Wow Sanguinary Guard ARE good!

[Blackcadian]

Alright, I admit it - even though quite a few of you reported good results with the Sanguinary Guard, even going as far as dropping the Death Company completely for them I just wasn’t convinced. I looked at the price and the 2 attacks and was like - how can they possibly work?

 

But, after reading yet another post, I think in the unit of the week thread I caved in and got myself another 5.

 

Well, I finally got to test drive them last Saturday vs Astra M and vs AdMech.

 

Vs AM it was a smaller game, just 1000 pts and I thought for sure my army would end up being way too elite, but I was hellbent on trying my new SG! Added Captain Smush, Mephiston, The Sanguinor, an Ancient with the banner and 3x5 scouts.

 

Opponent with 3x30 conscripts, 2 Russes and a Chimera with Flamer vets. And Valhalla chapter tactics. What the hell haha!

 

Overall in this game I went through about 170 bodies with what I had, and my plus 1 attack aura and unleash rage was used very poorly due to positioning. Mephiston was killed quickly after almost murdering a Russ in melee. I think 5 SG were left at the end of the game, they were SO durable! Never got to use the banner btw as the Ancient got shot by a Russ the turn he came down. So yeah, in the end my opponent just ran out of CPs to recycle his squads and once I was able to hit his Russes it was gg. Did I mention all SGs had power fists? Hitting the conscripts on 4s ugh

[Karhedron]

TLDR:

1. SG are great, durable, and 2 attacks aren’t bad

I have been hesitating for that exact reason but I have a squad going through the paintshop now so I hope to give them a chance soon. Who was your warlord? My impression is that these guys need to leverage their "Heirs of Azkellon" rule to be effective but reading your batreps suggests this is not the case?

 

2. Going first is still amazing

Yup. It is possible to win after going second but it is an uphill struggle.

 

 

3. Why does the Libby dread cost more than Mephiston? Will probably bring him instead next time.

Libby Dread has T7, more wounds, can pack a melta gun and does 3 Damage in CC rather than D3. Mephy is great, I regularly run him (partly due to having no Libby Dread) but I would not go so far as to say it is a no-brainer.

[Xerxus]

Yes, I think their advantage over DC lies in the fact that they can survive a light breeze whereas the DC tend to drop like flies. A good alpha strike is pointless if your opponent still gets to kill you efficiently in return.

 

I agree that Mephiston is a noticeably better deal than the Libby Dread, whoever gave that thing three attacks made a big mistake.

[Bremon]

You need to leverage their 2W/2+. 2 attacks is bad, and they desperately need +1 attack. They’ve done great things for me, but also crumpled like paper in a few scenarios where I didn’t get Unleash Rage off.

[Panzer]

Luckily we have enough ways to give them +1A. Their own rules and our psychic power. Also a Stratagem that lets them fight an additional time if needed. Plasma is still a problem tho. Sure they have a 5+ save against it, but the additional wound doesn't really matter due the multi-damage profile.

Things change a lot with the relic banner nearby tho.

[Blackcadian]

@Karhedronuk

 

Sorry, the quote function doesn't seem to work for some reason, and neither does copy paste -.- :cussty old browser is annoying.

 

Anway, yes, you read that correctly - I almost completely failed to provide any buff for the SGuard, even though I really wanted to and that was the plan. But as they say, plans are the first casualties in a battle, and that was the case here, too.

 

In game 1 I deployed my warlord on my left flank to Forlorn Fury up the board into total cover from the Russes. At the same time the Russes were in the left corner, so I knew that's where I had to get the rest of my hard hitters to. Which in turn meant that not until the last game turn did they actually link back up with him to get the re-rolls. Also they only had the +1 A cast on them once, Mephy died to early. And the +1 A aura from the Sanguinor was out of range until last turn, too, as I needed him to take down the Russ that Mephy had almost killed before.

 

So, a perfect storm of non-synergy haha!

 

And it was pretty much the same in Game 2. I deep struck them all together and in range of everything, but had to relocate them with Wings of Fire due to the Kastellans and Destroyers coming down so far away. So again, no buffs.

 

And they STILL did really well! And I wouldn't say my opponents had bad lists.

[Arkaniss]

Glad you enjoyed fielding the golden boys! :) Your Sanguinary Guard will perform even better if you get them to befriend the Sanguinor (as Warlord) and a Librarian with Unleash Rage (and Shield of Sanguinius is my preference). I ran 10 SG in my last game backed up by them along with an Ancient with the Standard of Sacrifice, a Sanguinary Novitiate and a Lieutenant... it was expensive but brutal. I lost only one SG and they demolished everything they came into contact with.

