Sisters and Big FAQ #1

[Beams]

I throw most of my units in Repressors, but you don't want all, since they can't traverse terrain, and any good map will be covered in a wide amount. Which is why Celestine and Seraphim are a great compliment, they move wherever, soak decent firepower and melta whatever they can touch.

[Rod.H]

As I've only two Repressors, I've not really used them en-mass. Then again I'm in a bit of an country-wide anti-FW zone & I've not exactly finished assembly or painting of them yet. Then again that covers a variety of things on the painting table of shame I've even circled back to resume Necrons -my sole Xeno army- after doing stuff with Space Marines/Dark Angels.

 

Though I've a thought, the Super-heavy detachment, that can still be from another Imperial force right? Stormlord tank with heavy flamer sponsons - two parts of the Trinity.

[taikishi]

There are a few things in the FAQ that actually prohibit our ability to take certain detachments or units regardless of if you want to play "pure Sisters" or not:

 

1. we have even less reason to bring a Supreme Command detachment between Ro3 and no soup as there is currently no Adeptus Ministorum or Adepta Sororitas Lord of War and the fact we fill 3 of our 5 total HQ choices on one detachment

 

2. no inquisitors outside a Supreme Command detachment (and then you must bring three) or Vanguard detachment

 

3. to bring a single unit of Sisters of Silence, Legion of the Damned or a single assassin you must lose 1CP on an Auxiliary detachment otherwise you must bring at least three of any of these in a Vanguard detachment that provides 0CP

 

4. as pointed out, you'll likely have to bring both Special Characters if you want to field two Battalions or a Brigade and another detachment

 

5. if you want to build a 3E WH-style force, you must use two and possibly all three detachments to do so -- one for the Inquisitor (which must include Acolytes or Jokaero or Daemonhosts unless you take Supreme Command, then it's 3 inquisitors) one for the storm troopers, one for your Sisters.

 

And then while this doesn't affect us directly...

 

You can't play an all-Legion of the Damned army above 940 points (rule of 3)

You can only play all-Sisters of Silence by taking near max-sized units and only have 3CP for the entire game.

[Aothaine]

I throw most of my units in Repressors, but you don't want all, since they can't traverse terrain, and any good map will be covered in a wide amount. Which is why Celestine and Seraphim are a great compliment, they move wherever, soak decent firepower and melta whatever they can touch.

 

This is a good point. I'm still working my list around to figure out how I want it setup. Sadly, Battle Nuns are expensive points wise and not very resilient. I know I want my units in groups of 3 and I know I want three battle sister squads, dominions and retributors. This does not leave any points for Celestine or Seraphim sadly. I build my lists without special characters because I want my lists to be able to be used at Table Top Tactics tournaments when they start. Now, Celestine might be allowed as she is more like an Emperor's Champion and not really a Named character but others might not view it that way. So I'll be rocking lists without her but have a side list that adds her into the mix just in case.

 

I really see the use for Seraphim and plan to eventually have three squads of them but my initial list is going to just go without that element of the sisters and use units in repressors initially. I don't expect them to stay in them for long. I expect them to get popped. But the Repressors give the units a massive toughness increase. 

[Warsmith Aznable]

How is Celestine not a named character now?

[Beams]

How is Celestine not a named character now?

 

Old lore suggested that she was merely an average sister who would don the armor before the battle, new lore suggests she's a warp presence not a human.

[Aothaine]

How is Celestine not a named character now?

 

She is also stated to be in every order. Not just a specific order. There are few characters that are not tied to a specific chapter/order/etc. So I would consider the unit to be limit 1 but not limited to order. Also Celestine is a unit that can take Gemini (I think that is what they are called). Not sure of any other units that are multi-model but are considered a named character.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

 

How is Celestine not a named character now?

Old lore suggested that she was merely an average sister who would don the armor before the battle, new lore suggests she's a warp presence not a human.

IIRC she wasn't just any Sister putting on the armour at any given time, but a singular individual Repentia who found the armour during the event that elevated her to living saint status. The armour didn't make her a living saint, she was given the armour because she was turning into one.

[ERJAK]

 

I throw most of my units in Repressors, but you don't want all, since they can't traverse terrain, and any good map will be covered in a wide amount. Which is why Celestine and Seraphim are a great compliment, they move wherever, soak decent firepower and melta whatever they can touch.

 

This is a good point. I'm still working my list around to figure out how I want it setup. Sadly, Battle Nuns are expensive points wise and not very resilient. I know I want my units in groups of 3 and I know I want three battle sister squads, dominions and retributors. This does not leave any points for Celestine or Seraphim sadly. I build my lists without special characters because I want my lists to be able to be used at Table Top Tactics tournaments when they start. Now, Celestine might be allowed as she is more like an Emperor's Champion and not really a Named character but others might not view it that way. So I'll be rocking lists without her but have a side list that adds her into the mix just in case.

