Sisters and Big FAQ #1

[taikishi]

You need to finish reading the rest of Beams' post.

 

30 bolter shots, rerolling 1s = 11.9 dead guardsmen a turn

 

 

Imagifier increases this to 13.8.

 

Add 15 storm bolters to these three squads and it goes up to 20.7

 

Add in the 2+ act of faith and this is 25.6, or 26.5 with a CP on the AoF.

 

Get everything into rapid fire range and now you're throwing out 53 dead guardsmen a turn. 55 if the canoness is equipped with a storm bolter and boltgun.

 

Don't know where you're getting 45 and 60 from, though, Beams. Only 1 imagifier.

[Beams]

You round up each guard squad. If you can kill 9 of them, even around a lord commisar, the last one instantly dies to morale.

 

And if they aren't around a lord commisar, killing 6 in a squad means d6 of the 4 left die, and if you get 8, they auto lose theast two.

 

45 is the "average" number of shots a turn you'd get with an Imagifier sitting next to a sisters dominion squad, and 30/60 is the actual max values you can get.

 

Mathematically, without any cover, and next to a Cannoness, you need about 3.2 bolter shots to kill a Guardsmen. With this build I can. Theoretically pump out 190 (180+6 from Imagifiers, 4 from Cannoness) shots in a single turn with three squads and four support Characters, clocking in at 497 pts, with only a stormbolter as upgrades on the Cannoness. That's more shots than my 2000 pt Power Armor Bullet spam grey Knights army can put out a turn.

 

Granted, I'm burning through at least a command point a turn, but it's in the movement phase, and the rest of my army is going to be a brigade/battalion of BSS with meltas/flamers in Repressors and Celestine with melta seraphim, and I'm prolly taking two Cannonesses with eviscerators and plasma pistols instead of stormbters.

[Aothaine]

You round up each guard squad. If you can kill 9 of them, even around a lord commisar, the last one instantly dies to morale.

 

And if they aren't around a lord commisar, killing 6 in a squad means d6 of the 4 left die, and if you get 8, they auto lose theast two.

 

45 is the "average" number of shots a turn you'd get with an Imagifier sitting next to a sisters dominion squad, and 30/60 is the actual max values you can get.

 

Mathematically, without any cover, and next to a Cannoness, you need about 3.2 bolter shots to kill a Guardsmen. With this build I can. Theoretically pump out 190 (180+6 from Imagifiers, 4 from Cannoness) shots in a single turn with three squads and four support Characters, clocking in at 497 pts, with only a stormbolter as upgrades on the Cannoness. That's more shots than my 2000 pt Power Armor Bullet spam grey Knights army can put out a turn.

 

Granted, I'm burning through at least a command point a turn, but it's in the movement phase, and the rest of my army is going to be a brigade/battalion of BSS with meltas/flamers in Repressors and Celestine with melta seraphim, and I'm prolly taking two Cannonesses with eviscerators and plasma pistols instead of stormbters.

 

Basically, we're in good shape. Let's hope the codex doesn't ruin things for us. 

[ERJAK]

You round up each guard squad. If you can kill 9 of them, even around a lord commisar, the last one instantly dies to morale.

 

And if they aren't around a lord commisar, killing 6 in a squad means d6 of the 4 left die, and if you get 8, they auto lose theast two.

 

45 is the "average" number of shots a turn you'd get with an Imagifier sitting next to a sisters dominion squad, and 30/60 is the actual max values you can get.

 

Mathematically, without any cover, and next to a Cannoness, you need about 3.2 bolter shots to kill a Guardsmen. With this build I can. Theoretically pump out 190 (180+6 from Imagifiers, 4 from Cannoness) shots in a single turn with three squads and four support Characters, clocking in at 497 pts, with only a stormbolter as upgrades on the Cannoness. That's more shots than my 2000 pt Power Armor Bullet spam grey Knights army can put out a turn.

 

Granted, I'm burning through at least a command point a turn, but it's in the movement phase, and the rest of my army is going to be a brigade/battalion of BSS with meltas/flamers in Repressors and Celestine with melta seraphim, and I'm prolly taking two Cannonesses with eviscerators and plasma pistols instead of stormbters.

