Brainstorming - how to encourage Max Units over Min Units?

[Wargamer]

It struck me while watching the FAQ live video that the changes, while possibly encouraging mono-faction lists, don't fix another glaring issue - that the game actively punishes large units. A force containing 3x 10 Man Tacs and 2 HQs gets +3 CP (+5 now), but for a relatively small cost increase you could instead bring 6x 5 Man Tacs and 4 HQs to get double the CP.

 

IMPORTANT NOTE HERE! This is not just about Space Marines - I just used Space Marines as the example because this is an Astartes-centric site.

 

So, I thought it'd be nice to try and brainstorm a solution that encourages bringing max-sized squads where it may otherwise be more rewarding to bring min squads.

 

My initial thought was that a max-sized unit counts as 2 for the purposes of meeting chart requirements. This only applies to units with varying sizes, so bringing a 10-man Guard squad doesn't grant any bonuses, but bringing a 10-man Tac does.

 

An alternative is that each maxed size unit filling a compulsory slot gives +1 CP. Again, same caveat as above applies.

 

So an example: 3x 5 man Tacs and 2 Lieutenants generates +5 CP. However, bringing 3x 10 Man Tacs and 4 Lieutenants generates +10 CP as all five choices are maxed out.

 

What do you think a good fix for htis might be?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Only allow one battalion or brigade detachment per army. That will remove the desire for spamming MSU for extra CPs. To actually encourage max units, though, I think the +1 CP is the easiest solution.

[Halandaar]

I don't know if it needs to be a game-wide thing though. For Astartes Fores there is a degree of sense because it ties in with the background, so how about making it a specific rule in the Codex, similar how Raiding Party in the Drukhari book gives you bonuses for building in a specific way?

 

 

BATTLE COMPANIES

• If your army is Battle-Forged, any Batallion detachment which includes 10-strong squads as it's compulsory Troops choices gains an extra 2 CP
• If your army is Battle-Forged, any Brigade detachment which includes 10-strong squads as it's compulsory Troops choices gains an extra 6 CP

 

Reasoning; taking a single Battle Company (brigade) gives you a bigger bonus than taking two Demi Companies (Batallions)

[Mileposter]

Only allow one battalion or brigade detachment per army. That will remove the desire for spamming MSU for extra CPs. To actually encourage max units, though, I think the +1 CP is the easiest solution.

Their proposed rule about only having one of each Detachment in a Battleforged Army does this, doesn't it?

[Kinstryfe]

I've proposed it before and it hasn't always been popular, but I really think the detachment system is an excellent start, but that the one size fits all detachment system just doesn't work when two armies of equivalent points can range from around 10-300 models. They could fix a lot of the issues stemming from Detachments by just getting more specific per army. Either add in bonuses for complete units (ex, if a detachment contains 3 Tactical Squads if 10 models, gain +2 CP), or coming out with Detachments specific to armies that call for unit sizes as part of it.

[Mileposter]

I've proposed it before and it hasn't always been popular, but I really think the detachment system is an excellent start, but that the one size fits all detachment system just doesn't work when two armies of equivalent points can range from around 10-300 models. They could fix a lot of the issues stemming from Detachments by just getting more specific per army. Either add in bonuses for complete units (ex, if a detachment contains 3 Tactical Squads if 10 models, gain +2 CP), or coming out with Detachments specific to armies that call for unit sizes as part of it.

I think this causes far more problems than it solves. Just it existing would increase the balancing metrics ten-fold with a number of new places that require balancing against the other codices and such.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Only allow one battalion or brigade detachment per army. That will remove the desire for spamming MSU for extra CPs. To actually encourage max units, though, I think the +1 CP is the easiest solution.

Their proposed rule about only having one of each Detachment in a Battleforged Army does this, doesn't it?

I missed that line.

[MARK0SIAN]

One that would need solving, particularly for elite armies is larger squads would need better insurance against morale. Something like:

 

A squad that contained the maximum number of models at the start of the game does not have to take a morale test until it has lost X% (rounding up) of its starting number of models.

