Spring FAQ is out and it's bad news

[BluejayJunior]

Regarding Upon Wings of Fire, take a look at the article they posted with the FAQ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/16/warhammer-40000-big-faq-1-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/)
Specifically, this part: "You’ll still be able to use your Tactical Reserves to keep units safe in the first turn, and Stratagems that allow redeployment still have a strong niche but now, to make the best use of your units that deploy from reserves, you’ll have to wait until the second turn. When playing against a list that uses loads of reserves, you’ll have the chance to prepare your strategies, spread out and tackle key elements of the enemy army before they attack."

I read this as the intent is that UWoF would let you redeploy anywhere on first turn. What are other's thoughts?

[BluejayJunior]

I don't feel as negatively about the Beta rule as others. I think we just have to adapt slightly. See how the first turn shapes up and wait to drop the hammer on the 2nd or 3rd turn. 

[BrotherAetherick]

Regarding Upon Wings of Fire, take a look at the article they posted with the FAQ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/16/warhammer-40000-big-faq-1-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/)

Specifically, this part: "You’ll still be able to use your Tactical Reserves to keep units safe in the first turn, and Stratagems that allow redeployment still have a strong niche but now, to make the best use of your units that deploy from reserves, you’ll have to wait until the second turn. When playing against a list that uses loads of reserves, you’ll have the chance to prepare your strategies, spread out and tackle key elements of the enemy army before they attack."

I read this as the intent is that UWoF would let you redeploy anywhere on first turn. What are other's thoughts?

I thought so too at first but then realized they were probably referring to "strike from the shadows and forwards operatives"  instead.

[The Unseen]

I don't feel as negatively about the Beta rule as others. I think we just have to adapt slightly. See how the first turn shapes up and wait to drop the hammer on the 2nd or 3rd turn.

Against a strong gunline army, you won't HAVE a 3rd turn if you wait to deny some of their shooting by killing and tying stuff up in melee till turn 3.

 

Against a guard player in my area, when my turn 1 alpha strike killed, not joking, 1 out of 4 russes, and literally half, not just a lot, HALF his infantry models on the table (over 75 dead infantry models out of about 160) he still managed to come back and win on turn 6, and he was less than 3 points below me the whole game.

This was using one of the maelstrom missions out of chapter approved, so not quite tournament mission, but still.

 

If I'd had to suffer through another shooting phase of his whole army, I wouldnt had an army turn 3.

[Calistarius]

Regarding Upon Wings of Fire, take a look at the article they posted with the FAQ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/16/warhammer-40000-big-faq-1-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/)

Specifically, this part: "You’ll still be able to use your Tactical Reserves to keep units safe in the first turn, and Stratagems that allow redeployment still have a strong niche but now, to make the best use of your units that deploy from reserves, you’ll have to wait until the second turn. When playing against a list that uses loads of reserves, you’ll have the chance to prepare your strategies, spread out and tackle key elements of the enemy army before they attack."

I read this as the intent is that UWoF would let you redeploy anywhere on first turn. What are other's thoughts?

I'm still on the fence with this.  My initial, knee jerk reaction was that UWoF was unchanged by this.  I'm not certain now, which is a damned shame following a FAQ.  I am certain though that we aren't worse for wear here.  I can't speak for everyone, but rarely is deepstriking multiple units turn 1 a good thing for me.  I don't like being so reliant on rolling 9" charges to survive.

 

I will say though that UWoF did get better now that the unit using it officially does NOT count as falling back.  We can effectively hit and run now with a squad per turn. 

 

Mephiston can no longer use Wings of Sanguinius after deploying with a drop pod.  That's a bummer, but I hate drop pods as is, so this effects me little.  I know some of you will be bummed by this though.

 

I also don't consider the CP farm as being nerfed beyond use.  You still can't beat the combination of abilities for 30 points.

Edit: the points are just referring to the character, and not the detachment for him.  

 

I read someone saying that you can only field one type of detachment now?  This appears to be false.  Unless, someone can point me to it.  I've read it all now, and admit I could have missed it.

 

I think we're fine.  Honestly, they didn't touch our actual codex.  I'm surprised, and disappointed.  There are a lot of things that need expanded and improved upon. *cough* Dante *cough*  BUT I also take them ignoring our book to mean that we function as intended.  They can address things that effect us with blanket adjustments.  We're going to be fine.  Just remember that games can't be won in the deployment phase, but they can certainly be lost.  This rings especially true now with the beta rules.  

