Spring FAQ is out and it's bad news

[Ishagu]

Blood Angel lists will need to adjust to have more conventional elements on the tabletop before turn 2 reserves. On the other hand BA are now the only effective assault army out of reserves.

 

I see BA armies that resemble other Marines being deployed, with a few key units arriving later on from reserves to assault.

[Deathwalker]

Blood Angel lists will need to adjust to have more conventional elements on the tabletop before turn 2 reserves. On the other hand BA are now the only effective assault army out of reserves.

 

I see BA armies that resemble other Marines being deployed, with a few key units arriving later on from reserves to assault.

I see BA being pushed to the extra battalion or vanguard force while the better gunline marines such as DA rise in usage. Why not just cherry pick the best out of the force as even a Batallion + Van gets you 9 cp's now?

[Deadnaughty]

Blood Angel lists will need to adjust to have more conventional elements on the tabletop before turn 2 reserves. On the other hand BA are now the only effective assault army out of reserves.

 

I see BA armies that resemble other Marines being deployed, with a few key units arriving later on from reserves to assault.

You won't beat a shooting army by bringing a worse shooting army and bringing some assault units by the time your almost tabled.

Your deepstrikes now arrive further away from the juicy targets. 

 

How is that a winning tactic?

[The Unseen]

 

Blood Angel lists will need to adjust to have more conventional elements on the tabletop before turn 2 reserves. On the other hand BA are now the only effective assault army out of reserves.

 

I see BA armies that resemble other Marines being deployed, with a few key units arriving later on from reserves to assault.

You won't beat a shooting army by bringing a worse shooting army and bringing some assault units by the time your almost tabled.

Your deepstrikes now arrive further away from the juicy targets. 

 

How is that a winning tactic?

 

 

The Answer, you won't. Have fun playing "worse vanilla marines" again for another edtion. Since Ravenguard still have no problem showing up right next to you turn 1. And good luck living to turn 3 to make it into melee with any Guard army now.

[Panzer]

Eh, we still have some advantages over vanilla marines. The deep strike bombs just don't work against a number of lists anymore. We still have highly mobile infantry and hit harder in melee than any vanilla unit.

[The Unseen]

Eh, we still have some advantages over vanilla marines. The deep strike bombs just don't work against a number of lists anymore. We still have highly mobile infantry and hit harder in melee than any vanilla unit.

All our mobile infantry units are made of glass in an edition where shooting capable of wiping them off the board is both prevalent and cheap.

 

Melee is just straight up worse than shooting, it was already worse before, but you could make it work if you played well, after the FAQ, it's not even close.

So why even bother if the beta rules stick around.

Fighting against gunline guard (a popular army in my area) was already a ridiculously uphill fight, now it's probably legit impossible for me.

Cause it isn't like BA are going to somehow out shoot guard, tau, or eldar, thats straight up laughable.

And if they go first, their getting 2 shooting phases under zero assault pressure from us.

 

I'd just like to note, the armies that have infiltration strategems can still alpha strike to their hearts content.

Genestealer Cults already did what we did, but better.

Admech can still plop rapid fire plasma on cheap bodies in your face turn 1.

Alpha legion can still put 60 berzerkers (bit extreme example, but can do it) 9" away before the first turn starts.

 

If you'd seen across the board changes to reduce all "alpha strike" potential armies had, I wouldn't be so damn salty.

But a leaf blower list that can blow your army apart in two rounds of shooting is totally untouched by all of this, and it was already a strong "strategy".

[Ishagu]

Why are BA worse in other departments? What's stopping them from Running Hellblasters, Sicaran Venators, etc?

 

You can still clear out numbers of models before arriving on the second turn.

[Quixus]

Why are BA worse in other departments? What's stopping them from Running Hellblasters, Sicaran Venators, etc?

Because we do not get things like ignores cover (IF) or -1 to hit outside 12" (RG).

[Karhedron]

Let's consider what we do have to work with. Our Scouts are punchier than standard codex ones and DC (or even Captain Smash) can still pull off a T1 charge using "Forlorn Fury". Whilst not as good as turning up anywhere we like, they still allow us to start applying pressure on Turn 1.

