The last nail in the coffin of Deathwing

[Interrogator Stobz]

And I assume that the targets are in cover because the opposition is not stupid.

[Endgame]

Why use Deathwing terminators at all? Grenade harness tartaros are the most effective terminator at clearing chaff, and cataphractii already have the 4+ save.

 

As for dwa, I would love to see it be a flat 1cp if your whole list has the Deathwing keyword. It would incentivize full Deathwing armies at least a little bit.

[march10k]

And I assume that the targets are in cover because the opposition is not stupid.

Ah, it's your assumption of cover offsetting Belial's presence.  That's why we're getting different numbers with Belial present.  I think that's a bad assumption.  You can't simultaneously provide effective bubble wrap AND ensure that everyone's in cover.  So perhaps it's best to hyphenate your numbers with mine?

 

 

Why use Deathwing terminators at all? Grenade harness tartaros are the most effective terminator at clearing chaff, and cataphractii already have the 4+ save.

Because we already have them?  Why spend a few hundred bucks for a marginal increase in efficiency?  Anyway, 4 frag missiles beats grenade harness, no?

[Interrogator Stobz]

I think somewhere in the middle might be fair in a general sense.

But I play with plenty of terrain and my opponent spreads out too, that either makes them hard to see or outside 12”, your mileage may vary of course.

I have once caught 20 DSing Guard Vets in the open and wiped them, that was nice.

[SnakeChisler]

Terminators need a redesign, with Custodes coming out with 3 wounds and T5 your stuck basically coz that's what terminators should be.

 

So gaze over at the golden boys and move on.

[Project XXVIII]

While the down'd horse is being pummeled, I might as well toss my boots into the mix,..

Deathiwng was always a niche army, I've played them straight up and mixed in balanced lists for years,.. but it doesn't keep me from shaking my head, wrinkling my eyebrows and giving a condescending smirk. But having said that I'm not surprised things have gone the way they have. I could walk down the road of "Primaris will spell our doom",.. but that's for another topic,.. of which I can drone on and on about. I guess the best things to do is exactly what I see here,.. brainstorming ideas to use these new rulings, or what we could do to get the Beta modified before it becomes Legit.

DWA - while it looks cool on paper, it's staggering cost is TERRible,.. now I don't have my book handy, can anyone confirm WHEN the bonus round of shooting happens? Somehow I seem to remember the bonus round happening it what is essentially the movement phase,.. so could that be used to say clear up some space for additional DSing DW Squads to come in immediately after? Another thought is to perhaps use a Land Raider Prometheus,.. it'd knock the cost of the Strat down by one,.. not amazing,.. but something. Combat squads as well help,.. put all your big guns in one basket,.. 2CP for 2xCombi Plasma, 4xAssault Cannon and 4xSB doesn't sound too bad,.. and sounds really good at 1CP.

The FaQ makes mention of certain armies being immune to the DS rulings,.. perhaps having DW squads entering play using the Strat could be as well? It'd make up for the high cost and give back some of the DW's "uniqueness".

+++snip++

[Berzul]

+++snip+++

As for the DWA rules, yeah, it happens just after the squad drops.

[breng77]

+++snip+++

 

 

  The problem terminators have is the same one they have always had, they try to do too much.  You are paying for a 2 wound body with a 2+ save, a 5++, a storm bolter, the ability to deepstrike and a power fist.  Generalists in this game always suffer.  They just don't put out enough firepower for their points in either assault (2 attacks with weapons that hit half the time is bad), or shooting 4 shots for 40 points when agressors put out more than twice that amount for 3 points less.

 

Terminators have very few advantages over agressors. 

Primary advantage that they have is the ability to deepstrike, and slightly better defense if cover is not involved.

Aggressors are faster, and shoot far more with an average of 9.5 shots per model  or 3.89 points per shot (1.94 if they double shoot) vs at best 10 points per shot for the terminators.

[Interrogator Stobz]

+++Brothers, this thread has drifted off topic and is not a wishlister or a let's fix DW thread. I am also guilty of the heinous crime of offtopicness and will  join you all in the Chapters pain gloves immediately. If you have something constructive to say about the death of DW, please do, otherwise refrain or be removed+++

 

 

 

Carry on.

[Endgame]

 

Because we already have them?  Why spend a few hundred bucks for a marginal increase in efficiency?  Anyway, 4 frag missiles beats grenade harness, no?