 

Overall, I'm stoked.

[Bonzi]

I play both gunline and assault armies in this game. My Crons and AM will be nearly unbeatable vs assault armies if I get a free turn of assured zero assault pressure. That's a free turn of board dominance and open season on the portion of the army that is on the table. Back in 7th that was generally ok because shooting wasn't as amped as it is this edition. With changes to twinlinked and the rise of buff auras, shooting is far and away more effective now. Not to mention that in 7th if you locked a unit into combat it was over...now they just leave and your CC units get decimated.

 

I play both styles of army...I'm not sure the same can be said of the people who thought this rule up. More reasonable restrictions would be no DSing in opponents deployment zone T1 or no DSing with 6" of deployment zone or within 9" of an enemy unit T1. That way if you want to make sure you don't get alpha strikes t1 you at least have to back off your Frontline by 4", possibly putting some of your units out of range of shooting in return for safety. Both sides have a pro and cons that way.

[Calistarius]

I play both gunline and assault armies in this game. My Crons and AM will be nearly unbeatable vs assault armies if I get a free turn of assured zero assault pressure. That's a free turn of board dominance and open season on the portion of the army that is on the table. Back in 7th that was generally ok because shooting wasn't as amped as it is this edition. With changes to twinlinked and the rise of buff auras, shooting is far and away more effective now. Not to mention that in 7th if you locked a unit into combat it was over...now they just leave and your CC units get decimated.

 

I play both styles of army...I'm not sure the same can be said of the people who thought this rule up. More reasonable restrictions would be no DSing in opponents deployment zone T1 or no DSing with 6" of deployment zone or within 9" of an enemy unit T1. That way if you want to make sure you don't get alpha strikes t1 you at least have to back off your Frontline by 4", possibly putting some of your units out of range of shooting in return for safety. Both sides have a pro and cons that way.

I'm not sure who you've been playing against, but if it were me your only targets on turn 1 would be scout squads.  I'm fine with you shooting those all day.  They're there to keep you from dropping in where I don't want you on turn 1.  

 

I dunno, I don't see this as a big deal.  Our codex isn't designed around purely throwing everything at you on turn 1.  If it were we'd have more than 2 stratagems to effectively ensure a single turn 1 charge.  

 

We just need to adapt, deploy smarter knowing that our heavy hitters will begin working on turn 2.  Implement an adjusted form of what you were doing on turn 1 into turn 2.  

[Bremon]

I don’t think chest puffing is helpful in this thread. Highly doubt you are hiding everything so well that Scouts are the only target. It’s pretty undeniable this is a reasonable boost to shooting armies, which arguably are potent enough in 8th. Against a competent A.M. list that has just been handed an extra turn of free shooting you’ll almost assuredly lose. The odds are certainly against you, at minimum. That said, we are still an upper mid-tier book and maybe we will get an FAQ before chapter approved 2018.

 

Some players likely need to be reminded that we do have some shooting of our own. We can reach out and touch some key things here and there and make room for a turn 2 Descent of angels.

[Spagunk]

I've yet to play a game since the codex drop (There are reasons). Good to know that I missed out on some fun assault times.

 

Edit: Kind of how I feel

 

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c7/c77ecd917a931330173bb83b4785d44ee8b9c5eeae634fa0e533765df8e10e03.jpg

ZOMG, NERF SHOVELS!

[tkni]

All of a sudden I think six man intercessors squads are going to be a very valuable thing, along with six man scouts squads.

 

Similarly, that sixth man ablative wound on a devastator squad becomes a lot more useful.

[Deathwalker]

 

All of a sudden I think six man intercessors squads are going to be a very valuable thing, along with six man scouts squads.

 

Similarly, that sixth man ablative wound on a devastator squad becomes a lot more useful.

 

The cynic in me says now you have to by another box to get your 6 man squads.

[Spagunk]

 

 

Similarly, that sixth man ablative wound on a devastator squad becomes a lot more useful.

 

The cynic in me says now you have to by another box to get your 6 man squads.

 

If you haven't already done so, there are those easy to build ones and that one from the magazine thing. I think they are differently posed from the DI box.

[Deathwalker]

 

 

 

Similarly, that sixth man ablative wound on a devastator squad becomes a lot more useful.