 

A side-effect of this FAQ is likely to be fewer screening units in general which might help to some extent. I think we may see more use of JP units deployed on the table and then redployed using FF, UWOF or simply moving normally depending on the circumstances.

 

I am not trying to pretend that this FAQ does not hit us with the nerf-bat. But I think with a bit of work we can still find ways to hit hard and hit early. We are not Codex Marines -1. We simply have to work a bit harder to pull off our signature moves.

[Deadnaughty]

Has GW discovered a cure for the Black Rage?

 Q: If you use a Stratagem to remove a model from the battlefield and set it up again, does the model retain any persistent effects (for example, a bonus to one of its characteristics as a result of an ability)?

A: No.

From the rulebook faq.

 

 

 

Does a Captain lose Death Visions of Sanguinius when using On wings of fire?

[The Unseen]

Let's consider what we do have to work with. Our Scouts are punchier than standard codex ones and DC (or even Captain Smash) can still pull off a T1 charge using "Forlorn Fury". Whilst not as good as turning up anywhere we like, they still allow us to start applying pressure on Turn 1.

 

A side-effect of this FAQ is likely to be fewer screening units in general which might help to some extent. I think we may see more use of JP units deployed on the table and then redployed using FF, UWOF or simply moving normally depending on the circumstances.

 

I am not trying to pretend that this FAQ does not hit us with the nerf-bat. But I think with a bit of work we can still find ways to hit hard and hit early. We are not Codex Marines -1. We simply have to work a bit harder to pull off our signature moves.

 

Our scouts being slightly better in melee isn't exactly game changing bonus there Karh. And Forlorn Fury against a gunline just ends up with a dead forward unit if you don't get first turn. DC are made of Glass, remember? And Captain Smash, for all he is good at, charging into a screen with him is pointless.

 

And not really, good players are still going to bring screening units, because stuff like genestealer cults, raven guard, and admech still exists just the same.

 

Having to work hard to capitalize on your strengths just leaves you weak overall man. Somebody with a bunch of parked shooting units has to do literally nothing to capitalize on their strengths of hurling buckets of dice downrange with character aura's that don't have to move with screens in front to take up space and grab objectives.

 

We shoot worse than other similar factions, and now we'll struggle to ever get into melee with enough stuff to matter. Am I going to go outside and burn my models? Of course not, but I am going to keep telling GW they need to learn how to right some damn rules.

[Charlo]

A message to all the doom + gloom:

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/023/987/overcome.jpg

 

We are changed as a faction and hit by this, but, by the same token the game is a little better now. Our assault units now just hit turn 2 instead of turn 1. This isn't has huge a deal as some are making it I think. So many of us (myself included) picture us as this insane balls-to-the-wall combat berzerker army but that just isn't us.

 

We're a powerful mid range force (like all marines) with some distinct assault advantages.

 

Captain smash is still going to be a total Monster. We can still wings of fire on the first turn using a unit that we've deployed, (just read the other thread. Guess not) along with descent of angels (and hey, we just got more CP to do so!) combine this with forlorn fury and we can still, if we want, mount a powerful early assault. We just need to be a bit more measured.

 

Also - play with more terrain.

[The4thHorseman]

I just went through my List last Night and basically it converts to Raven Guard quite easily. I did leave the Juicy BA Part as a Supreme Command Detachment though, so Capt Smash, Libby Dread and a Sanguinor. I think that using Raven Guard as T1 DS followed by BA T2 might be a decent Stopgap Measure. With the Super Buff to CP I can basically put as much in Strike from the Shadows as I want and have tons left over to really Juice the BA Element for a really Hard Hitting T2.

[Xerxus]

A message to all the doom + gloom:

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/023/987/overcome.jpg

 

We are changed as a faction and hit by this, but, by the same token the game is a little better now. Our assault units now just hit turn 2 instead of turn 1. This isn't has huge a deal as some are making it I think. So many of us (myself included) picture us as this insane balls-to-the-wall combat berzerker army but that just isn't us.