 

My spreadsheet says (which could be wrong) that 1 grenade harness kills 1.33 guardsmen vs .888 from a cyclone with frag. The thing that hurts the cyclone (besides being 42 points more expensive) is the -1 to hit, stacked with the AP 0. This presumes deathwing assault, though - if you're standing still, the cyclone creeps up to 1.19 guardsmen killed. The AP -1 from the grenade harness makes up for the slightly fewer average attacks.

 

Additionally, the Tartaros have the reaper ACs going for them as well - for less than the points of the Cyclone, you can have reaper AC + Grenade Harness on a Tartaros which adds just a touch more dead guardsmen than the stormbolter + Grenade Harness (about .2 more dead guardsmen to be exact).

[march10k]

That is interesting, I hadn't been thinking of the reaper autocannons. Is that 8/9 of a dead guardsman from two frag missiles?  That's pretty pitiful, if it is.  You'd get nearly the same results from a pair of krak missiles (.83 kills), I guess the starting point of 2D3 shots would make the .88 more consisitent than the .83, though. 

 

So let's compare ten stormbolters and two CMLs (frag) against eight stormbolters, two reapers, and a grenade harness. Assuming not only deepstrike, but DWA, as well.

 

 

Primary advantage that they have is the ability to deepstrike, and slightly better defense if cover is not involved.

Correction.  If cover is not involved AND the incoming fire has no AP. If there is AP, then terminator armor is better even with cover.  And I wouldn't call the difference between 2+ and 3+ 'slight.'

[Berzul]

I've come to think of the DW as a good one-squad support unit, rather than a main force of the army.

 

I'm starting to incorporate one squad of Terminators with Storm Bolters to drop with a Terminator Master for DW Assault, or a Deathwing Knight squad with an Interrogator Chaplain for a melee support unit.

 

They will run you under 400 points. You drop them on turn 2, aided by some fast response Ravenwing or even on turn 3 to close the exit of units preassured by advancing green wing. You can either go with 20+20 bolter shots with rerolls, or the 3++ and melee prowess, of each squad. A good command rerroll or even master of maneuver can ensure a charge once they drop, and with rerrolls to maximize hits, they can do some good damage.

 

It is a small enough force foryour opponent to ignore it, or to the hurt of loosing it not weighing much on you if they do focus on them.

Perhaps this is how GW envisioned we played the DW?

[Endgame]

 

That is interesting, I hadn't been thinking of the reaper autocannons. Is that 8/9 of a dead guardsman from two frag missiles?  That's pretty pitiful, if it is.  You'd get nearly the same results from a pair of krak missiles (.83 kills), I guess the starting point of 2D3 shots would make the .88 more consisitent than the .83, though. 

 

So let's compare ten stormbolters and two CMLs (frag) against eight stormbolters, two reapers, and a grenade harness. Assuming not only deepstrike, but DWA, as well.

 

 

 

For a single volley, presuming that you've moved, i get the below (double the numbers for DWA + following shooting phase) for base without rerolls, master reroll, and belial reroll. Note belial is typically a bad investment from an efficiency standpoint with heavy weapons, as you don't get to reroll native 3s on the heavies.

 

 

2 Cyclone, 10x Storm Bolter: 13.63 dead guardsmen. 6.5 dead tac marines. Total cost 492 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 8 Storm Bolter: 14.92 dead guardsmen. 7.07 dead tac marines. Total cost 440 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 1 Plasma Blaster, 7 Storm Bolter. 14.85 dead guardsmen. 7.22 dead tac marines. Total cost 455 points.

 

Reroll 1s (add 100 points with jump pack master w/ Heaven fall blade and master craft bolter):

2 Cyclone, 10x Storm Bolter: 15.90 dead guardsmen. 7.69 dead tac marines. Total cost 592 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 8 Storm Bolter: 17.41 dead guardsmen. 8.25 dead tac marines. Total cost 540 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 1 Plasma Blaster, 7 Storm Bolter. 17.32 dead guardsmen. 8.52 dead tac marines. Total cost 555 points.

 

Belial Rerolls (150 points)

2 Cyclone, 10x Storm Bolter: 17.98 dead guardsmen. 8.71 dead tac marines. Total cost 642 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 8 Storm Bolter: 19.59 dead guardsmen. 9.28 dead tac marines. Total cost 590 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 1 Plasma Blaster, 7 Storm Bolter. 19.49 dead guardsmen. 9.48 dead tac marines. Total cost 605 points.