 

2 Attacks isn't great by default, but when you add support characters they quickly become amazing. It is expensive in points and while they carried the day for me (the rest of my army was underperforming badly) it is putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak. My opponent didn't realise the threat until too late and the rest of my gaming group were eyeing them up after that so I think it might have been a one trick pony

[Palwatch]

Their crazy PL jump - 8 for 4 to 20 for 5+ is a bit of a hit under the BETA, but I ran them using OWOF thsi weekend and they smashed up an Avatar of Kaine. Which made me smile

[Diagramdude]

If you run them with power fists, they are essentially terminators with jump packs for 35 points per model. They have no invuln but they have to get hit with AP -4 to really miss a 5++. And luckily they are quite reasonably priced for a 5 man box. I almost want to run two 10-man squads of them. I've been impressed with the single 8 man squad I run. 

[BrotherAetherick]

If you run them with power fists, they are essentially terminators with jump packs for 35 points per model. They have no invuln but they have to get hit with AP -4 to really miss a 5++. And luckily they are quite reasonably priced for a 5 man box. I almost want to run two 10-man squads of them. I've been impressed with the single 8 man squad I run. 

 

Do you run them with all fists? I really do think they perform better against most things you want to charge them into, it's just that swords look so much cooler.

[Arkaniss]

Swords do indeed look cool and they do hit easier than a PF. With -3AP and dealing D3 Wounds I'm a big fan of the Encarmine Sword, I find they perform solidly but you are reliant on the +1 to Wound in the first round of combat against the big targets.

[Bremon]

The only value in swords for me lies in “Vengeance for Sanguinius”. Fists all the way otherwise. I do have 4 minis with swords. I might get a 4th both so I can do 8 fists and 8 swords. I just wish they were “encarmine fists” that were fist-shaped thunder hammers lol.

[Buggane]

Glad you enjoyed fielding the golden boys! Your Sanguinary Guard will perform even better if you get them to befriend the Sanguinor (as Warlord) and a Librarian with Unleash Rage (and Shield of Sanguinius is my preference). I ran 10 SG in my last game backed up by them along with an Ancient with the Standard of Sacrifice, a Sanguinary Novitiate and a Lieutenant... it was expensive but brutal. I lost only one SG and they demolished everything they came into contact with.

 

 

This sounds so much fun! Were they the only assault units you ran (Along with characters?)

[Arkaniss]

Pretty much - Sanguinary Guard and their support characters were the only 'real' CC I had. I mean I had two 5 man Scout squads but they were there to fill out Troop slots in a Battalion

 

The Sanguinary Guard and friends totalled nearly 1/2 my 2000pt list however... worth it though as the golden horde of death won me the game. Sadly I don't think I'll be as successful in future, as I mentioned previously my group has very clearly seen the danger now. I'll run them again though, it was just an epic sight and satisfying to see a golden swarm on the table.

 

Need to get another box of them so I can make an Ancient, and probably a couple more Power Fist and sword ones too :D

[Buggane]

Isn't the (impending) BA assault always fairly obvious? Or is that because you only had one unit and it relies on its supporting characters so much

[Diagramdude]

Personally I like power fists for the Sanguinary Guard because it costs the same points as a sword but wounds so much better. Yes you sacrifice -1 to hit, but often gain +1 or +2 to wound. Because causing a successful wound requires both a Hit and Wound roll, I think the fists come out on top when I rely on the Sanguinary Guard to be my hammer unit taking on targets often in the T5 to T8 range.

 

Consider the To Wound chart comparison below:

 

Fist (Str 8)

T 2   3   4   5   6   7   8 

   2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 2+ 3+ 

 

Sword (Str 4)

T 2   3   4   5   6   7   8 

   2+ 2+ 3+ 4+ 4+ 4+ 5+ 

 

I really enjoy wounding on 2s, especially when they run around with the Sanguinary Ancient letting them reroll 1's to wound. It basically ensures that the hits you do score will convert to wounds, which makes the 4+ To Hit roll the only hurdle to get over. This helps when deciding whether to commit a CP reroll. You can spend the reroll on trying to convert another hit roll because you are confident that if you do stick that 4+, it will probably convert into another successful wound. 

[Bremon]

But hitting on 4s is mediocre, it makes 3s dead rolls when you take their Heirs rerolls into account, and it ensures you’ll never benefit from Vengeance for Sanguinius. There are pros and cons; fists are only mathematically better against T5 and above. T4 they’re the same, T3 fists are worse.