 

We're a powerful mid range force (like all marines) with some distinct assault advantages.

 

Captain smash is still going to be a total Monster. We can still wings of fire on the first turn using a unit that we've deployed, (just read the other thread. Guess not) along with descent of angels (and hey, we just got more CP to do so!) combine this with forlorn fury and we can still, if we want, mount a powerful early assault. We just need to be a bit more measured.

 

Also - play with more terrain.

 

I appreciate the effort to alleviate the pain but fact of the matter is that this is a huge deal for BA competitively. Not to mention the part where they said that if a unit can block all available standing locations on one floor of a ruin, that unit is immune to assault. An absolutely ridiculous rule that will be abused to our disadvantage every single tournament.

[Blackcadian]

Definitely an interesting read here. While overall I do like the FAQ I also noticed that we seem to get hit the hardest by the new „anti-alpha” rule. In fact I struggle to come up with any other army that is as reliant on elite deep striking units as us. And deep-striking early, too. I'll reserve my final judgement until we’ve all played a few games but having to endure at worst 2 turns of firepower from a gunline seems silly as being intended. We were hardly wiping the floor with those opponents. But yeah, we’ll see.

[The Unseen]

A message to all the doom + gloom:

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/023/987/overcome.jpg

 

We are changed as a faction and hit by this, but, by the same token the game is a little better now. Our assault units now just hit turn 2 instead of turn 1. This isn't has huge a deal as some are making it I think. So many of us (myself included) picture us as this insane balls-to-the-wall combat berzerker army but that just isn't us.

 

We're a powerful mid range force (like all marines) with some distinct assault advantages.

 

Captain smash is still going to be a total Monster. We can still wings of fire on the first turn using a unit that we've deployed, (just read the other thread. Guess not) along with descent of angels (and hey, we just got more CP to do so!) combine this with forlorn fury and we can still, if we want, mount a powerful early assault. We just need to be a bit more measured.

 

Also - play with more terrain.

 

I appreciate the sentiment Charlo, but I would disagree with you on marines being a "powerful" midranged army. Maybe a mediocre one. I personally was only running 2 squads of 8 DC as the only pure "melee" units, plenty of others were capable of it, but it definitely wasn't just a melee list. It's completely gutted now, there is no way its going to survive 2 turns of a gunline without those DC units able to drop in and clear screens and tie up units  so they couldn't shoot anymore, and then backing them up with units like scout and attack bikes, intercessors, etc.

 

And against a competent opponent, using Forlorn Fury, just makes that unit the first one to get blown off the table. DC just aren't tough enough to survive a round of shooting in 8th.

 

Also, sidenote, lots of things ignore LoS  these days. More terrain isn't always the answer, and in a competitive environment, you rarely get to change the board set-up yourself, so while thats good advice, it isn't a cure-all.

 

Saying adapt and overcome is all well and good, but what if the best way to do that is to just play a different army at this point?

[The4thHorseman]

 

A message to all the doom + gloom:

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/023/987/overcome.jpg

 

We are changed as a faction and hit by this, but, by the same token the game is a little better now. Our assault units now just hit turn 2 instead of turn 1. This isn't has huge a deal as some are making it I think. So many of us (myself included) picture us as this insane balls-to-the-wall combat berzerker army but that just isn't us.

 

We're a powerful mid range force (like all marines) with some distinct assault advantages.

 

Captain smash is still going to be a total Monster. We can still wings of fire on the first turn using a unit that we've deployed, (just read the other thread. Guess not) along with descent of angels (and hey, we just got more CP to do so!) combine this with forlorn fury and we can still, if we want, mount a powerful early assault. We just need to be a bit more measured.

 

Also - play with more terrain.

 

I appreciate the sentiment Charlo, but I would disagree with you on marines being a "powerful" midranged army. Maybe a mediocre one. I personally was only running 2 squads of 8 DC as the only pure "melee" units, plenty of others were capable of it, but it definitely wasn't just a melee list. It's completely gutted now, there is no way its going to survive 2 turns of a gunline without those DC units able to drop in and clear screens and tie up units  so they couldn't shoot anymore, and then backing them up with units like scout and attack bikes, intercessors, etc.