[march10k]

I've come to think of the DW as a good one-squad support unit, rather than a main force of the army.

 

I'm starting to incorporate one squad of Terminators with Storm Bolters to drop with a Terminator Master for DW Assault, or a Deathwing Knight squad with an Interrogator Chaplain for a melee support unit.

 

They will run you under 400 points. You drop them on turn 2, aided by some fast response Ravenwing or even on turn 3 to close the exit of units preassured by advancing green wing. You can either go with 20+20 bolter shots with rerolls, or the 3++ and melee prowess, of each squad. A good command rerroll or even master of maneuver can ensure a charge once they drop, and with rerrolls to maximize hits, they can do some good damage.

 

It is a small enough force foryour opponent to ignore it, or to the hurt of loosing it not weighing much on you if they do focus on them.

Perhaps this is how GW envisioned we played the DW?

 

 

In my 'standard' DA list, I'm sort of in the same place...only it's ten tactical terminators with no upgrades and Belial.  ~1/3 of my points, but with another 1/4 going into inceptors, and all of that arriving at the same time (probably not the same place), It gives me a lot of flexibility to cover multiple threats while presenting target priority dilemas.  Termies aren't the toughest to kill, but when you have multiple groups of inceptors, a large group of termies, and an extremely well bunkered lascannon farm to deal with, it's hard to focus any one of them down, and no matter where you put your energy, the other elements will make you pay.  But in concept, yeah, a single squad that's not the star of any show.

 

 

 

That is interesting, I hadn't been thinking of the reaper autocannons. Is that 8/9 of a dead guardsman from two frag missiles?  That's pretty pitiful, if it is.  You'd get nearly the same results from a pair of krak missiles (.83 kills), I guess the starting point of 2D3 shots would make the .88 more consisitent than the .83, though. 

 

So let's compare ten stormbolters and two CMLs (frag) against eight stormbolters, two reapers, and a grenade harness. Assuming not only deepstrike, but DWA, as well.

 

 

For a single volley, presuming that you've moved, i get the below (double the numbers for DWA + following shooting phase) for base without rerolls, master reroll, and belial reroll. Note belial is typically a bad investment from an efficiency standpoint with heavy weapons, as you don't get to reroll native 3s on the heavies.

 

 

2 Cyclone, 10x Storm Bolter: 13.63 dead guardsmen. 6.5 dead tac marines. Total cost 492 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 8 Storm Bolter: 14.92 dead guardsmen. 7.07 dead tac marines. Total cost 440 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 1 Plasma Blaster, 7 Storm Bolter. 14.85 dead guardsmen. 7.22 dead tac marines. Total cost 455 points.

 

Reroll 1s (add 100 points with jump pack master w/ Heaven fall blade and master craft bolter):

2 Cyclone, 10x Storm Bolter: 15.90 dead guardsmen. 7.69 dead tac marines. Total cost 592 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 8 Storm Bolter: 17.41 dead guardsmen. 8.25 dead tac marines. Total cost 540 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 1 Plasma Blaster, 7 Storm Bolter. 17.32 dead guardsmen. 8.52 dead tac marines. Total cost 555 points.

 

Belial Rerolls (150 points)

2 Cyclone, 10x Storm Bolter: 17.98 dead guardsmen. 8.71 dead tac marines. Total cost 642 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 8 Storm Bolter: 19.59 dead guardsmen. 9.28 dead tac marines. Total cost 590 points.

2x Reaper, 2x Grenade Harness, 1 Plasma Blaster, 7 Storm Bolter. 19.49 dead guardsmen. 9.48 dead tac marines. Total cost 605 points.

 

 

Ah, thanks for that.  I wasn't aware that grenade harnesses were one per five, I thought they were one per squad.  I can see that Tartaros are a little more effective and a lot more efficient...that's enough that I'd choose them over regular TDA if I were starting from scratch, but it's nowhere near enough to make me go out and buy more plastic crack. 

 

I'll file this info away for when I start my consecrators iron wing (I still have five assault marines and a full tactical squad to do to finish DA's 5th company) centered on deimos pattern predators and razorbacks with 3x5 breachers (for rule of cool, count as tacticals) to make them a battalion.  Pure 30k sweetness in a 40k list....that's consecrators!  When I expand them, I'll definitely consider a Tartaros squad of dakkastation!

[Interrogator Stobz]

Post those numbers where FW will see, and before they finish Chapter Approved 2019

[Endgame]

 

Post those numbers where FW will see, and before they finish Chapter Approved 2019

FW or GW?