 

On the face of it, it sounds great for hordes too but actually, most horde armies have great ways to completely ignore morale whereas it’s actually a bigger threat to armies that shouldn’t really suffer from it.

[ERJAK]

Only allow one battalion or brigade detachment per army. That will remove the desire for spamming MSU for extra CPs. To actually encourage max units, though, I think the +1 CP is the easiest solution.

What army needed multiple battalions to run MSU? What army besides guard even CAN run multiple brigades?

[ERJAK]

You want peole to take max sized units? Here's how you do it:

 

First you need a tough, powerful, fast unit where additional bodies aren't just ablative wounds for special weapons. They need to each hit hard in their own right.

 

Then you need some kind of defensive buff, maybe something like 'you only hit me on 6s' or 'reroll all saves' or '4+ FNP and only take 1 damage max per weapon'. Some offensive buffs like +2 strength would help too.

 

The buffs would be coming from characters though, and while the shooting protection is nice, they'd be too vital to the max unit for that to be enough. Maybe if there was some way to hide them INSIDE the unit!

 

They could even share there special rules and...! I just made deathstars didn't I?

 

The only time maxed out unit have ever been successful in 40k has been in deathstars, or thing like artillery squadrons. I don't know that that could be changed without core fundamental changes to the way most armies work.

[UnkyHamHam]

I don't know if it needs to be a game-wide thing though. For Astartes Fores there is a degree of sense because it ties in with the background, so how about making it a specific rule in the Codex, similar how Raiding Party in the Drukhari book gives you bonuses for building in a specific way?

 

 

BATTLE COMPANIES

• If your army is Battle-Forged, any Batallion detachment which includes 10-strong squads as it's compulsory Troops choices gains an extra 2 CP
• If your army is Battle-Forged, any Brigade detachment which includes 10-strong squads as it's compulsory Troops choices gains an extra 6 CP

Reasoning; taking a single Battle Company (brigade) gives you a bigger bonus than taking two Demi Companies (Batallions)

I agree here that this is less of a game wide issue and more of an Astartes issue. And we all know the usual offenders like Tactical and Assault marines to compound on their usual issues.

 

One thing me and a buddy have been testing is giving Tactical and Intercessor Squads a new version of the rule Objective Secured. Not the same as Defenders of Humanity. Just borrowing the old rule name and recycling it.

 

Tactical and Intercessor Squads which finish your turn on an objective, generate 1 CP that is added to your pool. If the unit numbers 10 models, generate D3 CPs.

 

This gives real value back to the line troops and rewards 10 man units. Can increase value of transports too, to keep the squad intact to hop out and grab those points.

 

Still in early testing tho.

[Melete]

Stratagems or powers that encourage big units is an important one. One example is Eldar psychic powers like Guide and Word of the Phoenix. It's way better to shoot a buffed up 20 man Guardian unit than a buffed up 10 man Guardian unit. Another is Veterans of the Long War, which rely shines with 30 Cultists rapid firing.

[Laughingman]

Idea to promote 10 man Primaris intercessors squads:

 

We are fury: 1CP stratagem that contingent on a unit starting with 10 Intercessors, currently has more then five intercessors, that doubles the weapons shot characteristic for a shooting phase but requires a unit to stand still for that turn... AKA fury of the legion for the M42 millennium....

[Emicus]

Make big units ppm cheaper than small units. Worked in AoS :)

 

100 for 5. 175 for 10. Dang hard to pass up.

[Lord_Caerolion]

AoS doesn't have to worry as much about things like transport sizes, where it can be required to only have 9 guys rather than 10 if you want a Captain to fit alongside a squad in that Rhino. Unless they do things like a certain cost for the base squad size, then reduced costs for each additional model.

[Ficinus]

AoS doesn't have to worry as much about things like transport sizes, where it can be required to only have 9 guys rather than 10 if you want a Captain to fit alongside a squad in that Rhino. Unless they do things like a certain cost for the base squad size, then reduced costs for each additional model.