 

And against a competent opponent, using Forlorn Fury, just makes that unit the first one to get blown off the table. DC just aren't tough enough to survive a round of shooting in 8th.

 

Also, sidenote, lots of things ignore LoS  these days. More terrain isn't always the answer, and in a competitive environment, you rarely get to change the board set-up yourself, so while thats good advice, it isn't a cure-all.

 

Saying adapt and overcome is all well and good, but what if the best way to do that is to just play a different army at this point?

 

 

I tend to agree with Unseen here, and the sad reality is this has basically left me in a similar position as I was in during 7th ed. Playing Red Raven Guard because their Formations at the time played most like Blood Angels Should and here I am yet again in this Position.

[dakkamasta]

I don't think the rule will stay the way it is when it becomes official. The smite rule changed considerably from the Beta version and that affected far less components of the game than this does. By all means send your feedback to GW to let them tweak it but the sky is by no means falling yet.

 

If you're worried about shooting galleries you're not using enough terrain.

 

For the record, I think that nerfing alpha strike potential is healthy for the game. I just think that it should be done differently. A possible idea would be to let certain armies ignore the deep strike rule for the first turn (similar to how Cult Ambush does). Blood Angels and Grey Knights would be my two picks to be exempt from the rule as a lot of their play style revolves around it. Possibly Deathwing as well.

 

I play 3 other armies aside from BA (Chaos [black Legion + mixed], Tyranids and Guard). These new rules affect all of those armies considerably:

 

- Scions can't alpha strike

- Bloodletter/Horror bombs can't alpha strike

- Terminators/obliterators can't alpha strike - On top of this Warptime can't be used on deep striking units and that's official as of now

- Half of the bloody Tyranid codex is gimped (Mawlocs can't do the one thing they're designed for)

 

I understand you guys are upset, but this stems out a lot further than Blood Angels (I havn't checked the Grey Knights forum but I bet it's not pretty). I highly doubt the rule will see an official publishing in the state that it's currently in because while it does somewhat address the problem of alpha strikes, the consequence is neutering far too many army lists that arn't even top tier competitive.

 

So please give GW your feedback but it's not yet time to panic.

 

 

 

[Palwatch]

I emailed the FAQ address with the following

 

Hi Team

 

Recently I played a game at my local GW. 2k of my Blood Angels vs 2k of a friend's Imperial Guard.

 

My list was as follows - 

 

Batallion

Captain with Jump Pack - PL6

Captain - PL 5

Scout Squad - PL 4

Scout Squad Pl 4

Tactical Squad PL 5

Sanguinary Guard Squad PL 20

Sanguinary Ancient PL 6

Inceptor Squad PL 10

Dev Squad PL 11

 

Batallion

Mephiston PL 8

Lieutenant with JP - PL 5

Intercessor - PL 5

Intercessor PL 5

Tactical Squad PL 5

Storm Raven PL 15

 

Total Power level  - 71

 

Out of the 15 units, I deep struck the Sanguinary Guard, Inceptors and the Ancient.

 

Based on the new rules, that would be 1 point over the allowed deep striking capability of my list, meaning that of the units I chose to deepstrike, Id be forced to not DS one. 

 

A sanguinary guard squad jumps from 8PL for 4 to a massive 20 for 5+. So if I want to have 5 in my list I would be forced to start one of the other two units on the board where they would probably be destroyed. The Inceptors can be hit, and the Ancient because he has to move up the board to be in position to be useful.

 

Then to add to that choice, if I keep the Sang guard in deepstrike, they cant deep strike anywhere useful until T2, where the board will be full enough to make it difficult to DS anywhere at all. 

 

The blood angels codex was designed around their ability to deep strike. Our better strats, such as descent of angels and on wings of fire will be severely nerfed if not completely nullified by this beta. 