 

I really see the use for Seraphim and plan to eventually have three squads of them but my initial list is going to just go without that element of the sisters and use units in repressors initially. I don't expect them to stay in them for long. I expect them to get popped. But the Repressors give the units a massive toughness increase. 

 

Drop the retributors for seraphim. Seraphim are so versatile and so good for 91pts for 5 that I can't imagine taking a list that doesn't have at least one unit.

 

I had a unit of seraphim win me a game at adepticon by themselves because they flew up 22" first turn and sniped out the banner of the emperor ascendent in a ravenguard drop list.

[taikishi]

Not that it matters for us with Ro3, but more reason I hate the DS rule and power level in general:

 

5 seraphim with inferno pistols, 91 points, 4 PL.

5 Battle Sisters with three storm bolters, 51 points, 4 PL.

6 Battle Sisters without gear, 54 points, 8 PL.

Celestine without her twins: 200 points, 8 PL

5 Dominions with four meltaguns anda  combi-melta, 137 points, 5 PL.

Same squad with 5 storm bolters, 60 points, 5 PL x.x

Same squad stock: 50 points, 5 PL

 

 

You have a variance by as much as 87 points within a squad for the same power level meanwhile adding a model to a single squad doubles its power level but only barely doubles its point cost. Between a squad and a character, that same power level is a difference of 146 points

[Aothaine]

 

 

I throw most of my units in Repressors, but you don't want all, since they can't traverse terrain, and any good map will be covered in a wide amount. Which is why Celestine and Seraphim are a great compliment, they move wherever, soak decent firepower and melta whatever they can touch.

 

This is a good point. I'm still working my list around to figure out how I want it setup. Sadly, Battle Nuns are expensive points wise and not very resilient. I know I want my units in groups of 3 and I know I want three battle sister squads, dominions and retributors. This does not leave any points for Celestine or Seraphim sadly. I build my lists without special characters because I want my lists to be able to be used at Table Top Tactics tournaments when they start. Now, Celestine might be allowed as she is more like an Emperor's Champion and not really a Named character but others might not view it that way. So I'll be rocking lists without her but have a side list that adds her into the mix just in case.

 

I really see the use for Seraphim and plan to eventually have three squads of them but my initial list is going to just go without that element of the sisters and use units in repressors initially. I don't expect them to stay in them for long. I expect them to get popped. But the Repressors give the units a massive toughness increase. 

 

Drop the retributors for seraphim. Seraphim are so versatile and so good for 91pts for 5 that I can't imagine taking a list that doesn't have at least one unit.

 

I had a unit of seraphim win me a game at adepticon by themselves because they flew up 22" first turn and sniped out the banner of the emperor ascendent in a ravenguard drop list.

 

 

It doesn't really fit the theme. Don't get me wrong though I am not saying they are not good. Because they are. I plan on getting some eventually as well. 

[hunterkiler86]

so does this mean the amount of imagifiers i can take is 3 per army, or 3 per detachment?

[_Saracen]

so does this mean the amount of imagifiers i can take is 3 per army, or 3 per detachment?

3 per army as it currently stands

[Beams]

 

 

so does this mean the amount of imagifiers i can take is 3 per army, or 3 per detachment?

3 per army as it currently stands

Here's hoping, come 2019, they are 30 pts and 1-3 in a datasheet

[Mossback]

That would be an awful lot of Acts of Faith. I don't think GW would make that kind of change. Other armies would howl with anger if our AoFs were to become so common.

[Aqui]

That would be an awful lot of Acts of Faith. I don't think GW would make that kind of change. Other armies would howl with anger if our AoFs were to become so common.

That, or so many armies inexplicably having at least a couple of Sisters units allied in :lol:

[ERJAK]

 

That would be an awful lot of Acts of Faith. I don't think GW would make that kind of change. Other armies would howl with anger if our AoFs were to become so common.

That, or so many armies inexplicably having at least a couple of Sisters units allied in

Gonna take a spearhead of sisters just for :cuss and giggles? There would have to be an insane power-jump for it to be worth blowing that amount of points on imagifiers in an allied detachment. Remember, you can't just toss a seraphim squad and Celestine into a detachment anymore.

 

Making them 1-3 per datasheet would be irrelevant, the 30pt change would be a much bigger impact. Even in the more infantry heavy builds the Faq forces sisters into, having 4-5 imagifiers, let alone 9, is more wasteful than helpful. At 3 you've maxed out the retributor squads you can buff and are still only averaging 1.5 additional aofs. Adding additional imagifiers beyond that means you're using them to slingshot more seraphim turn one, slingshotting themselves to catch up to units further up field, or AoFing battle sisters and frankly, most BSS squads are going to be either triple melta or triple stormbolter(you see heavybolters every once in a while but I'm not sold on it) and it's cheaper to buy a triple stormbolter squad than an imagifier once you adjust for how random their ability is and a triple melta squad in range of an imagifier is unlikely to have much in the way of targets.

