Are Terminators viable in an 8th edition RG army?

[taikishi]

That's what I said :D

[Race Bannon]

Buuuut, this is about how to make their current iteration "viable".

 

^_^

[seriade]

To make them viable they need around a 10 point or so reduction.  They are the only real marine choice that your basically spending as much as the marine costs on weapons.

[Race Bannon]

WHICH is essentially wish-listing (and believe me, I agree) :P

 

What about as they exist within the current ruleset? It's ok if they are not viable at all.

 

But if they are, then how?

[Dracos]

Terminator Captain Thunder Hammer Storm Shield

Terminator Sgt TH & SS

6 Lightning Claw TDA

Land Raider Crusader

 

If I weren’t running Primaris this would be my centerpiece that rest of the army was designed around .... because I love Lightning Claws :D

[taikishi]

Buuuut, this is about how to make their current iteration "viable".

 

 

Wouldn't giving them a rerollable 2+ save make their current iteration viable? :3

[Panzer]

I guess infiltrating a big number of Terminators (especially in terrain) would be rather hard to shift for the opponent (but far from impossible) and put up enough pressure to enable you to deep strike other units turn 2 still as opposed to the opponent steamrolling most other infiltrating units and then occupying most of the board to deny deep strikes turn 2.

 

Buuuut, this is about how to make their current iteration "viable".

 

Wouldn't giving them a rerollable 2+ save make their current iteration viable? :3

 

 

He's talking about tactics, not about changes to rules or points.

[taikishi]

Terminator Captain Thunder Hammer Storm Shield

Terminator Sgt TH & SS

6 Lightning Claw TDA

Land Raider Crusader

 

If I weren’t running Primaris this would be my centerpiece that rest of the army was designed around .... because I love Lightning Claws

 

Sadly, I haven't liked Lightning Claws since 2nd Edition. Shred or not, I never agreed with their reduction to S4 in 3rd. Love the aesthetics, hate the rules.

 

Either way, that's 724 points tied up into that unit of terminators. I'd be a little concerned about the unit being tar pitted and likely to never benefit from the RG Chapter Tactic. I almost feel a unit entering through SftS is a better way to go. Maybe supported by a Warlord with a jump pack/the Raven's Fury so he can charge in and deny Overwatch, then they follow suit since they'll have to make, at most, a 5-6" charge

[Race Bannon]

Hey all,

 

Just getting back into the hobby, and looking to build an army of RG. I have stacks of Terminator models (both assault and shooty). Do they have any place in 8th ed. RG forces?

 

Yes, tactics and strategy, because the OP is asking how to make the Terminator squad work in the current edition as they currently exist.

 

We can make a new thread discussing changes that would make them better for the RG

[taikishi]

I guess infiltrating a big number of Terminators (especially in terrain) would be rather hard to shift for the opponent (but far from impossible) and put up enough pressure to enable you to deep strike other units turn 2 still as opposed to the opponent steamrolling most other infiltrating units and then occupying most of the board to deny deep strikes turn 2.

 

Buuuut, this is about how to make their current iteration "viable".

 

 

Wouldn't giving them a rerollable 2+ save make their current iteration viable? :3

 

 

He's talking about tactics, not about changes to rules or points.

 

Sadly, I think that's what it's going to take, especially in light of the new Tactical Reserve rules: a points change or a rules change (or both).

 

Raven Guard and Dark Angels are probably best able to get use out of Terminators between SftS and maybe a combination of Deathwing Assault/Weapons From the Dark Age on a combat squad of Deathwing Terminators with two plasma cannons (because you bought it as a 10-model squad) to fire out-of-turn, with the storm bolters fired at one target and the plasma cannons overcharging and firing at another with +1 damage plus Grim Resolve to re-roll those 1s on the overloading plasma cannons.

[mertbl]

Are cataphractii more viable than standard?

[taikishi]

Not really.

 

Pros

4++

Cheaper stock

Can take 2x heavy flamers in a unit of five

Can mix and match shooting and assault

 

Cons

No Thunder hammers

No other heavy weapons choices

Slower

Half distance rolled when advancing

 

 

If you're looking solely at close combat, a Terminator Assault squad is 199 points if the only thing you change is giving your Sergeant a TH/SS.

