The last nail in the coffin of Deathwing

[Berzul]

(...)

Now about the other debate (what makes termis weak)

 

• Price : it should be 21 or 23 with stom bolters (makes 35 with glove). I don't see why a termi with bolter should be more than 5pts from an intercessor with bolter. Not troops choice, not obj sec, only 1pts save more, and the DS capacity which is about to be nerfed... It's really not worth more.
• No power sword option. I'm fine with the glove but the fact to be obliged to pay for EVERY termi getting one is simply useless 1 or 2 per squad is enough, 4 is overkill. This raise the cost without giving more efficiency. DA are a sword-them chapter, we should have the option to play SB/PS termis
• Few CP. I don't understand this. 8th is about CP and keywords. Wouldn't have been simple to create such a special rule : If your warlord army contains a vanguard detachment composed exclusively of [DEATHWING] units, then you gain +3 PC rather than 1. (note that you could do the same with RW)

Price could be resolved in CA 2019 or even the big FAQ of september

The glove option, I don't see GW modify it unfortunately. They are in their vibe to give only options available in the box set, and unfortunately there's only one powersword.

CP could be also added by an errata or a campaign book involving the DW/RW...

 

I agree that terminators should be cheaper. But I doubt the weapon options will vary, as the box rules ver the rules in that regard. And as for CP, I think that could be a dangerous way to go. When you start making keyword special exceptions to CPs, any amy can then jump on the bandwagon. Everyone has an elite group of units that, to their own mindset, should be rewarded with more CP as to make them viable.

 

I think that, instead, GW should up the base amount of CP, for all battle forged armies. I understand they went with giving more to Batallions and Brigades, because the do not want us to play elite armies. They want us to play troops, with some elites here and there. But, if the purpose was to change into giving elite armies something to stand on, the way to go would be to give all battleforged armies more CP (say, 5 instead of 3), instead of just more for batallions and brigades.

 

Lets face it. We don't have that many stratagems useful for DW, and with what few there are, many are way to expensive. I mean, DWA of course is 2 or 3. But then you have things like intractable for 2, honor the chapter for 3 (which I think is just crazy expensive), only in death does duty end for 2, orbital bombardment for 3... those are seriously expensive!

 

As for price per model... I actually began doing the comparison after my game last night.

 

A 10 man Tactical Squad, barebones, has a Movement of 6, 10/20 shots at S4 AP0 D1, 10 wounds, 3+ save, and is inmune to DX weapons, but weak against multiple attacks at D1. The cost for this is 130 points.

A 5-man Deathwing Terminator Squad, barebones, has a Movement of 5, 10/20 shots at S4 AP0 D1, 10 wounds, 2+ save, more vulnerable to DX weapons, somewhat less so to multiple attacks at D1. The cost is 192 points.

 

Considering Beta Rules for deepstrike, I meassure them both as they count on the ground turn 1.

 

You are spending 62 more points for the Terminators, and that hardly seems worth it. If this gap was a bit lower, that would make them a lot more useful.

[Panzer]

Might look like it. But it is not just luck. The list had awesome synergy to give the drones a BS 2+, full rerrolls for hitting and wounding, and +1 to wound rolls. It was great list building on my opponent's part in that sense.

 

To be fair that's rather easy. Marksman gives +1 to Sniper Drones, Drone Controller gives +1 and 5+ Markerlights gives +1 as well (and re-roll 1s ... also Markerlights don't have the sniper rule to target Characters). However even then so many wounds are rather unlikely and modificators don't apply in Overwatch.

[Berzul]

 

Might look like it. But it is not just luck. The list had awesome synergy to give the drones a BS 2+, full rerrolls for hitting and wounding, and +1 to wound rolls. It was great list building on my opponent's part in that sense.

 

To be fair that's rather easy. Marksman gives +1 to Sniper Drones, Drone Controller gives +1 and 5+ Markerlights gives +1 as well (and re-roll 1s ... also Markerlights don't have the sniper rule to target Characters). However even then so many wounds are rather unlikely and modificators don't apply in Overwatch.

 

 

Well, its the sum of things.

 

First, used Kauyon and another rule to get full rerrolls on wounds and hits on his gunline.

Then he focused markers on my Darkshroud, got rerrolls and +1 to hit it.

Then he managed a wound on the Darkshroud and used the +1 to wound it stratagem.

Shot it down quickly after that.