 

If you really want to make imagifier worth using for anything other than filling out brigades or camping with retributors, the drop to 30pts is part of it but they need a 6" speedboost/range boost and a relic that can make at least one more consistent. Expanding the datasheet to let you take 9 of them is just a new player trap.

[Lord Grimskull]

Gonna take a spearhead of sisters just for :cuss and giggles? There would have to be an insane power-jump for it to be worth blowing that amount of points on imagifiers in an allied detachment. Remember, you can't just toss a seraphim squad and Celestine into a detachment anymore.

 

Making them 1-3 per datasheet would be irrelevant, the 30pt change would be a much bigger impact. Even in the more infantry heavy builds the Faq forces sisters into, having 4-5 imagifiers, let alone 9, is more wasteful than helpful. At 3 you've maxed out the retributor squads you can buff and are still only averaging 1.5 additional aofs. Adding additional imagifiers beyond that means you're using them to slingshot more seraphim turn one, slingshotting themselves to catch up to units further up field, or AoFing battle sisters and frankly, most BSS squads are going to be either triple melta or triple stormbolter(you see heavybolters every once in a while but I'm not sold on it) and it's cheaper to buy a triple stormbolter squad than an imagifier once you adjust for how random their ability is and a triple melta squad in range of an imagifier is unlikely to have much in the way of targets.

 

If you really want to make imagifier worth using for anything other than filling out brigades or camping with retributors, the drop to 30pts is part of it but they need a 6" speedboost/range boost and a relic that can make at least one more consistent. Expanding the datasheet to let you take 9 of them is just a new player trap.

To this point, and completely speculation at the moment, I almost expect in 2019 when the codex drops that one of the Orders (probably Martyred lady, c'mon) will have something that allows imagifiers to AoF on a 3+ or something instead, that would greatly exacerbate things if we could field 9.

 

You get a soul burst and you get a soul burst! Er, wait.....

[Mossback]

Honestly, in a 1,000 to 2,000 point game, you could have three Imagifiers, one army wide AoF, and Celestine's auto AoF. That is potentially five AoFs every turn. Granted, if your dice roll like mine, you might get one or two from the Imagifiers. That is still quite a few out of phase actions we can take. Half of the time, I end up with AoFs that I can't use due to no targets, out of range, etc. Add in the strategem Martyrdom for 1CP everytime your character gets popped,I think we have a generous number of AoFs we can use. I would much rather we get more command units so we aren't struggling with taking three Canonesses, Celestine, and the overcosted Shotgun Hobo Jacobus.

[A.T.]

I end up with AoFs that I can't use due to no targets, out of range, etc.

Always seem to have too few or too many - too few because you can't keep characters and squads together and because there never seems to be enough for more than one seraphim squad to benefit, too many because the rest of the sisters are in vehicles, the imagifiers can't keep up with anyone, and the penitents/exorcists can't use them.

[Beams]

 

 

That would be an awful lot of Acts of Faith. I don't think GW would make that kind of change. Other armies would howl with anger if our AoFs were to become so common.

That, or so many armies inexplicably having at least a couple of Sisters units allied in

Gonna take a spearhead of sisters just for :cuss and giggles? There would have to be an insane power-jump for it to be worth blowing that amount of points on imagifiers in an allied detachment. Remember, you can't just toss a seraphim squad and Celestine into a detachment anymore.

 

Making them 1-3 per datasheet would be irrelevant, the 30pt change would be a much bigger impact. Even in the more infantry heavy builds the Faq forces sisters into, having 4-5 imagifiers, let alone 9, is more wasteful than helpful. At 3 you've maxed out the retributor squads you can buff and are still only averaging 1.5 additional aofs. Adding additional imagifiers beyond that means you're using them to slingshot more seraphim turn one, slingshotting themselves to catch up to units further up field, or AoFing battle sisters and frankly, most BSS squads are going to be either triple melta or triple stormbolter(you see heavybolters every once in a while but I'm not sold on it) and it's cheaper to buy a triple stormbolter squad than an imagifier once you adjust for how random their ability is and a triple melta squad in range of an imagifier is unlikely to have much in the way of targets.

 

If you really want to make imagifier worth using for anything other than filling out brigades or camping with retributors, the drop to 30pts is part of it but they need a 6" speedboost/range boost and a relic that can make at least one more consistent. Expanding the datasheet to let you take 9 of them is just a new player trap.

If you run foot sisters you'll see the appeal, especially when you realize max size squads are actually pretty good. Not saying take nine of them, but taking 4/5 without using all the elite slots in your detachment would help tremendously.