 

The cynic in me says now you have to by another box to get your 6 man squads.

 

If you haven't already done so, there are those easy to build ones and that one from the magazine thing. I think they are differently posed from the DI box.

 

Oh,-I- personally have plenty of marines, so that's not an issue for me, I am thinking about new players.

Again,  it's the cynic in me saying it.

[Bremon]

The Start Collecting box works perfectly for that; Rhino chassis are very versatile and can easily make Razorbacks (until my the day of my dreams where Baal Preds are cost effective), and the tac squad is easily convertible to assault marines, veterans or assault marines if you have enough other space marine boxes for bitz. 6+ devastators were already well worth it for ablative wounds so you aren’t losing 38 point models from the word “go”.

[Deathwalker]

So, Will people be putting their JP capable troops back on the field again, or is the protection of not getting shot worth the cost of not DS first turn?

[durdle-durdle]

So, Will people be putting their JP capable troops back on the field again, or is the protection of not getting shot worth the cost of not DS first turn?

I mean, I always played a deep strike heavy army since 6th ed. I’ll still be bringing deep strikers, but I guess I’m going to be bringing 1-3 units instead of half my army.

 

I already hated digging through guard players, but giving them an extra turn to flood out further before I can start bringing in any deep strikers...I’m not excited.

 

Idk. Maybe delaying my deep strikes an extra turn won’t be a big deal, but I see me bringing less reserves than before, since I’m going to have to clear out no man’s land more. And the power restrictions on what I put in reserve means my big blobs of death co and sanguinary guard are going to be hard to bring at all. And if I’m not taking a very heavy deep strike aggressive e list, why am I not playing ultras or something instead?

 

Idk, maybe mech assault is a decent way of going.

[Deathwalker]

 

So, Will people be putting their JP capable troops back on the field again, or is the protection of not getting shot worth the cost of not DS first turn?

I mean, I always played a deep strike heavy army since 6th ed. I’ll still be bringing deep strikers, but I guess I’m going to be bringing 1-3 units instead of half my army.

 

I already hated digging through guard players, but giving them an extra turn to flood out further before I can start bringing in any deep strikers...I’m not excited.

 

Idk. Maybe delaying my deep strikes an extra turn won’t be a big deal, but I see me bringing less reserves than before, since I’m going to have to clear out no man’s land more. And the power restrictions on what I put in reserve means my big blobs of death co and sanguinary guard are going to be hard to bring at all. And if I’m not taking a very heavy deep strike aggressive e list, why am I not playing ultras or something instead?

 

Idk, maybe mech assault is a decent way of going.

 

Yeah, DS was not a thing when I started really, everything just started on the board.

Flooding the board to deny 2nd turn DS I think will be a real problem and I really wish they had giving DS a smaller exclusion bubble (or even ignore it completely in your own DZ) as a trade-off.

As for the direct affect on BA with it............ not impressed at all because how hard it nerfs our two signature units.

Mech assault, I'm good with that, I always mixed JP's with transport tanks or bike squads anyway.

[Xerxus]

Competitive BA armies were already enjoying a fine balance vs gunlines previously. Astra Militarum was a bad matchup, now they get an extra turn of shooting and many of their units don't need LOS. It is almost a guaranteed loss with the old style of list and that was our best tournament build. We are back on the level of vanilla marines without a good Chapter Tactic or Guilliman.

[Deathwalker]

Competitive BA armies were already enjoying a fine balance vs gunlines previously. Astra Militarum was a bad matchup, now they get an extra turn of shooting and many of their units don't need LOS. It is almost a guaranteed loss with the old style of list and that was our best tournament build. We are back on the level of vanilla marines without a good Chapter Tactic or Guilliman.

 

An extra turn of shooting, along with pushing back your DS range, and OW against charges designed to be more miss than hit, and not having to target the closest unit so you can gut the assault troops hiding behind the scout/ tac screen.

 

Lot's of throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks.

 

Something else I was thinking of. The rule of 3 is not a bad one in theory, BUT I think it should apply to detachments, not your whole army. I understand that it potentially re-opens the whole 6 flyrant issue again, but it also means that mixed battalion detachment armies of marines just got their EL/HS/FA options severely limited as well, even the vanilla choices for those slots.

[Palwatch]

Personally I'm going to follow Gws suggestion on this. Will be ignoring the beta rules until they are official. Let them be worked out first as clearly they've just handed gun lines the meta.

