Future of semi competitive Dark Angels players after FAQ

[Trunkello]

Hi guys

BEFORE YOU READ :

- i am not a pure and good competitive player also really new to dark angels

- this is my first edition playing DA so i am not really interested in history lessons about older editions of DA. not trying to be rude or cocky but i feel that repeating how thing was in older editions will not progress our cause forward

- also i am not a native english speaker, so i am terribly sorry for any pas or future grammar mistakes

 

Since the FAQ came out i became very depressed since i just managed to create a standard army using both Deathwing and Ravenwing with some Greenwing support. The idea was Ravenwing launching forward with deepstriking DW as an alpha strike. Being an elite army i usually went first. Now that you cannot alpha strike with Deathwing i cant do it as Ravenwing unist will not wait for turn 2 for the boys to arrive.

So my thinking is: with the deep strike nerf will the (pure) dark angels meta shift towards the Ravenwing? As they can still make some good first turn charges with decent amount of anti horde and elite firepower following a charge. 9 RW bikers can dish out a ton of rapidfire boltshots with rerolls to hit and wound with the RW characters. I know that this is a huge points investment and a really elite army easily falling victim of a mortal wound spam but i am trying to find a way of playing my really expensive plastic babes withouth begging for my opponent to nerf his army. Last time i had great succes against a new necron list. I busted my tricks on first turn with deathwing assault and speed of the raven. My opponent was really taken back even though i only managed to kill 20 necron warriors and 5 immortals with that alpha.

So what do you guys think? I hope i can start a contructive discussion about our tactical future.

 

I also hope that our ordeal with being a not hard hitting codex will end when a new gathering storm event happens with a huge op fallen release with luther and us getting the lion back. Then we can be the key to defeat the fallen again

[Berzul]

Ravenwing has been the mostly-agreed best wing of the army so far, so yes. I expect even more players to shift more heavily towards the Ravenwing. We are becoming a bike-army, it seems...

[march10k]

My army has two elements.  Firebase and deepstrike.  A turn one deepstrike always did come with opportunity costs.  Everyone tends to deploy to survive an alpha.  So DSing on turn one really hits the enemy at his strongest.  Meanwhile, units dropped on turn one are dropped without seeing much, if any, of the enemy's plan unfold, and are therefore unavailable as a QRF.  That's not always good for the firebase.  Being forced to wait until turn two isn't all bad.  It shifts the opportunity cost calculation to the other player.  He has to weigh the benefits of decompressing to attack my firebase versus remaining in his shell pending a turn two drop, essentially "wasting" a turn trading long ranged fire.  Given that my firebase has eight twinlinked lascannons and plenty of bubble wrap, he'll likely chose to come out of his shell and start clearing a path to assault the firebase.  That explands the options that I have for my deepstrike.  On the other side of the equation, I can keep my scouts back a little on deployment to make it harder to reach them on turn one, then use turn one to push them out into their anti-deepstrike formation.  So it's a change, but it's neither good nor bad.

[ValourousHeart]

Ravenwing has been the mostly-agreed best wing of the army so far, so yes. I expect even more players to shift more heavily towards the Ravenwing. We are becoming a bike-army, it seems...

Fixed that for you.

 

 

 

Hi guys

BEFORE YOU READ :

- i am not a pure and good competitive player also really new to dark angels

- this is my first edition playing DA so i am not really interested in history lessons about older editions of DA. not trying to be rude or cocky but i feel that repeating how thing was in older editions will not progress our cause forward

- also i am not a native english speaker, so i am terribly sorry for any pas or future grammar mistakes

 

Since the FAQ came out i became very depressed since i just managed to create a standard army using both Deathwing and Ravenwing with some Greenwing support. The idea was Ravenwing launching forward with deepstriking DW as an alpha strike. Being an elite army i usually went first. Now that you cannot alpha strike with Deathwing i cant do it as Ravenwing unist will not wait for turn 2 for the boys to arrive.

