FAQ for Raven Guard... yay nay or meh?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The Good.

 

More command points from battalions/brigades to spend on the super strong c:sm stratagems(lol?).  

-i like this change because it will allow me to use SFTS on 2 more units.. yay!

 

 

Armorium Cherubs now allow hellfire shells and flakk missiles to be fired twice.

-2d3 mortal wounds once per game is good.  Every single space marine list should now have at least 1 missile launcher dev and 1 heavy bolter dev.

 

The Bad.

 

More command points from battalions/brigades to spend on the super strong c:sm stratagems(lol?). 

-so like... why am I not bringing an IG battalion exactly?  180 points for 5 CP?  I understand what GW was trying to do but come on!  This isn't rocket science here.  If you wanted to help elite armies why wouldnt you give additional CP to armies with low model counts?  Im sure an appropriate threshold wouldnt be too hard to determine with minimal playtesting.  Or how about just giving bonus CP to certain armies?  Like if you list is a GK mono list, you get 5 additional CP?  This battalion change is doubly stupid for chaos since they can grab cheap battalions with impressive psychic support for cheap.  Tsons, 3x10 cultists, 2 sorcerers... 5 CPs and mind bullets !  Awsome stuff.

 

The Horror.

 

No Deepstriking outside of your deployment on turn 1.

-I think this is unambiguously bad for Raven Guard and nearly apocalyptic for Raptors/Lias.  Pre-FAQ it was possible to use SFTS in conjuction with normal deepstrike to form a fairly strong midfield firebase on turn 1.  You could sneak in some Vanguard vets, sternguard, and grav cannons with a bunch of deep striking stuff and really goto work.  Now we are stuck with the expensive and somewhat inflexible SFTS which doesnt work well with the new deepstrike since you cant delay SFTS until turn 2.  Of course SFTS is still very good and even more usable with more CPs from battalions but the new DS rules are an unquestionable nerf.  The only bright side to this is that now we don't have to waste even the slightest mental energy thinking about drop pods.  

 

 

Summary!

 

 Turn 1 close combat is basically dead for most armies so we can save points and not use as many screens.  I guess that is good?  On the other hand, Imperial Guard and Tau gunlines will also benefit from this.  Overall I'd say the end result for Raven Guard is a solid MEH.  My condolences to anyone that just started painting Raptors.   

 

 

 

 

[Race Bannon]

Why bad for Raptors again?

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Why bad for Raptors again?

Lias(and his 3 units) can no longer arrive on the first turn accept in their own deployment zone.  If you wanted to setup a turn 1 melta/plasma bomb or a turn 1 charge you are S.O.L.  You can still use SFTS but that is risky, costs CP, and only works well if you get first turn.   Against a barely sentient opponent that DID notice that the game had started, your Lias deepstrike will not land anywhere near a worthwhile target.  

[9x19 Parabellum]

I think your a little gloom, here SG.  This change buffs the hell out of RG.

 

More CPs = more StfS. No need to worry about any native deepstrike stuff at all, which was always chancy/iffy anyways.

 

Remember, they can't do it to you either, which means a greater percentage of our opponent has to engage/kill us the traditional way, which is to say, over 12" which is to say, more -1s to be hit.

 

What did/do you mean about delaying SftS until turn 2? How does one accomplish that?

 

Cheaper IG battalions doesn't impact us any more egregiously than it does any other army, so I can't chalk it up as "bad" specifcially for how it affects RG.  With our Chapter Tactic and no deepstriking crisis/coldstars, etc. I'm happy to get into a long range shooting war with Tau :-)

[MeltaRange]

With all due respect for my Raptor brothers, IMO Lias' ability was already way out of bounds, and I'm happy that it's been indirectly toned down by this change.  It's still fantastic because you can (for FREE) prevent key units from being alpha struck, even if you have to bring them down in your deployment zone.  Or, you can simply bring them down Turn 2.   So while I am sorry that people will probably be mad about it, these changes are about making the game fun for EVERYONE and ultra powered alpha strikes are not fun for the opponent.

 

 

On topic, Raven Guard essentially received a HUGE buff here because they are still able to deploy ANYWHERE using their Stratagem while other armies cannot.  

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

On topic, Raven Guard essentially received a HUGE buff here because they are still able to deploy ANYWHERE using their Stratagem while other armies cannot.  

 

Yep, and are getting more CP's with which to do it.  