A Cataphractii squad with a Chainfist on the Sergeant and everyone else with Lightning Claws is 222 points. You lose 1D for -1 to your opponent's saves and everyone having a 4++

 

The drawback is it takes the Cataphractii longer to get anywhere and they cost more. Assuming both SftS:

 

Base Squad: needs a 4+ on the charge. Probability of rolling a 4+ on 2d6 -- 91.67%

Cataphractii: needs a 5+ on the charge. Probability of rolling a 5+ on 2d6 -- 83.33%

 

8.3% may not seem like a big deal, but the issue compounds if the squads manage to survive to later turns to charge things.

 

Probability of a 6+: 72.22 (-11.11%)

P(7+):  58.33 (-13.89%)

P(8+): 41.67 (-16.66%)

P(9+): 27.78 (-13.89%)

P(10+): 16.67 (-11.11%)

P(11+): 8.33 (-8.34%)

P(12): 2.78 (-5.55%)

 

That extra inch lost on movement can end up making a big difference. The one thing you can do that you can't do with a TAS is kit them with two Heavy Flamers so you can at least dish out 2d6 S5 -1 save hits before charging in (unit cost 228 pts if you give both Lightning Claws), though a smart opponent is going to take as many casualties from the front as he can to limit their ability to charge.

 

Unfortunately, they also don't make a better shooting unit that a regular Terminator Squad, either, because they have no heavy weapons outside of Heavy Flamers.

[ShinyRhino]

Had anyone looked at Teleport Homers yet?

My theory is that you can SftS a Tactical Terminator or Assault Terminator squad, have it do whatever it needs to early, then pop back to the Homer once the mission is complete or things go pear shaped.

Units and combat squads can use each other's Homers as well. So half a squad can SftS while the other deploys, then one or the other can use the Homer later on. Or you could take Homers for more than one unit, and have a single unit hop about more than once a game by using successive Homers in successive turns.

 

Also, Cataphractii Terminators can't take two heavy flamers in a five man squad. One per five, just like all the other TDA types.

[ShinyRhino]

IMO, Terminators suffer from what a lot of Maine units do...too many bolter shots. Marines never lack for volumes of anti infantry fire because almost every unit comes with a bolt weapon in multiples and only one or two slots for heavier weapons per unit.

 

I think we need to think of TDA as a Battle Line unit instead of a Fire Support or Close Assault unit. That would keep them using the RG Chapter Tactic for longer, in cover to preserve their high save, and near the cheaper bubble characters (Lieutenants, Apothecaries, etc) for maximum value on points spent. Let the other units like Aggressors, Vanguard, etc do the heavy hitting and the TDA holding the line.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Had anyone looked at Teleport Homers yet?

My theory is that you can SftS a Tactical Terminator or Assault Terminator squad, have it do whatever it needs to early, then pop back to the Homer once the mission is complete or things go pear shaped.

Units and combat squads can use each other's Homers as well. So half a squad can SftS while the other deploys, then one or the other can use the Homer later on. Or you could take Homers for more than one unit, and have a single unit hop about more than once a game by using successive Homers in successive turns.

 

Also, Cataphractii Terminators can't take two heavy flamers in a five man squad. One per five, just like all the other TDA types.

 

I had a similar thought as well in regards to Homers. I just came to the conclusion that other units can do similar roles nearly as well for significantly cheaper  (Scout Bikes are a good example of that quality/quantity of firepower coupled with mobility, for less than 1/3 the points).

 

It's an interesting thought though.

[Race Bannon]

IMO, Terminators suffer from what a lot of Maine units do...too many bolter shots. Marines never lack for volumes of anti infantry fire because almost every unit comes with a bolt weapon in multiples and only one or two slots for heavier weapons per unit.

I think we need to think of TDA as a Battle Line unit instead of a Fire Support or Close Assault unit. That would keep them using the RG Chapter Tactic for longer, in cover to preserve their high save, and near the cheaper bubble characters (Lieutenants, Apothecaries, etc) for maximum value on points spent. Let the other units like Aggressors, Vanguard, etc do the heavy hitting and the TDA holding the line.

Zomg this.

[deadangel101]

For basically the same price of 10 termies you can take 15 aggressors. That's an average of 280 shots if they fire twice.

Plus they have the same effectiveness in melee and nearly the same survivability. They can advance and fire without penalty. They can deploy via Strike from the Shadows. There is no comparison.