This set-up was much more efficient when you could take 8-9 units of SB domis in immolators/repressors and have the whole thing blazing away turn 1 as it stands this particular build runs into some serious issues. 

Ten girl squads on foot(and I don't see how you could do this particular set-up without them being on foot) in a list that is otherwise mechanized just gives your opponent a happy little target for his sponson heavy-bolters, and if he kills 6 girls per squad he's likely to neuter them down to nothing after losing 1-4 more to morale. T3 is very fragile even with a 3+ save and you'll be lucky to get 1 squad into rapid fire range alive.

The range is hilariously short, 24" for half the stated effectiveness, shotgun range for the full monty. This means that you'll be in range of THEIR low strength anti-infantry shooting too.

 

Your mechanized units will arrive at their targets before the dominions do unless you AoF them, even with a scout move, which means it's possible you won't be able to clear the chaff in time. You're paying 40pts for 15 extra stormbolter shots in rapid fire range when you could pay 51 for 16 extra stormbolter shots and an entire other squad. 

 

Not having a scout move for your melta squads means they'll likely never reach a target against more aggressive shooting armies. I've had several games this edition where I've had all of my tanks wiped off the board in a single turn, even running 6+. Battlesisters make a poor melta platform, relative to their efficiency as a stormbolter platform.

 

Then you have to consider the alternatives, instead of doing that setup for 497pts you could take 3 units of HB retributors with the same character support  for 465 and have 54 S5 Ap-1 shots coming down field from 36" away instead of 67.5 S4 ap - shots from 24". Admittedly you give up the higher number of rapid fire range shots, but the likely-hood of more than half of the total number of dominions surviving to make it to 12 inches is very small. 

 

I think a large number of stormbolter shots is still very very good(especially considering that flamers are unusably overpriced) and very important to a well balanced SoB list, but now only being able to take 3 units of dominions means that battle sisters are simply a better delivery system. I also think that taking squads of 10 is something that will never work(except for seraphim), even in horde lists. We have no significant defense against morale losses and SoB are too much on the razors edge of competitive to afford losing as much as a third of each squad to morale when they take casualties. We also gain very little benefit to additional bodies in the squads, even with AoFs taken into account. Squads of 20 would see a significant enough boost from an AoF to justify taking that many, but are even more vulnerable to morale.

 

Side bar:I also hate that the only way we can take a brigade+battalion list is with uriah '60pts too expensive' Jacobus.

[Beams]

I've used it and done great. Moving six inches before the game and eliminating their troops and scouts helps, and pushes the opponent into their deployment zone, giving me all the midfield objectives, and gives me a spot to move Celestine to.

 

It's also surprisingly durable. Heavy Bolters on average need 5 to kill a single in the open girl, and 7 to kill a girl in cover, so I'm really not scared. And if they kill a Dominion squad, so what? I've got plenty of BSS squads ready, and it basically means that Celestine and her buddies are alive and kicking, burning through anything that is still alive.

 

Don't get me wrong, heavy Bolter rets are good, and once I get some, I'll prolly use a lot more of them, but they suffer from a lack of mobility.

[Aothaine]

I prefer my Doms with Stormbolters in Repressors. 12" move at the start, another 12" move puts them in rapid fire usually and if not you can advance afterward with a -1 to hit with 28 Storm Bolter Shots (20 from sisters and 8 from the double storm bolter on the repressor). It flays enemy lines. So damn good. I will never field sisters without three of these squads. You can even add a 6th dominion if you wanted another four storm bolter shots.

 

Dominions are amazingly good right now. ^_^

[bkde]

I prefer my Doms with Stormbolters in Repressors. 12" move at the start, another 12" move puts them in rapid fire usually and if not you can advance afterward with a -1 to hit with 28 Storm Bolter Shots (20 from sisters and 8 from the double storm bolter on the repressor). It flays enemy lines. So damn good. I will never field sisters without three of these squads. You can even add a 6th dominion if you wanted another four storm bolter shots.

 

Dominions are amazingly good right now. ^_^

Stormbolters are Rapid Fire 2, not assault. So advancing and shooting with stormbolters is not permitted.

[CaptainHelion]

Also, only 4 Dominions can take special weapons. Any extra Dominions beyond that can only take regular bolters.

[Beams]

Also, only 4 Dominions can take special weapons. Any extra Dominions beyond that can only take regular bolters.