So my thinking is: with the deep strike nerf will the (pure) dark angels meta shift towards the Ravenwing? As they can still make some good first turn charges with decent amount of anti horde and elite firepower following a charge. 9 RW bikers can dish out a ton of rapidfire boltshots with rerolls to hit and wound with the RW characters. I know that this is a huge points investment and a really elite army easily falling victim of a mortal wound spam but i am trying to find a way of playing my really expensive plastic babes withouth begging for my opponent to nerf his army. Last time i had great succes against a new necron list. I busted my tricks on first turn with deathwing assault and speed of the raven. My opponent was really taken back even though i only managed to kill 20 necron warriors and 5 immortals with that alpha.

So what do you guys think? I hope i can start a contructive discussion about our tactical future.

 

I also hope that our ordeal with being a not hard hitting codex will end when a new gathering storm event happens with a huge op fallen release with luther and us getting the lion back. Then we can be the key to defeat the fallen again

 

I'm not saying this to be mean, but it doesn't sound like you really had much of a strategy to begin with.  And I think that is evident by the fact that the minor change of not being able to deep strike into your opponent's deployment zone turn 1, completely derails your strategy.

 

I say minor because outside of the last year, you could never deep strike into your opponent's deployment zone on turn 1.

 

You should reconsider your stance on the past... strategies are not the same as game mechanics.  It is good to leave the game mechanics in the past.  But you really hamstring yourself if you are unwilling to study strategies.  Strategies cross not only armies and editions, they also cross game systems.

 

If you truly believe that that DA is NOT A HARD-HITTING CODEX, then you really should NOT change your list for at least 6 - 10 months, getting 1-2 games in a week against different armies.  If the codex is really that terrible, then trust your first impressions.  You picked those units because something in you said they were strong units.  Anything you pick now will just be you second-guessing yourself.

 

Continue to play that list until you have the rules and units down cold.  Playing against a verity of opponents and armies will require you to deal with different situations, and require you to find solutions to them with your existing tool bag.  After the 6-10 months re-assess your opinions about the quality of the codex, and the units in your list.

 

As an added benefit, after 6-10 months, you should also have that list painted.

[Berzul]

 

Ravenwing has been the mostly-agreed best wing of the army so far, so yes. I expect even more players to shift more heavily towards the Ravenwing. We are becoming a bike-army, it seems...

Fixed that for you.

 

 

 

Oh, thank you! :D

[Solrac]

Actually the most competitive Ravenwing units in terms of Tournament meta are Dark Talons, Dark Shrouds, Sammael and Talon Masters. Black Knights are still over costed and don't see them in many Tournament lists. If you are playing non tournament games a full Ravenwing Army with bikes will perform well and will be a lot of fun.

 

For a Dark Angels player attempting to battle it out in Tournaments and want to do well for ITC rankings you will have a mix of Greenwing/Ravenwing. Greenwing/Imperial Guard, Ravenwing/Imperial Guard or even all three. This is especially true now that the rule of 3 has been introduced in the latest FAQ.

 

I myself have had a lot of success with my Hellblaster/Azrael/Ancient gunline with 3 Dark Talon support. After the increase in cost of the Dark Talons I will be trading them in for Sammael on Sableclaw and two Talon Masters instead. This isn't all because of the points increase, rather that I can't seem to play the Flyers correctly and the points increase made my mind up to try something else.

 

In short Dark Angels Tournament meta never included Deathwing. The meta shift you will see is Dark Angels players taking less Dark Talons because of the rule of three, taking more Scouts because more troops to get objectives + more CP or you will see more Imperial Guard accompanying our best units.

[sneakybamsen]

Don't mean to be rude, but Deathwing (even before the FAQ) was really struggling to be even semi competitive. It might have helped with some ravenwing aspects, but it's never going to be that strong a force. Fluffy, but not really strong.

[march10k]

Don't mean to be rude, but Deathwing (even before the FAQ) was really struggling to be even semi competitive. It might have helped with some ravenwing aspects, but it's never going to be that strong a force. Fluffy, but not really strong.