Then, with the shroud gone, he wiped out the Terminators that where around my first librarian. I was forced to take the models out in such a way as to keep to the objective, which in turn made me leave the Librarian exposed to one marker light. I failed to notice the Sniper Drones in range.

He got a marker on the librarian

He then got th Sniper drones with the accumulated bonuses to hit the librarian, and got a lot of mortal wounds.

 

Then, when I did my charge, it was just amazing rolls. 12 shots, 8 hits, 3 mortal wounds and 3 unsaved wounds. Absolutely barbaric.

[Panzer]

Yeah I've no doubt that the list did a lot of damage. I was just commenting on the amount of wounds the Sniper Drones dealt (tho with +2 to-hit and re-rolls 3 wounds against T4 Sv3+ is about average for 12 shots if you were within 24" for rapid fire). Especially on Overwatch. ^^

[Berzul]

I mean, yeah, luck was definetly a factor! Not saying it wasnt. But also saying it wasnt JUST luck.

[march10k]

• No power sword option. I'm fine with the glove but the fact to be obliged to pay for EVERY termi getting one is simply useless 1 or 2 per squad is enough, 4 is overkill. This raise the cost without giving more efficiency. DA are a sword-them chapter, we should have the option to play SB/PS termis

 

I would love this, but it might be a bit OP.  But, while we're wishing, I'll go ahead and beg for a single lightning claw paired with a stormbolter...IIRC, it's an option in 30k (combibolter, not stormbolter, but effectively the same thing)

[Endgame]

 

• No power sword option. I'm fine with the glove but the fact to be obliged to pay for EVERY termi getting one is simply useless 1 or 2 per squad is enough, 4 is overkill. This raise the cost without giving more efficiency. DA are a sword-them chapter, we should have the option to play SB/PS termis

 

I would love this, but it might be a bit OP.  But, while we're wishing, I'll go ahead and beg for a single lightning claw paired with a stormbolter...IIRC, it's an option in 30k (combibolter, not stormbolter, but effectively the same thing)

 

LC + Combi Bolter is an option for 40k Cataphractii.  It would be a nice option to have for all terminators, but I'm not sure it really makes or breaks them one way or another.

[march10k]

Given that fists are -1 to hit, I think lightning claws are probably the best melee weapon in 8th edition, being able to pair one with a gun is having it both ways.  JMHO. 

[sneakybamsen]

For the tasks terminators are to have, with -1 to hit, thunder hammers and powerfists are not exactly great. Of course, Belial makes a bigger impact on the 4+ compared to the 3+ roll, but even so lightning claws are looking cool as hell and do work. Powerswords seem to be more popular (ap-3 and low cost). But yes, I too wish we could have claw+sb loadout for other terminators than cataphractii. By the way, I orderer two boxes of tartaros the other day at a really good price from my FLGS (23$ cheaper than GW prices per box). So Deathwing is far from dead to me. Sunday I'll be fielding 10 idomitus pattern and Belial at least.

[Isual]

For the tasks terminators are to have, with -1 to hit, thunder hammers and powerfists are not exactly great. Of course, Belial makes a bigger impact on the 4+ compared to the 3+ roll, but even so lightning claws are looking cool as hell and do work. Powerswords seem to be more popular (ap-3 and low cost). But yes, I too wish we could have claw+sb loadout for other terminators than cataphractii. By the way, I orderer two boxes of tartaros the other day at a really good price from my FLGS (23$ cheaper than GW prices per box). So Deathwing is far from dead to me. Sunday I'll be fielding 10 idomitus pattern and Belial at least.

 

Belials impact stays the same because modifiers are counted in after re-rolls. You can still only re-roll 1s and 2s.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Such a bad mechanic

But true

[sneakybamsen]

 

For the tasks terminators are to have, with -1 to hit, thunder hammers and powerfists are not exactly great. Of course, Belial makes a bigger impact on the 4+ compared to the 3+ roll, but even so lightning claws are looking cool as hell and do work. Powerswords seem to be more popular (ap-3 and low cost). But yes, I too wish we could have claw+sb loadout for other terminators than cataphractii. By the way, I orderer two boxes of tartaros the other day at a really good price from my FLGS (23$ cheaper than GW prices per box). So Deathwing is far from dead to me. Sunday I'll be fielding 10 idomitus pattern and Belial at least.

 

Belials impact stays the same because modifiers are counted in after re-rolls. You can still only re-roll 1s and 2s.