 

In any case, normal DWT (and really Indomitus Terminators in general) are eclipsed by Tartaros. Ideally, GW would give the Indomitus a special role to make up for the lack of speed compared to the tartaros. I'd vote for ignoring the -1 for firing heavy weapons, as that makes assault cannons about the same effectiveness as grenade harness Tartaros - I'm not sure if it increases the efficiency enough though.

[march10k]

Given the choice, I would have taken tartaros over indomitus in the first place, just for the autocannons.  Those have always been my favorite heavy weapon.

[sneakybamsen]

I've decided against my previous judgement - I'm going to get 2 boxes of Tartaros. They look cool, and more options for my Blackwing is always nice. The verdict so far on cataphractii is a no for me. They are just too slow. They look even cooler than tartaros, but that 4" movement and half advance makes them nigh on unplayable after they landed (and possibly failed that charge). Also they are more expensive. That doesn't help an already hampered unit type.

 

I'm planning on magnetising at least 5 of the tartaros terminators so they can be either claw wielders or SB+PF guys. That'll give the use I'm hoping will make me play them once in a while.

[Berzul]

Well, talking about Deathwing and how it sucks on its own, I literally just finished a game against a T'au friend.

 

Played a very non-competitive list, mind you. Couple of squads with an Apothecary and some librarians, a shroud for support, 3 squads of missile tacticals for flakks and the CPs of the Batallion. Some deathwing knights with IC, champion and ancient in Deep Strike.

 

I got massacred halfway through turn two. And since I had first turn, that means the battle lasted less than 1 and a half battle rounds.

 

Lost the termies to his gunline as I tried to move in closer, then the knights in overwatch. Characters were left hanging to be picked off, so I was forced to concede befor my second turn was done.

 

Man.... i intentionally made a list that was fun and non conpetitive, I know... but, I feel like I played a bag of breadcrumbs for an army against a host of hungry ducks.

[sneakybamsen]

You always do create well rounded lists, Berzul, at least I think so. I rarely find them remotely competitive (which is a good thing), but it sounds like you ran into a list that was designed for more serious gaming than yours. That and/or bad luck. I don't know what Tau are capable of, except that they do it all gunline style, as I never played against them, but the beating you took wasn't because of the deathwing :)

 

I know the feeling, those games where you have no hope in hell of achieving anything but minor moral victories.

 

Your next list might be slightly stronger, but I am confident you'll bounce right back for a win even if it's not.

[Interrogator Stobz]

It is however a good indication that DW by themselves are dead and therefore not costed properly.

[Master Avoghai]

Nice debate here though I don't suscribe on the initial statement judging that the FAQ is the last nail in the coffin for Deathwing.

 

Actually this FAQ made me want to try my Deathwing again whereas initial release of the v8 made me packed them and didn't use them anymore....

 

The reason?  The repulsive anti DS line deployment (or whatever name you give to it) and the generalization of alpha strike in other armies.

 

Consequence : My alpha strike always occured far from the most dangerous enemy units. On the other hand,since I didn't benefit from cheap repulsive unit, my opponent was free to DS near my terminators and vaporize them.

 

 

Now the beta rules have actually open more possibilities to me.

 

The basic idea of list is 

 

Belial

Temrinator Libby

 

5xDWK

5xterminators with AC

10xterminators with 2AC and 5TH/SS

 

Darkshroud

 

Land raider Crusader

Land Raider Crusader

 

I put the 5TH/SS and the DWK in the crusaders with the libby.

The shroud is beside

Belial and the 2 shooty squads are in DS

 

I have 6 units to deploy hence more chances to get the 1st turn

Turn 1 : rush and wash the possible repulsive lines with bolters and AC from the cruzes

Turn 1 : enemy fear not the shooting phase thanks to the resilience of 2 LR protected by a shroud

Turn 2 : Disembark your passengers, move. DS your units to support your passengers, start a DW assault on the squad with 2AC

 

Will this strategy won tournies? No, I've given up for long the idea to win a tournament with DW

Will this work in non tourny environment? Yes, surely enough to have good times and laugh.

 

 

So actually I'm fine with the FAQ as it allows me to actually play an army that I've stopped playing because of the 8th meta.