[Race Bannon]

Maybe.  15 models takes a lot of space :lol:

[ShinyRhino]

It's also flat out wrong.

 

Ten shooting TDA in a single squad runs 392 points.

Fifteen Aggressors in two squads of six and a squad of three runs 555 points (222 per six man, 111 for the three man).

 

You can get 10.59 Aggressors for the price of ten Terminators.

[taikishi]

Two squads each with an assault cannon is 424, 444 if you also give each squad one chainfist.

 

You can also do a configuration of three units of five aggressors each if you don't want to combat squad for whatever reason. Maybe to save two CP on SftS? The downside of that configuration is your PL increases from 30 to 36 for purposes of Tactical Reserves, though.

 

If I'm going to do 10 shooty terminators, though, I'm either:

a. going to take a squad of 10 and combat squad them so I only have to deal with one power sword and still take two assault cannons.

b. take two squads of Tartaros Terminators with Reaper Autocannons and either Plasma Blasters or Volkite Chargers on the Sergeants. Total points 446 if you don't swap out the power swords but 26 PL vs 24.

 

Also, volume of fire is still a thing, especially if the Aggressors don't move.

 

15 aggressors firing: 285 S4 shots (6 from boltstorm gauntlets, average 3.5 from fragstorm launchers, doubled)

10 Terminators firing within 24", no assault cannon: 20 S4 shots

10 Terminators firing inside 12", no assault cannont: 40 S4 shots

-with 2 Assault  cannons: 16/32 S4 shots, 12 S6 shots

-with 2 Reaper Autocannons (Tartaros): 16/32 S4 shots, 8 S7 shots

-with 2 reapers and 2 plasma blasters: 12/24 S4 shots, 12 S7 shots OR 8 S7 shots, 4 S8 shots

-with 2 reapers and 2 volkites: 12/24 S4 shots, 4 S5 shots, 8 S7 shots

 

 

Which boils down to do you want the versatility or do you want to hope your volume of fire just obliterates things?

[duz_]

Hrmm, I lost where this became a thread about point comparisons with Aggressors and how they're better than terminators and when this was a thread about playing with Terminators.

 

/nudge

[taikishi]

Sorry, but that is a conversation about terminators. It's another illustration why they're so bad and the points are better spent elsewhere :(

[Race Bannon]

Respectfully ... sort of.

 

The OP is asking if Terminators are viable for the Raven Guard.  To that end, an extension would be ... how?

 

If they are not, then the discussion is done. 

 

ALTHOUGH the topic can be explored in the Astartes forum as a general question/discussion ^_^

[ShinyRhino]

Terminators are worth using if you're willing to think outside the box.

As I've said before, they're a unit that doesn't match their fluff. They might teleport in and single handedly obliterate enemy armies in the fiction, but on the table they don't.

They are one of less than a handful of units in the codex that gets a 2+ armor save, and the only unit type that backs that up with an invulnerable save.

Terminators hold ground against advancing infantry while whittling down said infantry.

Raven Guard Terminators parked in terrain are tough to shift. -1 to hit them at range, with a cover bonus to mitigate the weapons that kill them fastest like lascannons and missiles. They get a 4+ save against lascannon fire while in cover!

 

It's my opinion that we Raven Guard players have made ourselves slaves to the SftS play. Everything we discuss here seems to be viewed through the Strike from the Shadows filter, and that's not a good thing in the long term. We do have other tools in the toolbox! Ones that won't cost us friends when we keep using them ad nauseum.

[taikishi]

Actually, the entire premise of the thread from the title and the first post is if they're viable or not. If you want to get into how they can potentially be viable or if they're not viable at all, unfortunately that includes "wish listing"  (which is apparently forbidden though I honestly don't understand why) and comparing them to other units within the army.

 

The one thing Terminators have going for them over Aggressors (outside of not being Primaris imo) is versatility, which is also what at least my post comparing them versus Aggressors shows - along with their ability to teleport onto the battlefield from Reserves and their ability to at least be transported in Storm Ravens and Land Raiders.

 

As for the -1 to hit, that comes at the cost of not being able to rapid fire storm bolters and paying for power fists you're not using, whereas a unit like Aggressors or even Heavy Bolter Devastators (to compare small arms volume fire units) get full use of their weaponry and still get a -1 to be hit in retaliatory fire.