 

 Yes, I forgot that just before posting. You're absolutely correct.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

• No power sword option. I'm fine with the glove but the fact to be obliged to pay for EVERY termi getting one is simply useless 1 or 2 per squad is enough, 4 is overkill. This raise the cost without giving more efficiency. DA are a sword-them chapter, we should have the option to play SB/PS termis

 

I would love this, but it might be a bit OP.  But, while we're wishing, I'll go ahead and beg for a single lightning claw paired with a stormbolter...IIRC, it's an option in 30k (combibolter, not stormbolter, but effectively the same thing)

Actually Deathwatch terminators DO have this option (as well as power axe)

And they have fearless

And mix and match

And may have until 3 heavy weapon

 

... And special ammunitions

 

 

*suddenly realizing I should use deathwatch codex to play deathwing* :blink:

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup, coz balance.

[lhavoc]

So what are our options?

 

We are:

Fearless

2+ Armour

5+/(4+ Cataphractii) Invulnerable

4-6" Movement (Depending)

Deep Strike (2nd Turn now, but we have dealt with that before)

 

Deathwing Terminators Stategems:

Deathwing Assault: (2/3 CP) Shoots on Entrance, then Shoots on Shooting Phase, then Assault?

Hunt the Fallen: (1 CP) Re-roll charges against a protected Character (gets you in to Fight range from 9"?), Re-roll hits in Fight against protected Character

Honor the Chapter: (3 CP) Fight again in Fight phase

Command Re-Roll: (1 CP) Get into Fight Range?

Fortress of Shields: (1 CP) -1 to wound rolls if unit has at least 3 Storm Shields

 

Deathwing Units:

Standard Terminators (in addition mixed assault/shooting squads)

Deathwing Knights (Great Mace & Storm Shields)

Cataphractii (Durable, slow Lightning Claw & Combi-Bolter?)

Tartaros (Faster)

 

So we have a lot of options for Deathwing, we just have to spend a lot of CP to make them work.

[solarisqc]

 

 

 

• No power sword option. I'm fine with the glove but the fact to be obliged to pay for EVERY termi getting one is simply useless 1 or 2 per squad is enough, 4 is overkill. This raise the cost without giving more efficiency. DA are a sword-them chapter, we should have the option to play SB/PS termis

 

I would love this, but it might be a bit OP.  But, while we're wishing, I'll go ahead and beg for a single lightning claw paired with a stormbolter...IIRC, it's an option in 30k (combibolter, not stormbolter, but effectively the same thing)

Actually Deathwatch terminators DO have this option (as well as power axe)

And they have fearless

And mix and match

And may have until 3 heavy weapon

 

... And special ammunitions

 

 

*suddenly realizing I should use deathwatch codex to play deathwing*

 

And Deathwatch bike have SIA, +1 attack and teleport homer for 2 extra point, losing jinx...

And you can put up to 3 Dreadnought in teleportarium for 1 CP each...

Take 5 deathwatch vet as a taxe and you can have 5 Terminator or 5 bike in troops (with objective secure)

 

My new plan for my DA armies is greenwing with Deathwatch support to represent the Deathwing and Ravenwing when need.

 

The release of Deathwatch codex was realy the last nail in the coffin for deathwing for me. I see no reason to play them now (except knight) they are just better count as Deathwatch.  

[sneakybamsen]

I had a league game yesterday against khorne daemons. My deathwing terminators unfortunately were destoyed by a 20 man unit of bloodletters, who managed their charge after deepstriking, but my opponent did roll rather well at that point, and I couldn't pass 5++ for the life of me. 5 terminators dead due to 6's on to wound, took another 9 wounds out of 11 at D1, in total managing 4/18 saves, so one terminator left at 1 wound after they had hit the unit. I lost the game, needless to say, but before that charge, they were bringing the pain on DWA with Belial.

 

Gonna have 2 more games with them in the league, then I'll see what's what. Probably won't bury them, even if they don't perform well, as they are so cool.

[march10k]

Personally, I'm not interested in paying deathwatch points to get things like three heavy weapons, more melee weapon options, telehomers on bikes, etc.  I don't think we need that level of a boost to become competitive.  Telehomers on the ravenwing, free DWA with -1 to hit (1CP to waive the penalty), fortress of shields working all the time, not just in one phase, and first turn deepstrike (since nobody else gets that privilege, we'd be more likely to catch an army NOT castled up the way everyone has been in the age of the alpha strike)...that would about do it for me.  