The superior can take a combi Bolter, which includes a stormbolter, giving you five stormbolters.

[Lord Grimskull]

 

I prefer my Doms with Stormbolters in Repressors. 12" move at the start, another 12" move puts them in rapid fire usually and if not you can advance afterward with a -1 to hit with 28 Storm Bolter Shots (20 from sisters and 8 from the double storm bolter on the repressor). It flays enemy lines. So damn good. I will never field sisters without three of these squads. You can even add a 6th dominion if you wanted another four storm bolter shots.

Dominions are amazingly good right now. ^_^

Stormbolters are Rapid Fire 2, not assault. So advancing and shooting with stormbolters is not permitted.

RAW when the repressor advances it doesn't prevent the occupants from firing since they aren't considered having moved (firing ports rule is different than open topped, -thanks forge world)

 

Unless that was errataed recently?

 

"Old man Grimskull, talking about Repressors again..."

[taikishi]

Just like RAW we don't gain Ob Sec for Adeptus Ministorum detachments, only Adepta Sororitas ones or how you can't take a Krakenbone Sword unless your warlord is a Space Wolf character and you have a Space Wolf deatchment but you can still take Kurov's Aquila in the same army so long as you have a Guard detachment and spend a CP on the guard equivalent of Relics of the Armoury.

[bkde]

 

 

I prefer my Doms with Stormbolters in Repressors. 12" move at the start, another 12" move puts them in rapid fire usually and if not you can advance afterward with a -1 to hit with 28 Storm Bolter Shots (20 from sisters and 8 from the double storm bolter on the repressor). It flays enemy lines. So damn good. I will never field sisters without three of these squads. You can even add a 6th dominion if you wanted another four storm bolter shots.

Dominions are amazingly good right now. ^_^

Stormbolters are Rapid Fire 2, not assault. So advancing and shooting with stormbolters is not permitted.

RAW when the repressor advances it doesn't prevent the occupants from firing since they aren't considered having moved (firing ports rule is different than open topped, -thanks forge world)

 

Unless that was errataed recently?

 

"Old man Grimskull, talking about Repressors again..."

From the second sentance in firing ports:

 

"Firing Ports: Up to six models...line of sight any point in on the vehicle. Units that shoot in this manner count as having moved if they or the Sororitas Repressor moved in the preceeding movement phase." (Imp Armour pg. 54)

 

My understanding was that if the Repressor advances, assault style weapons could still be fired (with the occupants suffering -1 to hit as per the assault weapon rules). However rapid fire and heavy style weapons may not be fired.

[taikishi]

Looks like bkde got cut off. RAW, firing ports says models inside count as having moved if the transport moved.

[Lord Grimskull]

Ahh, there we go. Thank you for the clarification. (I was going off of memory)

[taikishi]

So, this is partially tied to the FAQ and partially not.

 

Chapter Approved lists Adepta Sororitas, not Adeptus Ministorum, as the faction trait for gaining access to the relic, stratagems, Ob Sec and (lol) warlord trait. This means you have to bring at least one detachment of Adepta Sororitas without any of the following units to gain access to the relic (with an AS warlord) and stratagems. It also means any detachment that includes these units loses Objective Secured:

 

Uriah Jacobus

Ministorum Priests

Arco-Flagellants

Crusaders

Death Cult Assassins

Penitent Engines

 

I don't think anyone's really caught this until now, but that also means you can't build (for example) a Battalion or Brigade that includes Priests, Jacobus or Penitent Engines if you want Objective Secured on your Battle Sister squads and if you do bring a detachment that brings these units you need to bring a second detachment (non-Auxiliary Support) of pure Sisters to get access to the two stratagems and the Relic.

 

It also makes Rule of 3 that much more painful since it potentially brings us down to two HQ choices, one of which is named, and two Heavy Support choices if we want to take advantage of Ob Sec.

[Mossback]

Where is the objective secured rule? I haven't used it, but I did make a brigade detachment and take a priest and three Penitent Engines. That is really going to stink if we lose access to the relic blade and strategems because I added in a priest and the PEs. No one I game with has called me on it, and frankly would probably not since they feel sisters are already getting screwed over with our lack of Codex and new models. I try to play my sisters as correctly as possible, but the new FAQ is really going to hurt us.