[MajorNese]

The issobomb gets delayed to turn 2, but a lot of enemy alpha-strikes too. No more slamguinius smashing your most expensive unit before you got to move a single model. Takes a bit of speed out of the game, first turn stuff has to either SftS, or advance over the field. We're lucky we still have the SftS option, but we can't fill the entire board turn 1 with SftS and deep strike at the same time. Now you gotta decide who has to be where when.

 

Personally, I'm lucky they didn't release this 2 days earlier. The classical issobomb got me a nice place in a local tournament, may it retire for now...

[Race Bannon]

 

 

Now you gotta decide who has to be where when

 

What is this ... strategy ... you allude to

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I think your a little gloom, here SG.  This change buffs the hell out of RG.

 

More CPs = more StfS. No need to worry about any native deepstrike stuff at all, which was always chancy/iffy anyways.

 

Remember, they can't do it to you either, which means a greater percentage of our opponent has to engage/kill us the traditional way, which is to say, over 12" which is to say, more -1s to be hit.

 

What did/do you mean about delaying SftS until turn 2? How does one accomplish that?

 

Cheaper IG battalions doesn't impact us any more egregiously than it does any other army, so I can't chalk it up as "bad" specifcially for how it affects RG.  With our Chapter Tactic and no deepstriking crisis/coldstars, etc. I'm happy to get into a long range shooting war with Tau :-)

I thought the changes were MEH overall.  There are changes that will have effects on Raven Guard we cannot see atm such as battalions and deepstrike nerfing.  Yes DS got nerfed(obliterated really) but that indirectly buffs SFTS.  The reason I put the battalion change as bad and good is because GW was attempting to buff elite armies but transparently and brainlessly buffed horde armies instead.  For the GK or Deathwing people, there is even more incentive to take guard allies not less.  For Raven Guard, whatever.  We like scouts anyways so giddy up 2 CP!  

 

Regarding SFTS:

Pre-Faq you could do the following,

DS 3 units of Vanguard vets.

DS Shrike.

DS 3 Inceptors.

SFTS 2 squads of grav devastators

SFTS 1 bannerman.

 

On turn 1 it all appears in the midfield or 9.000000000000000000000000000000001" away from the enemy.  Then you start blasting/charging/whatever.  Because DS worked on turn 1 with SFTS you could coordinate the 2 rules.  RIght now you cant coordinate them well because DS doesnt work on turn 1 and SFTS doesnt work on turn 2.   

The issobomb gets delayed to turn 2, but a lot of enemy alpha-strikes too. No more slamguinius smashing your most expensive unit before you got to move a single model. Takes a bit of speed out of the game, first turn stuff has to either SftS, or advance over the field. We're lucky we still have the SftS option, but we can't fill the entire board turn 1 with SftS and deep strike at the same time. Now you gotta decide who has to be where when.

 

Personally, I'm lucky they didn't release this 2 days earlier. The classical issobomb got me a nice place in a local tournament, may it retire for now...

That is a good way to go... on top! 

[MeltaRange]

 

 

Regarding SFTS:

Pre-Faq you could do the following,

DS 3 units of Vanguard vets.

DS Shrike.

DS 3 Inceptors.

SFTS 2 squads of grav devastators

SFTS 1 bannerman.

 

 

That's not a fun army to play against.  I can freely admit that even though my army was really similar to that you just posted.  

 

And frankly, 85% of the time I held my VV in reserve until turn 2 anyway since screens needed to be removed.  

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

With all due respect for my Raptor brothers, IMO Lias' ability was already way out of bounds, and I'm happy that it's been indirectly toned down by this change.  It's still fantastic because you can (for FREE) prevent key units from being alpha struck, even if you have to bring them down in your deployment zone.  Or, you can simply bring them down Turn 2.   So while I am sorry that people will probably be mad about it, these changes are about making the game fun for EVERYONE and ultra powered alpha strikes are not fun for the opponent.

 

 

On topic, Raven Guard essentially received a HUGE buff here because they are still able to deploy ANYWHERE using their Stratagem while other armies cannot.  

I would be more inclined to agree with you but players already had the tools to prevent alpha strike assaulting.  Pre-Faq, an assault army is putting pressure on turn 1 and even doing damage if their opponent messed up during deployment.  Post-Faq, shooty armies will be under very little direct pressure from assaulty lists and be able to stack their list with even more shooting since there is less need for good screening.  This mostly good for Raven Guard but a feculent dumpster fire for all kinds of other factions.  