 

I look forward to the next FAQ in 6 months

[Deathwalker]

Personally I'm going to follow Gws suggestion on this. Will be ignoring the beta rules until they are official. Let them be worked out first as clearly they've just handed gun lines the meta.

 

I look forward to the next FAQ in 6 months

If no-one plays it, they will think it is fine, so it's catch 22 situation.

I don't disagree with your assessment however.

 

I look forward to facing 13 LR tanks being perfectly legal with my 3 squads of Devs, then getting taxed for underwhelming armour options .............. 

[STTAB]

Since GK were being so badly treated and I wasn't sure where the beta smite would go, I started working on a BA detachment as an alternative for the DS element in my army...

 

Started a thread to discuss the beta DS rule in the beta rules section.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346314-deep-strike-beta-rule/?do=findComment&comment=5057794

[ERJAK]

My only complaint is that I'll have to pay attention to power level when deploying reserves. Toning down the turn 1 alpha striking is objectively a good thing and it's frequently better to wait a turn to strike regardless. The limit of three of a given non-troop unit is again an objectively good thing and should have very minimal impact on most of the builds that I see.

 

This is basically a small indirect nerf but is hardly going to ruin us competetively when every other alpha strike dependent army has the same limitations now.

You're using 'objectively' wrong here. The word you mean is 'subjectively'. Because what this accomplishes is 1. Melee armies are now much weaker and 2. The arbitrary and poorly thought out(why 3? why is 3 better than 4? or 2? or 1? or 5? it's a totally random number) negatively impacts different armies in very different ways. Guard are stronger than ever now.

 

And the big problem is that while other deepstriking alphastrike armies are nerfed... gunlines just got WAY better. You won't have enough left after waiting two turns against a guard parking lot to do anything, unless you concede two turns worth of complete objective control and have just tons of LoS terrain.

[ERJAK]

Im happy they stopped Celestine showing up in litterally every imperial tournament-army. Atleast now you have to bring some of her sisters to the battle (if you play with battlebrothers)

This hasn't been meta since Chapter approved.

 

 

 

Did you guys miss this is the BRB FAQ? I know I did and it's actually quite the game changer for our jump infantry.

Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a

unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include

the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move

for the unit?

A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical

distances when making a charge move. Note though that

the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured

directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to

declare the charge in the first place.

Woa, thats a pretty huge clarification. (the 12" BtB thing)

Wait so if we measure base to to be over 9” away (at a diagonal) when we deepstrike in, then measure horizontally for our charge distance that means we could deploy an inch away horizontally and nine inches vertically and only need a one inch charge to make it????????? That’s can’t be right? Surely that’s not intended?

 

 

They're very clear that this is exactly how it works.

 

Between this and the changes to the number of CP we get from our Battalions I feel like we're in just as good a place as we were before the FAQ. Possibly even better since I'll be looking at a ridiculous 13 CP for my standard lists.

 

The issue is...where are you gonna land? And what player is gonna let you do that if he knows you can? This is a loophole for abusing the stupid, not a buff for the army.

[Deathwalker]

 

My only complaint is that I'll have to pay attention to power level when deploying reserves. Toning down the turn 1 alpha striking is objectively a good thing and it's frequently better to wait a turn to strike regardless. The limit of three of a given non-troop unit is again an objectively good thing and should have very minimal impact on most of the builds that I see.

 

This is basically a small indirect nerf but is hardly going to ruin us competetively when every other alpha strike dependent army has the same limitations now.

You're using 'objectively' wrong here. The word you mean is 'subjectively'. Because what this accomplishes is 1. Melee armies are now much weaker and 2. The arbitrary and poorly thought out(why 3? why is 3 better than 4? or 2? or 1? or 5? it's a totally random number) negatively impacts different armies in very different ways. Guard are stronger than ever now.

 

And the big problem is that while other deepstriking alphastrike armies are nerfed... gunlines just got WAY better. You won't have enough left after waiting two turns against a guard parking lot to do anything, unless you concede two turns worth of complete objective control and have just tons of LoS terrain.

 

 

To be fair, the parking lot is not grabbing objectives, what's grabbing objectives is cheap waves of troops that no longer have to worry about being too close to being DS'ed successfully, 

I agree that they just turned 40k into a shooting gallery with buckets o dice however.