 

On another note, I would almost never commit a CP reroll to a 4+ roll, especially to hit rather than a crucial invulnerable.

 

I used 2 squads of SG tonight in tandem with a relic banner ancient, captain and lieutenant. I lost 3 SG all game. 6 fists with 2 inferno pistols cracked some tough nuts, and the other squad with 6 swords put in work: Unleash Rage combined with VfS had them achieve 21 hits on some Blightlords.

 

Their trail of devastation included a Plague Marine melee squad, blightlord terminators, some plaguebearers, a Blight drone, a plagueburst crawler, a malignant plaguecaster and a warlord Daemon Prince with Suppurating Plate. The relic banner made that Death Star practically invincible.

[Buggane]

I used 2 squads of SG tonight in tandem with a relic banner ancient, captain and lieutenant. I lost 3 SG all game. 6 fists with 2 inferno pistols cracked some tough nuts, and the other squad with 6 swords put in work: Unleash Rage combined with VfS had them achieve 21 hits on some Blightlords.

What did the rest of your list look like? VfS?

[Karhedron]

I used 2 squads of SG tonight in tandem with a relic banner ancient, captain and lieutenant. I lost 3 SG all game. 6 fists with 2 inferno pistols cracked some tough nuts, and the other squad with 6 swords put in work: Unleash Rage combined with VfS had them achieve 21 hits on some Blightlords.

 

Who was your Warlord? Running multiple squads of SG always seemed a risky move to me as it would be very hard to keep both in range for Heirs of Azkellon. Having said that, those results are impressive. I have fought DG recently and I know it is a tough matchup to force enough damage through their stacked saves.

[Arkaniss]

Isn't the (impending) BA assault always fairly obvious? Or is that because you only had one unit and it relies on its supporting characters so much

Indeed, but in this case I deepstruck the Sanguinary Guard to join my characters already on the table. So a collection of characters on a flank didn't look too threatening and when the Sanguinary Guard turned up my opponent thought his existing units there could deal with them. It's only when they annihilated the surrounding forces and the Mawloc sent to reinforce them that he realised (too late of course) they were the major threat. Like I said, it will be difficult to be as effective again as I doubt any of my gaming group will underestimate that combo now!

 

Who was your Warlord? Running multiple squads of SG always seemed a risky move to me as it would be very hard to keep both in range for Heirs of Azkellon. Having said that, those results are impressive. I have fought DG recently and I know it is a tough matchup to force enough damage through their stacked saves.

Yeah I tried running smaller squads of Sanguinary Guard and always struggled to keep them both near my Warlord and still be effective. I just field one larger unit of them now and try to mitigate them being focus fired by keeping them in reserve.

 

So I've seen mention of Inferno Pistols, how effective have people found them on Sanguinary Guard? I'm toying with making a couple when I get round to buying another box.

[Karhedron]

So I've seen mention of Inferno Pistols, how effective have people found them on Sanguinary Guard? I'm toying with making a couple when I get round to buying another box.

My concern with inferno pistols is the cost versus the relatively few occasions where you can expect to fire it. If you enter play from Reserves, they will be out of range, thus no chance of shooting one target and then charging another. Given the high damage output of the SG, it also means you will struggle to shoot in close combat. Most opponents will either die or withdraw in their movement phase. There are few units that would willingly remain in combat with SG.

 

If you want to boost the shooting potential of the SG, perhaps a case could be made for plasma pistols. These can be overcharged at minimal risk if you are near the Warlord and can also be fired on the turn SG arrive from Reserve.

 

However, this is all theory-crafting as I have not tested them myself.

[Bremon]

 

I used 2 squads of SG tonight in tandem with a relic banner ancient, captain and lieutenant. I lost 3 SG all game. 6 fists with 2 inferno pistols cracked some tough nuts, and the other squad with 6 swords put in work: Unleash Rage combined with VfS had them achieve 21 hits on some Blightlords.

What did the rest of your list look like? VfS?

It was 1500 points, so the rest of the list was a lieutenant, two Razorbacks with assault cannons, one with lascannons, three tac squads with missile launcher and stormbolter. VfS: Vengeance for Sanguinius stratagem.

 

 

 

I used 2 squads of SG tonight in tandem with a relic banner ancient, captain and lieutenant. I lost 3 SG all game. 6 fists with 2 inferno pistols cracked some tough nuts, and the other squad with 6 swords put in work: Unleash Rage combined with VfS had them achieve 21 hits on some Blightlords.