The same general model works for 30k, where a Squad of 10 models costs 12X points and each model after that costs X more points (or a squad of 5 costs 7X and additional models cost X).

[Deathwalker]

 

 

Only allow one battalion or brigade detachment per army. That will remove the desire for spamming MSU for extra CPs. To actually encourage max units, though, I think the +1 CP is the easiest solution.

Their proposed rule about only having one of each Detachment in a Battleforged Army does this, doesn't it?

I missed that line.

 

It doesn't exist, its a tournament level restriction that the FAQ mentions, but does not rule on.

[ERJAK]

Make big units ppm cheaper than small units. Worked in AoS

 

100 for 5. 175 for 10. Dang hard to pass up.

It *kind of* works for AoS due to combat being more prevalent, shooting being much rarer and shorter ranged, units being much larger, alternating close combat activations, built in army by army battleshock immunity, and a whole host of other factors that have more to do with army design than rules design.

 

The changes suggested here aren't enough. a 25pt discount on a terrible unit doesn't make it good. The bonuses to CP are irrelevant with battalion changes and are too conservative.

 

If you want people to actually take 10 man tac squads and be able to win you have to go for broke. Take the battalion example above, 2CP is irrelevant to double battalion, 6cp is even moreso for brigades. If you wanted that same system to work I would say 10CP and 25CP and add that you can now use the same strategem 2 times per phase. That's how badly you're gimping yourself by bringing 10man tac squads.

 

If you wanted to go with point reductions I would say 65pts for 5 and 85pts for 10.

 

For other armies you might not have to be as extreme but the big problem with larger units is that, unless you have an extremely powerful unit benefiting from extremely powerful buffs(like dark reapers) taking more models in a unit actually makes it worse in most cases. A ten man tactical squad is actually less effective than a 5 man squad at the same job. If it wasn't for how it scales when you apply it to an entire army, I'd almost want 10 man squads to be cheaper than 5mans.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Quit being ridiculous. 10 men less effective than 5? Pure fantasy. The only issue you face with full squads is you're now not magically immune to morale. But you have more firepower, more endurance, and more warm bodies to sacrifice to keep your big guns alive and shooting.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

A truly heretical take.

 

Bring back the old Morale system, and remove Command Points and stratagems (those stratagems that used to be USRs or unit special rules get put back whence they came). Might also want to bring back the old AP system.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A truly heretical take.

 

Bring back the old Morale system, and remove Command Points and stratagems (those stratagems that used to be USRs or unit special rules get put back whence they came). Might also want to bring back the old AP system.

 

So....5th Edition Redux? I'm okay with that.

[Chaplain Killmer]

5th Edition did suffer from the same problem Ferrum - even in the early days of the 3rd there was a min max discussion about that. Somehow here on the B&C there was a hard core that was always promoting max squads - seems that is still alive.

 

Basically I really don't see the Problem with the 5-6 man squads. It always depends on what you get to have this low headcount equalized and that can be tricky.

[Kinstryfe]

I think maybe the best option would be to figure out something in the unit's rules on a case by case basis, because I don't think that every unit out there runs into this problem equally. Let tac squads combat squad for free at the start of any turn as long as they have 6+ models left. Heck let them split into combat squads while in combat so one or two Marines can stay to heroically die while the rest get away. Give them other benefits to morale while they have enough models. Something to make a 10 man squad better than a 5 man squad under certain useful circumstances. This way people aren't penalized just for the sake of flavor, but also aren't rewarded excessively for minmaxing. Look at other units used in a similar way across other armies and see what makes sense. It would require it to be a part of the rules design going forward, but it may be able to balance it enough that there are perks to going either way.

[Beams]

A truly heretical take.

 

Bring back the old Morale system, and remove Command Points and stratagems (those stratagems that used to be USRs or unit special rules get put back whence they came). Might also want to bring back the old AP system.