[sneakybamsen]

Deathwing assault with -1 to hit for free would be too good imho. Then 1 CP to remove the penalty would be even better. I think they would either make terminators more expensive and give it to every terminator then, or just make OUR terminators more expensive and give it to us, and to be brutally honest, I don't see terminator costs going up any further. They're already too expensive, but making them all shoot on deepstrike would make them far too good. No, what's needed is something else, more subtle. Besides, what would CC terminators and knights gain from firing upon deep striking? I'd be more prone to either giving them T5, making the stratagems cheaper, or giving them a third wound. I know they are veterans in different plating, but they just seem so lacklustre with the expensive powerfists and only two attacks each. Dual lightning claws make that three attacks without the -1 to hit, but then they won't arrive guns blazing and don't kill big scary things that well, though they do become slightly cheaper. Powerswords isn't very terminator-like, imho, and although we're a legion of blades in the fluff, I at least haven't seen or heard of deathwing with blades (except for sergeants/officers), so that wouldn't make sense to me. Should the 5++ become a 4++? Maybe. but cataphractii would then have to have something else about them, and I think 3++ base would be silly.

Making powerfists and thunderhammers not at -1 to hit would only work if it was on terminator armour only. But that wouldn't be deathwing specific of course. And then, would it make sense that a powerfist wielded by a veteran in TDA was more accurate than one wielded by say a Leviathan Dreadnought? if it was a general rule, we'd be back to nobs with klaws, powerfist/thunderhammers galore and so on in the blink of an eye. But then, with -1 to hit, they just feel too expensive at 12 points, to me at least.

 

TDA is not easy to fix, but something new would be nice. I'm probably mainly into T5 or 3W models.

[march10k]

Besides, what would CC terminators and knights gain from firing upon deep striking?

 

I'm in general agreement with most of what you said, but I'm actually okay with this bit.  Tactical terminators were left on the shelf for the last 15 years because stormbolters just didn't do anything useful, it was Thundernator or go home. So I'm more than happy for the stormbolters to have their day in the sun.  And it's not exactly like melee terminators don't have a place.  When I field two units of terminators, the second one is always knights.  They are still awesome, even without DWA dakka.  So I don't see a problem.

 

Thundernators are outshone by knights because of the unwieldy thing, but that's not a shooty/melee issue.  In fact, I actually like it that way.  Other marines get second-rate hammers, we get maces.  Because we're quite frankly better than them.  I know that new editions shift the balance around, but I'm seriously considering tearing the arms off of my thundernators to make more tactical terminators.  And buying more knights.  Because those are the two types that I value.  It's possible that thundernators could slightly edge out knights in a future edition, but not by enough of a margin that it makes sense to have both of them at $12 a model.  If anything, once I have 20 knights and 20 tactical terminators, the next box would be lightning claws.  As a nasty surprise for orks and nids.

[Berzul]

I insist on my idea:

 

Aside from maybe making Terminators across the board T5 (they should all be, really), I'd give them 1 save rerroll per phase per squad.

 

Just one. One rerroll on one failed save, per phase. It would be subtle, but would work on making them more survivable without being too overpowered; and in fact would achieve close to the same result as the use of command rerrolls, but freeing up the CP which is needed for Elite Armies.

 

Will not save you from wound saturation, but will make it more possible to survive that one laspistol shot that there is no way in fluff it should be killing you out of nowhere.

[Endgame]

For terminators, I like making them a 1+ save and adding a special rule to the armor where damage is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. It is a similar effect to adding a wound, however, so that might just be the way to go.

 

Honestly, if you went 1+ save, you might as well remove the 5+ invulnerable, as even a Melta would adjust the armor save to 5+. Is there anything with a ap -5 or greater?

[Berzul]

For terminators, I like making them a 1+ save and adding a special rule to the armor where damage is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. It is a similar effect to adding a wound, however, so that might just be the way to go.

 

 

I love that idea!

[Helycon]

For terminators, I like making them a 1+ save and adding a special rule to the armor where damage is reduced by 1 to a minimum of 1. It is a similar effect to adding a wound, however, so that might just be the way to go.

 

Honestly, if you went 1+ save, you might as well remove the 5+ invulnerable, as even a Melta would adjust the armor save to 5+. Is there anything with a ap -5 or greater?

 

Yes, Grav Flux Bombards and and Volcano Cannons at least!

[FlamingDeth]

I’ll be honest, if someone is shooting a volcano cannon at my infantry they deserve to get a kill, they earned it.