 

Quick question for you.  What can assault armies do (irrespective of LOS blocking terrain that is NOT the norm) to prevent turn 1 alpha strike shooting? 

 

Example, Imperial Guard with a basilisk/Manticore parking lot.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

Regarding SFTS:

Pre-Faq you could do the following,

DS 3 units of Vanguard vets.

DS Shrike.

DS 3 Inceptors.

SFTS 2 squads of grav devastators

SFTS 1 bannerman.

 

 

That's not a fun army to play against.  I can freely admit that even though my army was really similar to that you just posted.  

 

And frankly, 85% of the time I held my VV in reserve until turn 2 anyway since screens needed to be removed.  

 

Ok but how is this setup is different than bog standard Imperial Guard that just starts shooting on turn 1 from inside their deployment zone?  The same applies against any army that can shoot well and start the game with most of their assets on the table.  

[MeltaRange]

 

With all due respect for my Raptor brothers, IMO Lias' ability was already way out of bounds, and I'm happy that it's been indirectly toned down by this change.  It's still fantastic because you can (for FREE) prevent key units from being alpha struck, even if you have to bring them down in your deployment zone.  Or, you can simply bring them down Turn 2.   So while I am sorry that people will probably be mad about it, these changes are about making the game fun for EVERYONE and ultra powered alpha strikes are not fun for the opponent.

 

 

On topic, Raven Guard essentially received a HUGE buff here because they are still able to deploy ANYWHERE using their Stratagem while other armies cannot.  

I would be more inclined to agree with you but players already had the tools to prevent alpha strike assaulting.  Pre-Faq, an assault army is putting pressure on turn 1 and even doing damage if their opponent messed up during deployment.  Post-Faq, shooty armies will be under very little direct pressure from assaulty lists and be able to stack their list with even more shooting since there is less need for good screening.  This mostly good for Raven Guard but a feculent dumpster fire for all kinds of other factions.  

 

Quick question for you.  What can assault armies do (irrespective of LOS blocking terrain that is NOT the norm) to prevent turn 1 alpha strike shooting? 

 

Example, Imperial Guard with a basilisk/Manticore parking lot.

 

 

It's a good question...one of my first thoughts was "ugh...Guard and Hive Guard spam armies are gonna suuuuuuuuuck even more!"  One thing that might help is the rule of 3 they introduced to prevent spam.  Though, 3 basilisks + 3 manticores is still quite a lot.  3x6 Hive Guard (with even more CP to spam their shoot twice strat) is still quite a lot.

 

There is no doubt that these armies will be better than they were. (on top of already being good) Raven Guard at least get the -1 to hit.

[Race Bannon]

Please take 3 basilisks and manticors.  Less of everything else :lol:

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Please take 3 basilisks and manticors.  Less of everything else

The only thing you will see less of are meatshield screens.  

[MeltaRange]

Having a think about it - particularly against Guard - what really changes?  Let's assume a typical Brigade with 6 Infantry units and 3x Scout Sentinels, with most everything else a tank hiding in a corner shooting with no LoS.  If you played a game yesterday, you're still likely spending Turn 1 trying to blast apart the screens so you can land your assault units in a spot to allow you to charge into the tanks and disrupt/kill them. (setting aside SftS for a moment...)  Was anyone fighting that army really landing their Vanguard Vets in front of the screens and trying to charge in Turn 1?  I don't know anyone who was honestly.  So in that light, not much is actually changing, except that some infantry clearing units like Bolter Inceptors might become less useful, since they might be out of range Turn 1 while landing in their deployment zone.  Instead, we may have to use more Bikes/Scout Bikes, TFC, Whirlwinds, Flyers, Heavy Bolters, etc. to clear those Guardsmen from range to setup a Turn 2 charge.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Having a think about it - particularly against Guard - what really changes?  Let's assume a typical Brigade with 6 Infantry units and 3x Scout Sentinels, with most everything else a tank hiding in a corner shooting with no LoS.  If you played a game yesterday, you're still likely spending Turn 1 trying to blast apart the screens so you can land your assault units in a spot to allow you to charge into the tanks and disrupt/kill them. (setting aside SftS for a moment...)  Was anyone fighting that army really landing their Vanguard Vets in front of the screens and trying to charge in Turn 1?  I don't know anyone who was honestly.  So in that light, not much is actually changing, except that some infantry clearing units like Bolter Inceptors might become less useful, since they might be out of range Turn 1 while landing in their deployment zone.  Instead, we may have to use more Bikes/Scout Bikes, TFC, Whirlwinds, Flyers, Heavy Bolters, etc. to clear those Guardsmen from range to setup a Turn 2 charge.