 

I know you are looking for feedback, I though this list would be a good indication of the impact it will have on lists that are hardly game breaking

 

I hope you will give this consideration

 

regards

 

Dave

[Deadnaughty]

Nerfing alpha strikes is good for the game. The problem is the deepstrike rule hits assault armies 99% of the time and barely affects gunlines, which are just as much of an alpha strike problem.

[Quixus]

I don't think the rule will stay the way it is when it becomes official. The smite rule changed considerably from the Beta version and that affected far less components of the game than this does. By all means send your feedback to GW to let them tweak it but the sky is by no means falling yet.

Well they removed the -1 per additional attempt for two armies, big deal. They left the idiocy of not allowing two different psykers to cast the same power in the same turn. What happens if only one or two powers you have available are worth the risk? Why is it more balanced to allow multiple uses of a mortal wound dealing power than multiple uses of a power that only increases the attacks by one or adds a 5++?

 

The issue is not smite spam but mortal wounds spam. Mortal wounds are simply too good for the cost of some units that are able to spam them. That is where they should have made a change. Or remove them altogether.

[Captain_Krash]

So are terminators like really really usless now? At least Deep striking Assault Terminators?

 

Krash

[MeltaRange]

You know, EVERY army you play against is not "optimized" against a BA deep strike like you guys are making it out to be.  Every army is not a gross gun line that's going to table you Turn 1.  After all, what's the reason why people basically only bring Scouts these days?  One huge reason is blocking off half the board so as to prevent BA deep strikes into your lines and destroying you on Turn 1.  What if I want to bring Tactical squads, or Intercessors in my army?

 

Wise words from Dakkamasta.  This is a good change from the game and like Sanguinius, we can adapt to this change and overcome.

 

How about maybe using Transports?

 

No one likes playing against the Blood Angels "3 Scout units and Deep Strike" army.  I am guilty of playing it.  People hated playing against me because I would absolutely crush them and they couldn't really do anything Turn 1 but pick up models - even if they got the first turn.  I had basically 3 units of 55pt Scouts, Whirlwinds left out of LoS, and a couple of other min squads as my "tax" so I could stuff as much into reserves as possible.  YOU might like it, but this is a game where 2 people need to enjoy the game.

[BluejayJunior]

I don't think the rule will stay the way it is when it becomes official. The smite rule changed considerably from the Beta version and that affected far less components of the game than this does. By all means send your feedback to GW to let them tweak it but the sky is by no means falling yet.

 

If you're worried about shooting galleries you're not using enough terrain.

 

For the record, I think that nerfing alpha strike potential is healthy for the game. I just think that it should be done differently. A possible idea would be to let certain armies ignore the deep strike rule for the first turn (similar to how Cult Ambush does). Blood Angels and Grey Knights would be my two picks to be exempt from the rule as a lot of their play style revolves around it. Possibly Deathwing as well.

 

I play 3 other armies aside from BA (Chaos [black Legion + mixed], Tyranids and Guard). These new rules affect all of those armies considerably:

 

- Scions can't alpha strike

- Bloodletter/Horror bombs can't alpha strike

- Terminators/obliterators can't alpha strike - On top of this Warptime can't be used on deep striking units and that's official as of now

- Half of the bloody Tyranid codex is gimped (Mawlocs can't do the one thing they're designed for)

 

I understand you guys are upset, but this stems out a lot further than Blood Angels (I havn't checked the Grey Knights forum but I bet it's not pretty). I highly doubt the rule will see an official publishing in the state that it's currently in because while it does somewhat address the problem of alpha strikes, the consequence is neutering far too many army lists that arn't even top tier competitive.

 

So please give GW your feedback but it's not yet time to panic.

I agree. I don't think the rule, if it makes it, will go in unchanged. I also agree with Melta's last point. 

Just remember that it is a Beta, so it probably won't affect most of your games right now. Unless you're playing in an event that enforces the rule, you can just not use it. Just trying to put things in perspective and stay positive. 

[Jolemai]

Keep it cordial gents, otherwise I'll have to wake the Dreadnoughts.