[ERJAK]

 

 

 

That would be an awful lot of Acts of Faith. I don't think GW would make that kind of change. Other armies would howl with anger if our AoFs were to become so common.

That, or so many armies inexplicably having at least a couple of Sisters units allied in

Gonna take a spearhead of sisters just for and giggles? There would have to be an insane power-jump for it to be worth blowing that amount of points on imagifiers in an allied detachment. Remember, you can't just toss a seraphim squad and Celestine into a detachment anymore.

 

Making them 1-3 per datasheet would be irrelevant, the 30pt change would be a much bigger impact. Even in the more infantry heavy builds the Faq forces sisters into, having 4-5 imagifiers, let alone 9, is more wasteful than helpful. At 3 you've maxed out the retributor squads you can buff and are still only averaging 1.5 additional aofs. Adding additional imagifiers beyond that means you're using them to slingshot more seraphim turn one, slingshotting themselves to catch up to units further up field, or AoFing battle sisters and frankly, most BSS squads are going to be either triple melta or triple stormbolter(you see heavybolters every once in a while but I'm not sold on it) and it's cheaper to buy a triple stormbolter squad than an imagifier once you adjust for how random their ability is and a triple melta squad in range of an imagifier is unlikely to have much in the way of targets.

 

If you really want to make imagifier worth using for anything other than filling out brigades or camping with retributors, the drop to 30pts is part of it but they need a 6" speedboost/range boost and a relic that can make at least one more consistent. Expanding the datasheet to let you take 9 of them is just a new player trap.

If you run foot sisters you'll see the appeal, especially when you realize max size squads are actually pretty good. Not saying take nine of them, but taking 4/5 without using all the elite slots in your detachment would help tremendously.

 

Max sized squads are just min sized squads that take friends with them when they die, in games against mid-tier offensive lists or heavily defensive lists, the extra effectiveness of having a large number of girls all recieving the AoF bonus will overcome the extra costs associated with morale losses. Units of 10 or even 20 will work so long as your opponent isn't equipped to kill 30+ 3++ saves per turn, but scooping an extra 5-15 sisters per turn against more hardcore armies ends up being a pretty intense point/CP sink.

 

As for imagifiers, the difference between taking 3 imagifiers and taking 5 is 1 AoF, if imagifiers were 10 points cheaper or went off on a 3+ being able to essentially double a units capabilities would be hard to argue with, but when you're spending 80pts per AoF(each imagifier is essentially .5 aofs), with no guarantee they'll go off when you really need them, it would be better to just buy another squad, especially considering an 8 girl triple stormbolter squad is only 78pts.

 

Also to piggyback on what Mossback and A.T. have said, I've had the exact same problem with imagifiers to the point where i don't run ANY unless I only have 40pts left over after taking everything else I wanted. They need either a more effective delivery system or to double the range they can give AoF's. That said, I also think Lord Grimskull has a point, too many changes one on top of each other could easily break SoB infantry altogether. We obviously can't have both 9 imagifiers and significantly more effective imagifiers in this...not as bad as 7th edition...post FAQ world, and given the choice, I'd rather gain more effectiveness in individual imagifiers than the ability to take more.

[Beams]

The issue becomes you can only have 3 Dominion squads, who output 30 Bolter shots. When next to a Cannoness, each squad averages a dead guard swuad each time they fire.

 

If you add in an Imagifier, you kill one and a half Guardsmen squads on average. With three stormbolter/Bolter Dom squads, you can kill an average of 45 Guardsmen a turn, but if your willing to burn a CP reroll and potentially your 2+, it's a lot closer to 60. Or you can move quickly to get to objectives 12"+2d6" means you can move fast as anything. Which is something that is often overlooked in these discussions, but often wins me games.

 

So those hordes that everyone complains about are dead, giving Celestine and her melta Maidens a clear shot at anything bigger, with their 27" threat range.

 

Any more imagiifers past a certain point is overkill, there is definitely diminishing returns, but 4-5 was good for a foot sisters list, now we're looking at 3 which is doable but not ideal.

[Aothaine]

The issue becomes you can only have 3 Dominion squads, who output 30 Bolter shots. When next to a Cannoness, each squad averages a dead guard swuad each time they fire.

 

No no no sir/mam you're doing it wrong. You give Dominion Squads Storm Bolters. Gives them double the shots.

[Beams]

 

 

The issue becomes you can only have 3 Dominion squads, who output 30 Bolter shots. When next to a Cannoness, each squad averages a dead guard swuad each time they fire.

No no no sir/mam you're doing it wrong. You give Dominion Squads Storm Bolters. Gives them double the shots.

Sorry, 30 shots each. 10 from Bolters, 20 from stormbolters. 60 if they AoF.