 

 

Now about the other debate (what makes termis weak)

 

• Price : it should be 21 or 23 with stom bolters (makes 35 with glove). I don't see why a termi with bolter should be more than 5pts from an intercessor with bolter. Not troops choice, not obj sec, only 1pts save more, and the DS capacity which is about to be nerfed... It's really not worth more.
• No power sword option. I'm fine with the glove but the fact to be obliged to pay for EVERY termi getting one is simply useless 1 or 2 per squad is enough, 4 is overkill. This raise the cost without giving more efficiency. DA are a sword-them chapter, we should have the option to play SB/PS termis
• Few CP. I don't understand this. 8th is about CP and keywords. Wouldn't have been simple to create such a special rule : If your warlord army contains a vanguard detachment composed exclusively of [DEATHWING] units, then you gain +3 PC rather than 1. (note that you could do the same with RW)

Price could be resolved in CA 2019 or even the big FAQ of september

The glove option, I don't see GW modify it unfortunately. They are in their vibe to give only options available in the box set, and unfortunately there's only one powersword.

CP could be also added by an errata or a campaign book involving the DW/RW...

[Berzul]

You always do create well rounded lists, Berzul, at least I think so. I rarely find them remotely competitive (which is a good thing), but it sounds like you ran into a list that was designed for more serious gaming than yours. That and/or bad luck. I don't know what Tau are capable of, except that they do it all gunline style, as I never played against them, but the beating you took wasn't because of the deathwing :)

 

I know the feeling, those games where you have no hope in hell of achieving anything but minor moral victories.

 

Your next list might be slightly stronger, but I am confident you'll bounce right back for a win even if it's not.

Thanks!! :D I do try and keep them well rounded and I have never ever felt like any of my lists are competitive; that much atleast is true.

 

To detail, I brought

 

Libby

Libby

Terminator libby

TDA Chaplain

 

2x5 Barebones Terminator Squads

1x5 DW Knights

Full Commmand Squad

Ven Dread with Twin Lascannon, Power Fist, Flamer

 

Darkshroud

 

3x5 Tactical Marines with Missile Launchers

 

My opponent played a Brigade and a Vanguard, including:

 

Shadowsun

Cadre Fireblade

Dark Strider

Commander

Ethereal

 

4x5 Firewarrior teams

2x5 Breacher teams

2x5 Pathfinder teams (rails and ions)

2x3 Stealth Suit teams

2 Marker snipers

1x6 Sniper drones

Ghostkeel

2 Rail Broadsides

Riptide

Lots of extra drones everywhere

 

He formed a covered gunline in his side. I deployed front and center the 2 squads lf termines, the libbies, apothecary, dread and darkshroud. Missiles up a ruin.

 

Got first turn. Moved up, killed some firewarriors and wounded the Ghostkeel (was out of range of everything else, including the Riptide). He moved up, little, killed the shroud, then killed all but one model in one squad, two out of the other. Sniped 3 wounds on one librarian.

 

Next I healed the librarian as I moved up some more. Droped the knights, TDA characters, champion and ancient, to his side and in reach of the broadsides and sniper drones. Got the riptide to 1 wound, killed some pathfinders, firewarriors and breachers. Charged, failed all, and lost 3 knights to sniper drone overwatch.

 

... and that was it. We called it.

 

It certainly felt like I came with the most unprepared list ever. No place to drop amongst his swarm of models, no range to kill high priority targets, low rate of fire, low mobility; all against an enormous amount of heavy fire with a LOT of buffs and synergy.

 

Many things go into a result. Bad list, good opponent, deployment, scenario, luck... but, having played this person many times before, and more often than not being able to beat him (or atleast making him work for his win) this defeat makes me feel like the DW were a big part of the problem.

 

One thing is to be defeated. That happens. You deal and learn.

 

But this was just absurdly one sided. Like you said, I had "no chance in hell".

 

In fact, that is what actually got me mad. Not losing. I actually like for my friends to win, because winning keeps you invested and I like having these friends (and this guy in particular) sharing the hobby with me. The thing was that the game was just so f****** short!!! :(

 

An hour of setting up the table for like 20 minutes of play. Man, that just ruins my day.

[Panzer]

All that I got from that is that he got extremely lucky with his Sniper Drones ... doing 3 wounds on the Librarian and killing 3 knights in overwatch with just 6/12 BS4+ S5 AP0 (MW on 6s) shots the only two times they were able to shoot lol

[Berzul]

Might look like it. But it is not just luck. The list had awesome synergy to give the drones a BS 2+, full rerrolls for hitting and wounding, and +1 to wound rolls. It was great list building on my opponent's part in that sense.