And it's not because they're deathwing, it's because terminators in general aren't tournament-worthy.  We have a few things that make them less terrible, like DWK and the ability to give them +1A and twinlinking via Belial and his banna wava.  That sets them head and shoulders above other termies, and they're still not all that good.  I'm still going to keep ten tactical terminators with Belial in my list.  80 twinlinked shots on turn two, then 40 thereafter is just too much fun.  I don't really care if it's tournament-worthy.

[sneakybamsen]

I like that you field them, and I am considering bringing a full squad with Belial for a tournament this saturday (not that I'll stand a chance of winning with what I have in my collection anyways, no primaris is just crippling, so considering it for the fun of it).

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hi guys

BEFORE YOU READ :

- i am not a pure and good competitive player also really new to dark angels

- this is my first edition playing DA so i am not really interested in history lessons about older editions of DA. not trying to be rude or cocky but i feel that repeating how thing was in older editions will not progress our cause forward

- also i am not a native english speaker, so i am terribly sorry for any pas or future grammar mistakes

 

Since the FAQ came out i became very depressed since i just managed to create a standard army using both Deathwing and Ravenwing with some Greenwing support. The idea was Ravenwing launching forward with deepstriking DW as an alpha strike. Being an elite army i usually went first. Now that you cannot alpha strike with Deathwing i cant do it as Ravenwing unist will not wait for turn 2 for the boys to arrive.

So my thinking is: with the deep strike nerf will the (pure) dark angels meta shift towards the Ravenwing? As they can still make some good first turn charges with decent amount of anti horde and elite firepower following a charge. 9 RW bikers can dish out a ton of rapidfire boltshots with rerolls to hit and wound with the RW characters. I know that this is a huge points investment and a really elite army easily falling victim of a mortal wound spam but i am trying to find a way of playing my really expensive plastic babes withouth begging for my opponent to nerf his army. Last time i had great succes against a new necron list. I busted my tricks on first turn with deathwing assault and speed of the raven. My opponent was really taken back even though i only managed to kill 20 necron warriors and 5 immortals with that alpha.

So what do you guys think? I hope i can start a contructive discussion about our tactical future.

 

I also hope that our ordeal with being a not hard hitting codex will end when a new gathering storm event happens with a huge op fallen release with luther and us getting the lion back. Then we can be the key to defeat the fallen again

 

If i may advise, the way you make your list is spamming elite units rather than a balanced Combined Arms approach to be flexible in all situations. For me, you should ALWAYS have some greenwing even if your main core is Deathwing or Ravenwing. Always mix, never SPAM, which GW finally is starting to be consistent in bringing the nerf hammer.

 

Besides, the lack of Turn 1 deepstrike in enemy zone, ALSO works in your favour! Now your Ravenwing can deploy as forward as you can without worrying about ENEMY deepstrikers coming to backstab them from behind. And they won't be able to deploy close melta attacks on turn 1 as well if you are deploying deathwing via land raider.

 

Speaking as a Space Wolf player, I regard the Dark Angels with a great deal of dread and I've been on the receiving end a few times (generally they mix Green with Ravenwing), so please don't tell me that the DA are not a good codex. Your gunlines are exemplary, your characters are fantastic, even Samael and Belial brings something to a greenwing army, and your terminators, though suffering the same problem as all LOYALIST terminators, are still better and flexible than vanilla marines at least.

 

Your strategems....... ouch ouch and more ouch. And I'm not just talking about Weapons from the Dark Age. Firing after falling back? Advance and still shooting/charging?

 

Forgive me for being harsh, but you are not being objective in your analysis. You just take a look at one aspect of the FAQ, not even the whole, and immediately start complaining. As someone mentioned above, try your same list 3-4 times BEFORE deciding it, and even then, it could still be your list building thoughts.

[Hantheman]

All very valid points. I think Dark Angels have been a sleeper codex. They didn't have anything that looked obviously super-powerful (like Blood Angels had), it was all just fairly solid and unremarkable but with the FAQ protecting gunlines, we'll sneak up in strength.

 

Excite for your codex to come out, get some Lion and Wolf start action. Might pick up some Space Wolves when it drops for some fluffy fun!