My list got affected!  No more shooty vanguard + inceptors on turn 1 without paying command points and risking going 2nd.  Overall a marginal affect since I can fairly easily alter my list strategy/build.  However, my chaos list got clobbered but that belongs in another subforum.

[Claws and Effect]

The fact that SFTS is unchanged is HUGE for Raven Guard. We can now do something no one else can do = set up turn 1 assaults.

[seriade]

oh and for the guard screen the cost of  a commissar went down to 15 pts and his execution is now on a may so the screen is cheaper.

 

Sanquinary you know if your going first or second before you even place your guys for sfts  it doesn't change much the power level balance to reserves hurts more.

 

 

Qustion does the power level cap on reserve affect sfts?

[duz_]

Im happy with the FAQ in general

Admittedly I think guard did really! Well for themselves.

 

However as others have mentioned RG are in a unique position for first turn shenanigans with extra CPs to boot! :D

Unfortunately if our CTs and stratagems hadnt attracted the wrong crowd before I expect to see more super 1st co marines floating around as RG in the future. Hopefully that doesnt lead to a nerfing of SftS.

[Nusquam]

With all due respect for my Raptor brothers, IMO Lias' ability was already way out of bounds, and I'm happy that it's been indirectly toned down by this change.

 

Militarum Tempestus did it better than Lias; by a fair margin. Between orders and the deepstrike being free/not limited to three units Tempestors and Command Squads  with plasma and then regular scions with volley guns could easily out-gun anything Lias could thanks to orders and points efficiency. Lias is great, don't get me wrong, but its for vanilla space marines and there's always a more efficient port. I wish vanilla marines had a tier zero combo outside gman, but they don't. Now Scions are much more limited because they wanted to strike within 12" to abuse plasma and volley guns.

 

For my Raptor lists I can't deepstrike Lias naturally next to my forward deployed aggressors turn one(unless they end up within 6" of my zone) but instead I can just SftS two more units thanks to the free CP I just got from the battalion buff. I also take Devastators(The only thing vanilla marines can deepstrike with him and maintain comparable points efficiency:range:damage) with Lias so deepstriking in my Deployment happened pretty often already thanks to their range. As did turn 2/3 deepstrikes.

 

Realistically it's a very minor change to my Raptors lists. If I need to set up a fire base with Issodon I'll just sink the points into SftS, if I need more board control/QRF I'll put some in the shadows via Issodon. Raptors are fine. If anything they and their XIX kin got better overall because its more difficult for anyone to alpha our stuff turn one thanks to the -1 outside 12" chapter tactic. Our SftS units, if properly placed, will only get shot at by whats already on the board the first turn.

 

Gunlines are always an obstacle but the key is to only be in range of what you're shooting first as much as possible.  Use our CT to the max and start eating one on end of the gunline and make your way down it. We have a few units that can start on the board that can directly support this like sniper scouts, stalker intercessors, hellblasters, TFC, quad mortars, etc.

 

Over all the FAQ kept out power level the same but lowered those around us/we got better because others got worse.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

oh and for the guard screen the cost of  a commissar went down to 15 pts and his execution is now on a may so the screen is cheaper.

 

Sanquinary you know if your going first or second before you even place your guys for sfts  it doesn't change much the power level balance to reserves hurts more.

 

 

Qustion does the power level cap on reserve affect sfts?

Yeah that is true but you do not know who goes first before you commit points to it.  SFTS is just a bit clunky to use compared to DS because it is easier to make a mistake or just not have any good options other than placing models in your deployment zone anyways.  

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

oh and for the guard screen the cost of a commissar went down to 15 pts and his execution is now on a may so the screen is cheaper.

 

Sanquinary you know if your going first or second before you even place your guys for sfts it doesn't change much the power level balance to reserves hurts more.

 

 

Qustion does the power level cap on reserve affect sfts?

Yeah that is true but you do not know who goes first before you commit points to it. SFTS is just a bit clunky to use compared to DS because it is easier to make a mistake or just not have any good options other than placing models in your deployment zone anyways.

That's mitigated by the fact that they still get their full movement phase.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Maby a silly question. If you use SFTS youbput model on the board before or after roll for First turn And seize?

[Nusquam]

It's before the start of the first turn, of which you can't start until after the seize step. So rather than go from seize to start turn one as normal, you try to seize, SftS, then start turn one.