Who was your Warlord? Running multiple squads of SG always seemed a risky move to me as it would be very hard to keep both in range for Heirs of Azkellon. Having said that, those results are impressive. I have fought DG recently and I know it is a tough matchup to force enough damage through their stacked saves.

Warlord was the Captain, I saved a CP by not giving him Death Visions, so he was able to benefit from the 5+++ as well, and this was the first time I’ve given him a storm shield.

 

 

 

Isn't the (impending) BA assault always fairly obvious? Or is that because you only had one unit and it relies on its supporting characters so much

Indeed, but in this case I deepstruck the Sanguinary Guard to join my characters already on the table. So a collection of characters on a flank didn't look too threatening and when the Sanguinary Guard turned up my opponent thought his existing units there could deal with them. It's only when they annihilated the surrounding forces and the Mawloc sent to reinforce them that he realised (too late of course) they were the major threat. Like I said, it will be difficult to be as effective again as I doubt any of my gaming group will underestimate that combo now!

Who was your Warlord? Running multiple squads of SG always seemed a risky move to me as it would be very hard to keep both in range for Heirs of Azkellon. Having said that, those results are impressive. I have fought DG recently and I know it is a tough matchup to force enough damage through their stacked saves.

Yeah I tried running smaller squads of Sanguinary Guard and always struggled to keep them both near my Warlord and still be effective. I just field one larger unit of them now and try to mitigate them being focus fired by keeping them in reserve.

 

So I've seen mention of Inferno Pistols, how effective have people found them on Sanguinary Guard? I'm toying with making a couple when I get round to buying another box.

This was the first time I used inferno pistols; I started the SG in reserve, then first turn deep strike into some ruins that were at the point in my deployment zone closest to the middle (15” in on that long board edge V shaped map type). The 2 inferno pistols (on the fist squad) were able to shoot 3 times this game; second turn into a bloat drone, third turn into the plague caster and fourth turn into the tank. They were always close enough for melta rolls.

 

 

So I've seen mention of Inferno Pistols, how effective have people found them on Sanguinary Guard? I'm toying with making a couple when I get round to buying another box.

My concern with inferno pistols is the cost versus the relatively few occasions where you can expect to fire it. If you enter play from Reserves, they will be out of range, thus no chance of shooting one target and then charging another. Given the high damage output of the SG, it also means you will struggle to shoot in close combat. Most opponents will either die or withdraw in their movement phase. There are few units that would willingly remain in combat with SG.

 

If you want to boost the shooting potential of the SG, perhaps a case could be made for plasma pistols. These can be overcharged at minimal risk if you are near the Warlord and can also be fired on the turn SG arrive from Reserve.

 

However, this is all theory-crafting as I have not tested them myself.

On a squad that’s made for hunting heavies (with fists) inferno pistols made sense to me this game. I only took them because I figured the 5+++ banner would keep them around long enough to pop some shots, then the warlord captain and lieutenant made the most of their hitting and wounding. I haven’t taken plasma on them before, and not sure I will. Certainly wouldn’t overcharge, 1s rerolling into 1s happens far too frequently on our tables and I prefer when it’s my enemy losing cooked models and not me lol.

[Indefragable]

I think a lot of people get fixated on inferno pistols on the drop. That's simply impossible due to the game restrictions. Where they excel is once lines have been smashed together: once your units are starting to get mixed into theirs and such, then inferno pistols really start to shine. Like all things, you can't just take a single one and expect miracles. You need a certain #. I put them on Captain, LT, Libby (if I bring one), 1-2 in SG, ASM have 1-2 of them, etc... Last game an ASM squad took 8 HP off a baneblade with 2 infernos.

[Arkaniss]

If you want to boost the shooting potential of the SG, perhaps a case could be made for plasma pistols. These can be overcharged at minimal risk if you are near the Warlord and can also be fired on the turn SG arrive from Reserve.

I used to overcharge my Sanguinary Guard Plasma Pistols when near my Captain... I have rolled so many 1's then another 1. It's put me off doing it for the time being

 

Until I actually get a third box I don't need to make a choice yet, but when using Inferno Pistols elsewhere I've found them either rubbish or they get off one or two amazing shots that make a big difference. I'll try and keep a rough tally of how often my Sanguinary Guard end up in a position to fire an Inferno Pistol in future games and guesstimate the usefulness of them later

 

 

 

[Indefragable]

I really like SG with plasma....but even as someone who tries to fit 10 plasma SG in every list...even I can't always justify the cost. SG are a big enough target that you have to give them the SoS and a SP to keep them alive (IMO), so spending an extra 4pts/model just hurts that much more.