[Kasper_Hawser]

All very valid points. I think Dark Angels have been a sleeper codex. They didn't have anything that looked obviously super-powerful (like Blood Angels had), it was all just fairly solid and unremarkable but with the FAQ protecting gunlines, we'll sneak up in strength.

 

Excite for your codex to come out, get some Lion and Wolf start action. Might pick up some Space Wolves when it drops for some fluffy fun!

 

Yeah the lack of codex update till now, that's a bit of a downer for me, but I'm happy enough with my current Index army. For awhile I asked my opponent to limit to the three basic BRB strategems, but gradually, I have now adapted my army (which is now predominantly MSU tactical marines with razorback transport/support plus Long Fangs/devastators) to be able to respond to most situations. Luckily I never spammed Thunderwolf back in 6-7th, so when 8th hit and TWC became overcosted AND weaker, I didn't suffer at all since my first love have always been the humble tactical marine or Grey Hunter as we call them on Fenris.

 

 

Can't win all of them, but at least I'm not being utterly smashed by full strategem armies anymore. Sigh, I keep repeating this mantra to myself: the wolftime will come, the wolftime will come, the wolftime will come, the wolftime will come, the wolftime will come.....

 

And yes, the Dark Angels may not SEEM overpowered, but seriously, you guys keep kicking bu t ts despite being a bunch of crossdressers. Sorry, can't venture into the DA forums without commenting on your dress code. Now I have to wait for the furry replies back to me. Point is, your codex is quietly stable and powerful despite no obvious cheese. Most stuff are costed evenly, everything is useful from veterans to vindicators (OK, vindicators suck but if you are lucky, can still kill a lot), and your SYNERGY between the wings are something to envy. May not be as flashy as the Blood Angels but then again, the Dark Angels have always been quiet about your glories.

 

I actually have a box of DA veterans in my collection which I bought on a whim to make some Fallen, but now I might actually use them as a small DA force to use the Lion and the Wolf Strategem. Going to be hard to synergize, but I guess another unit of Devastators or MSU in razorbacks is always useful to my force.

[Berzul]

I think the furry here is right. For the most part. Still wish we had better synergy between DW and RW. But, so far, I've failed as much as I've succedded with the codex, so it seems well and balanced to me.

 

I think the issue will always be that we are a weird force to balance. Blood Angels and Ultramarines have a more singular focus to their armies (not that they are one trick ponies, just that they have more focus), whilst our fantastic cross-dressing marines are split very clearly into very different forces by design.

[Hantheman]

Yeah, I'd take a squad of vets, a company champion and an interrogator chaplain- use him for the strat and go hunt some heretics! It may not win a tournament but it'll be fun!

[SnakeChisler]

Talons haven't gone up by that much that it makes a huge shift away, I'm with Solrac there hard to get the very best out of.

 

DA green / raven has been a consistent performer since the codex dropped

 

I run standard bikes and weight of bolter fire catches a lot of opponents out add ignores cover + twin link and dug in scout type units get hosed.

 

Options wise plasma inceptors are still a big deal even if there not on till t2

[march10k]

Options wise plasma inceptors are still a big deal even if there not on till t2

 

I understand the difference in value between a turn 1 kill and a turn 2 kill, and that's really the only loss here.  It's not like they're making it to the end of the game, they'll still be on the table the same amount of time in most games because they're such a high priority target.  And, as previously mentioned, there is some benefit in letting the enemy uncoil a little before you strike, so you're not picking at the outer, expendable, bits of a castle.  Assuming that the enemy doesn't waste turns (I hope they do!) staying in max protect bubble mode, you'll have better options on turn two than on turn one, offsetting the fact that you let the target live past turn one.

[Trunkello]

 

If i may advise, the way you make your list is spamming elite units rather than a balanced Combined Arms approach to be flexible in all situations. For me, you should ALWAYS have some greenwing even if your main core is Deathwing or Ravenwing. Always mix, never SPAM, which GW finally is starting to be consistent in bringing the nerf hammer.