Please don't! I can now use Max sized Battle Sisters/Dominions/Rets were before I'd lose 2-3 models and spend the rest of the game watching them run off the board. At least now I only lose 1-3 models instead of a whole squad.

[chapter master 454]

People are beating around a similar idea but aren't really taking note of it. You need to reward players for taking 10 man squads or make it mandatory.

 

In the first case, you reward the player by opening up all options to them. Prior at a five man, you had little in the way of choice or weapons. Maybe even grant them a special rule to give them benefits, fitting of a tactical/assault/devastator. For devastators it really is daft how I would wager most players don't even know you could take a 10 man devastator squad. What would be the benefits? This is what I would address with full 10 man squads.

 

In order of the progression of a marine, these would be some ideas:

For Devastators

"Support your Brothers!": If a unit of devastators start the game with 10 marines in the squad, the unit gains this special rule. When a heavy weapon is nominated to fire, another marine equipped with a boltgun may chose to help the devastator bring their weapon to bear more effectively. If a marine with a boltgun does this, he cannot fire however as he is spotting for the heavy weapon, that weapon now may re-roll 1 failed to-hit roll and 1 to-wound roll.

"Signum Support": If the sergeant of the squad is alive, he may use his signum instead of shooting this turn. Improve the AP of all heavy weapons in his squad by 1 (AP1 becomes AP2 and so on). 

These rules would drive home the idea of devastators having some serious firepower and even adds a bit of nice fluff as marines now support the other, while I say spotting it could be explained as fellow marines ether firing upon the same target to hold it in place or maybe using their optics to observe the target and note weaknesses.

 

For Assaults

"Upon burning wings of vengence": If a unit of Assaults start the game with 10 marines in the squad, the unit gains this special rule. The unit can advance and charge in the same turn, further to this if they charge after advancing roll a D6 for each marine that ends its charge within 1" of an enemy model(s) that has the "Infantry" keyword, for each roll of 6 that enemy infantry unit suffers 1 mortal wound.

"Leading by example": If the sergeant of the squad is alive, his presence inspires the marines of his squad to greater heroism. Until your next fight phase, Assault marines of this squad pass all morale tests (even if the sergeant is killed during this time) after they have successfully charged.

This means now assault marines now feel like they are crashing into enemy lines and on top of that, the sergeant now confers some benefit to the squad other than being an additional special weapon holster. The benefit I feel is fluffy and useful as it means the squad will not be easily dismissed by taking losses (though some might argue it is minor).

 

For Tacticals

"Pinnacle of the Codex": If a unit of Tacticals start the game with 10 marines in the squad, the unit gains this special rule. This unit has been through all the trials of a neophyte and know all facets of war, this unit can chose how to fight as well as they know where to fight. At the beginning of each of your turns chose one of the following Stances:

- "Relentless Volleys": Boltguns in this squad are treated as Heavy 4 and any enemy units that suffer wounds from these weapons take an additional -1 to their leadership

- "Hold back the tide": Any enemy that attempts to charge this unit must re-roll any successful charge rolls. Overwatch shots hit on 5s or 6s.

- "Put them to the blade!": The squad cannot use their boltguns this turn however may charge the turn they advance and treat pistols as assault weapons. During the turn they charge, models in this unit gain +1 attack

- "Tactical Withdrawl!": This unit may fall back and shoot in the same turn. This unit may not chose a stance until the end of your next turn (however they retain this stance during the following turns).

"Combat Squad": If the sergeant is alive, you may chose to spilt the squad into 2 squads at the beginning of your movement phase. Each Smaller squad must be half of the squads remaining numbers, if possible. If this isn't possible then you can chose which squad will have the extra marine (so if a squad of 9 were to split you can chose which combat squad gets a 5th).

This is fairly out there and continues to push the boat out. Still feel I could do more with their stances and fix them up more, making them something more interesting and varied, would like to figure something out relating to their scout training. Any suggestions for the stances would be welcome. But that's my 2 percent of 100 pennies!