[Eddie Orlock]

Where is the objective secured rule?

left hand column, pg. 88, Chapter Approved 2017.

[taikishi]

Chapter Approved 2017, p. 88 and 89

 

p. 88:

 

 

This section lists additional rules for several specific Factions - THOUSAND SONS HARLEQUINS, DEATHWATCH, GENESTEALER CULTS, DRUKHARI, T'AU EMPIRE, ADEPTA SORORITAS, ORKS, NECRONS, IMPERIAL KNIGHTS and SPACE WOLVES."

 

No mention of Adeptus Ministorum. Further, on the same page:

 

 

To use these rules you must have a Battle-forged army. If all of units in a detachment have the same Faction keyword, and that keyword is one of those listed above, the detachment gains the following ability:

 

Objective Secured

If your army is Battle-forged, all Troops units in <Faction> Detachments gain this ability. Such a unit that is within range of an objective marker (as specificed in the mission) controls it even if there are more enemy models within range of it. If an enemy unit within range of the objective marker has a similar ability, then it is controlled by the player who has the most models within range as normal.

 

As per the previous section, <Faction> must be Adepta Sororitas, not Adeptus Ministorum since Adeptus Ministorum isn't one of the "above" factions.

 

The stratagems are handled on the next page.

 

 

If your army is Battle-forged and includes any ADEPTA SORORITAS Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you have access to the following Stratagems:

 

Relic:

 

 

If your army is led by an ADEPTA SORORITAS Warlord

 

 

So I may be wrong about the relic and probably am, but my first readings of the same section in CA and each of the Codexes led me to the interpretation that you have to have a detachment of that Faction to gain access to the Warlord traits, Psychic disciplines, Relics and Tactical objectives as well as Objective Secured (or equivalent ability), faction-specific abilities like Chapter Tactics and the army's stratagems.

 

However, as you can see, if none of your detachments are pure Adepta Sororitas you can't use Objective Secured and if the only Adepta Sororitas detachments you bring are Auxiliary Support detachments you still don't gain access to the stratagems.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I put it down to Adeptus Ministorum being separated from Sisters of Battle out of a larger design principle in the Index, and then the implications being forgotten about or overlooked during later rules writing of the Chapter Approved.

 

All those things in the AdMini army list are de facto "Sisters of Battle" in my mind because of their origin in previous codexes and their long historical inclusion in "Sisters of Battle" armies. We'll see how it goes in this future promised SoB codex, though.

[Atrus]

Worst case scenario we just gotta have a vanguard detachment or ministorum with a laughably over costed priest character.

[Drider]

So, this is partially tied to the FAQ and partially not.

 

Chapter Approved lists Adepta Sororitas, not Adeptus Ministorum, as the faction trait for gaining access to the relic, stratagems, Ob Sec and (lol) warlord trait. This means you have to bring at least one detachment of Adepta Sororitas without any of the following units to gain access to the relic (with an AS warlord) and stratagems. It also means any detachment that includes these units loses Objective Secured:

 

Uriah Jacobus

Ministorum Priests

Arco-Flagellants

Crusaders

Death Cult Assassins

Penitent Engines

 

I don't think anyone's really caught this until now, but that also means you can't build (for example) a Battalion or Brigade that includes Priests, Jacobus or Penitent Engines if you want Objective Secured on your Battle Sister squads and if you do bring a detachment that brings these units you need to bring a second detachment (non-Auxiliary Support) of pure Sisters to get access to the two stratagems and the Relic.

 

It also makes Rule of 3 that much more painful since it potentially brings us down to two HQ choices, one of which is named, and two Heavy Support choices if we want to take advantage of Ob Sec.

 

I've been complaining about priests and penitent engines breaking my detachments since CA rolled out. 

[Atrus]

Id be extremely surprised if this issue is not solved when we get our dex or at least when the experimental rules come out.

[Montford]

Or perhaps in the Chapter Approved for this year.

[Aqui]

Or perhaps in the Chapter Approved for this year.

Unless I misunderstood, the experimental rules for Sisters would be in Chapter Approved 2018. Kinda makes sense them to publish them like that.

[Atrus]

Hmph grumble grumble geedub getting even with us for not buying CA17...