 

 

I feel like i need to write down the list i used before everyone jumps on me as a noo good waac spammer.

I bought:

Sammel on corvex, RW Talonmaster as HQs

3x 5 intercessor

1 ravenwing biker squad with 8 man 3 with flamers and chainswords

1 deathwing tartaros termi squad with 10 men all with PF and SBs

1 10 men hellblaster squad

1 chapter ancient for the hellblasters and troops

1 darkshroud

1 RW Dark Talon

 

So as you can see i have more greenwing than elites. I just wanted to maximize my alphastrike as i knew that with so few units i will have the opening turn.

This is also the reason why i didnt worry about deepstrikes with my ravenwing. 80 boltershots from DW and 32 from the ravenwing with 3d6 flamer. The goal was to destroy his 2x20 necron warrior squad or else they would haunt me for the rest of the game.

[RayJ]

Deathwing and Dark Talons are the only things overly affected by the FAQ. Inceptors will still have targets on turn 2. Their main purpose was killing the specific stuff to keep the rest of your list alive for the major punch in turn 2.

 

If you want them to still have that use, they will want to be on the table, towards the front of your deployment zone, but out of line of sight.

[Solrac]

I don't see why people think Deathwing were affected so much by the T1 deepstrike nerf. For me they were always better waiting for Turn 3 as I'd have 2 turns to take out anti tank weapons with other elements of my army.

 

Deepstriking Termies turn 1 means they are dead turn 2 and you lose their fire power for 4 to 6 turns. When I deepstrike my Termies Turn 3 to put the pressure on late game most of the time the Termies would last until the end of the game only really losing 2 turns worth of shooting.

 

With proper deployment and using LOS blocking correctly you can easily last those two turns even against a shooting army. If your board doesn't have enough LOS blocking terrain you are playing the game wrong. LOS blocking is essential this edition which was different to 7th as in the past you had OP cover saves.

[RayJ]

The problem with Deathwing not being in for so long is that they're slow.and pay premium for those power fists. The more turns you're not using them, the more you're getting outmatched on the board.

 

In games where board presence and firepower in the first couple of turns sets up a win by turn 3, waiting until then to come in feels like a death wish.

 

And yes, some armies are slowed down, but there's still plenty of armies that already worked well and only got better with these changes.

[Solrac]

The problem with Deathwing not being in for so long is that they're slow.and pay premium for those power fists. The more turns you're not using them, the more you're getting outmatched on the board.

 

In games where board presence and firepower in the first couple of turns sets up a win by turn 3, waiting until then to come in feels like a death wish.

 

And yes, some armies are slowed down, but there's still plenty of armies that already worked well and only got better with these changes.

 

But that's what I am saying. You can't always think of it as "my opponent has 600pts more than me on the board right now" because that's essentially talking about games in a vacuum.

 

Knowing what your opponent is going to do to you is the key to playing the late game strat. If your opponent has mostly mid range weapons, deploy way out of range so it takes them two turns to get to you. Lots of ranged weapons? Deploy far enough away to try and make them move to makes those heavies -1 to hit and hide as much as you can out of LOS.

 

A lot of people talk about units having to make their points back by killing their points worth of models at a minimum. You can't think of 8th that way, it's not the same game as it used to be.

 

If holding my 10 Terminators in reserve until Turn 3 makes my opponent either

a. turtle and not come after the rest of my army because they are waiting to see where the Terminators go, or

b. rush after my army but, they have to move as I am out of LOS and that puts them out of position

 

I would say that is points well spent because in scenario A I will continue to score points keeping up with my opponent and we are on equal footing as we were at the start of the game (however he has less turns to kill my terminators and rest of my army) and in scenario B my Terminators will cause more havoc to his army hitting them when they are out of position rather than just messing up the bubble wrap they don't care about.

 

The only thing I think throws a spanner in the works is assault armies that will be in your face early which you can counter by having a couple of mobile elements in your army in case you need the Terminators to clear out those assault elements.

