing more work then the terminators are. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5073097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Bindoff Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 So for 529 points we're looking at 10 TDA equipped first company sluggers, two with asscannons, plus a terminator chaplain to boost their fisting prowess from average 10 hits to average 15, not counting his own gilded priest stick. And that's 36 bolter shots at close range too: certainly not to be sniffed at. 3 squads of custodes plus a shied captain is more points but I'll grant you its probably better used as standard infantry. Deep striking is a big deal though; do it right and you restrict what can target them and hence increase survivability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5073302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 So for 529 points we're looking at 10 TDA equipped first company sluggers, two with asscannons, plus a terminator chaplain to boost their fisting prowess from average 10 hits to average 15, not counting his own gilded priest stick.Minor Maths correction:The Chaplain buff modifies the Fists (specifically, as the Sergeant has a Power Sword) from 9 hits (9*2) to 12 (11.97) as he does not give rerolls to any 3s rolled, since they would normally be hits and the -1 modifier is applied after rerolls occur. [18*0.5=9 -> 18*((0.33*0.5)+0.5[0.665])= 11.97] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5073761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 What might make Terminators worth it again? 2d6 armor save, pick the highest while keeping the 5++ vs 2+: 35/36 save vs 3+: 7/9 save vs 4+: 3/4 save vs 5: 5/9 save vs 6+: 11/36 (just under the 1/3 chance of a 5++) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5073968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Bindoff Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 What might make Terminators worth it again? 2d6 armor save, pick the highest while keeping the 5++ vs 2+: 35/36 save vs 3+: 7/9 save vs 4+: 3/4 save vs 5: 5/9 save vs 6+: 11/36 (just under the 1/3 chance of a 5++) Or just 2nd edition style 3+ on 2d6. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5074086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 Thought about using the 2nd Edition rules for terminators, but decided against it for several reasons: 1. First of all I can't think of any weapons that have a saving throw modifier of -5 or worse, so the most difficult save you are making is 7+ on 2d6 or 6+ rerollable on 1d6. You have a 58% chance of passing a 7+ save on two dice versus a 31% chance of passing a 6+ rerollable save on one die. 2. There are different variants of Terminator armor and the biggest difference between them that I can remember (mobile at the moment so can't look at books) is there invulnerable save. You would likely be removing their invulnerable save by going to 2d6 save. Even then, their armor save is almost always going to be better then taking an invulnerable since there are no -6 or worse save modifiers in 8th. 3. Speed of play. With two dice saves, you would have to make each save one at a time which slows the game down. With a rerollable save on one die, you can throw all of your saves at once then reroll the ones that need to be rerolled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5074116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
taikishi Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 Clarification since I'm mobile and can't edit my post. A 7+ on two dice is statistically better than a 4+ invulnerable while an 8+ save on two dice is better that a 5+ invulnerable save. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5074119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallas Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 Simplest way of replicating the 2d6 save would probably be just rerolling saves. It's not time consuming and doesn't require one to roll each save separately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346236-are-terminators-viable-in-an-8th-edition-rg-army/page/2/#findComment-5074192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.