 

To me a 10 man Terminator squad is more valuable to come in late, play mind games with your opponent, doing damage and then being an unmovable object sitting on an objective for the rest of the game that your opponent won't want to assault rather than coming in Turn 1 kill bubble wrap and have a 27% chance to make a 9" charge (just under 50% with a command re-roll).

 

Now I'm not saying that my style of play is for everyone and it can be hard to pull off, but, I think it is the better option than T1 terminators because you can or that's the only way other people play them.

 

This game is still heavily dependent on how well you deploy your army and this is the part that not a lot of people master.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

If i may advise, the way you make your list is spamming elite units rather than a balanced Combined Arms approach to be flexible in all situations. For me, you should ALWAYS have some greenwing even if your main core is Deathwing or Ravenwing. Always mix, never SPAM, which GW finally is starting to be consistent in bringing the nerf hammer.

 

 

I feel like i need to write down the list i used before everyone jumps on me as a noo good waac spammer.

I bought:

Sammel on corvex, RW Talonmaster as HQs

3x 5 intercessor

1 ravenwing biker squad with 8 man 3 with flamers and chainswords

1 deathwing tartaros termi squad with 10 men all with PF and SBs

1 10 men hellblaster squad

1 chapter ancient for the hellblasters and troops

1 darkshroud

1 RW Dark Talon

 

So as you can see i have more greenwing than elites. I just wanted to maximize my alphastrike as i knew that with so few units i will have the opening turn.

This is also the reason why i didnt worry about deepstrikes with my ravenwing. 80 boltershots from DW and 32 from the ravenwing with 3d6 flamer. The goal was to destroy his 2x20 necron warrior squad or else they would haunt me for the rest of the game.

 

 

Sorry for the harsh note, thankfully now that you post your list, we can be more clinical in our analysis rather than guess what you were bringing.

 

Don't have much time, but for now I'll comment that your alpha strike doesn't have enough bite with just storm bolters on Turn 1. It's actually more suited for Turn 2 deepstriking, preferably after your big guns have taken down some of the enemy...

 

... except your big guns is only the Hellblasters and the Dark Talon. Depending on the enemy or how you deploy, your hellblasters may not get enough shots off on Turn 1 due to their 30" range, or if you go second, the hellblasters might killed.

 

Actually the prpblem may not be your list, I think it actually has a lot of potential if you deploy and counter attack properly. I think I'l leave it to your other crossdressing brethren to advise you further. For now, in regards to your OP, I do not think the change to Deepstrike rules has actually hurt your Deathwing element at all. You've got a lot of teeth, it's just that you need to know WHERE and WHEN to bite.

 

Guys, try to advise him on what I call AGGRO management.... making sure his opponent has multiple threats.

[ValourousHeart]

Always mix, never SPAM, which GW finally is starting to be consistent in bringing the nerf hammer.

 

I feel like i need to write down the list i used before everyone jumps on me as a noo good waac spammer.

 

I feel it should be clarified that there is a big difference between SPAM and Themed Armies that focus on very few units types.

 

The SPAM list is about building an under-costed, over-powered unit with an annoyance gimmick... and then cramming as many copies of that unit into a list as you can.

Think Hive Tyrants, Poxwalkers, Deamon Princes and the like.

SPAM lists don't make sense fluff-wise, because Hive Tyrants lead armies of Nids... they don't go into battle by themselves without their army with them.

 

Themed lists make sense fluff-wise even when they have very little diversity of units.

Ravenwing and Deathwing tend toward fluff lists, even in pure form, in most cases.

 

 

Sammel on corvex, RW Talonmaster as HQs

3x 5 intercessor

1 ravenwing biker squad with 8 man 3 with flamers and chainswords

1 deathwing tartaros termi squad with 10 men all with PF and SBs

1 10 men hellblaster squad

1 chapter ancient for the hellblasters and troops

1 darkshroud

1 RW Dark Talon

Hmm... I feel that the issue you are having is because your list is actually too diverse.

You probably don't need both Corvex and the Talonmaster.

And you probably don't need both the Dark Talon and the Darkshroud.

Every important unit you have is essentially a vehicle.

 

Either your Shroud is going to be camping next to your infantry giving them extra cover or it is going to be chasing the bikes.

You would probably be better served by a Lieutenant next to your infantry or a second bike squad to benefit from the Shroud.

Even though the Shroud has rules to make it hard to kill, with its slow speed and lack of character status, it is likely not going to last long.

 

Keeping most of your list the same I would make the following changes.

Drop Corvex, his benefit to the RW is minimal in this list with only one squad, and his benefit to the rest of your list is redundant with your chapter tactic.

Drop the Darkshroud in favor of a Lieutenant, that gives you the second HQ at a much cheaper price tag than Corvex, and gives more of a benefit to your gun-line units.

 

With the leftover points, you could add more Intercessors, Hellblasters, RW or DW.

My preference would be for a couple of HB/AC speeders, they would be great wingmen to the Talonmaster.

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ Valorousheart - A quick note, I think his list should stay the same, except he needs to split his big blob of bikes, terminators and Hellblasters into two squads. This will give his opponent headache as he has to allocate firepower to multiple targets, rather than just one big blob. Hence what I mentioned earlier, Aggro management.

 

Sammael is quite useful in the sense he is fast, still buffs regular greenwing with reroll 1s, and can zoom anywhere on battlefield for objective grabbing or support whichever unit needs it, whether it is the deathwing or the bikes or the backline hellblasters, even keep up with the Dark Talon for some much needed rerolls.

 

Oh yeah those Tartaros Power fists? Get rid of them, lightning claws and add a sprinkling of plasma blasters and volkites is better and cheaper. Only bring Powerfists if you have Belial.

 

Leftover, as Valourousheart mentioned, another source of rerolls. Maybe instead of flamers, give them plasma or meltas.

[ValourousHeart]

@ Valorousheart - A quick note, I think his list should stay the same, except he needs to split his big blob of bikes, terminators and Hellblasters into two squads. This will give his opponent headache as he has to allocate firepower to multiple targets, rather than just one big blob. Hence what I mentioned earlier, Aggro management.

 

Sammael is quite useful in the sense he is fast, still buffs regular greenwing with reroll 1s, and can zoom anywhere on battlefield for objective grabbing or support whichever unit needs it, whether it is the deathwing or the bikes or the backline hellblasters, even keep up with the Dark Talon for some much needed rerolls.

 

Oh yeah those Tartaros Power fists? Get rid of them, lightning claws and add a sprinkling of plasma blasters and volkites is better and cheaper. Only bring Powerfists if you have Belial.

 

Leftover, as Valourousheart mentioned, another source of rerolls. Maybe instead of flamers, give them plasma or meltas.

 

On your first point were are essentially saying the same thing, we are just getting there in a different way.  You want him to split the 10 man teams into two  5 man teams.  I'm saying take the points from dropping some units that are not optimal in the rest of the list and spend those points on more copies of the units that are optimal.  So we both want him to have more of the infantry units.

 

His army is battle forged DA and so has Grim Resolve.  In order for Corvex to give the reroll of 1s, he has to be within 6 inches of a GW unit that moved.  Any turn they don't move is a turn he doesn't need to be near them because they have Grim Resolve.  And any turn they do move, it will only be 6 inches, and his speed is wasted because a captain stationed nearby could do the same thing with fewer points.

 

Corvex moves 14 inches a turn, the Dark Talon moves 20-40 inches a turn.  Corvex will not be keeping up with the Dark Talon unless you hover.  Hoving removes a lot of the protections the Dark Talon has and is not advisable if you want it to be a headache unit.

 

But really my concern is the makeup of the RW portion of the list which accounts for 50% of his points.   The rest of the list is essentially a boat anchor that requires the RW portion to pull back and play defense.  But the RW units that he picked are exclusively for playing aggressively.

 

Trunkello could try running the RW half in a smaller game and then run the other half of his list in another game to get a better feel for how the 2 halves perform.  Then he could make tweaks according to the results of those games.

 

I think he'll find in the GW/DW game that he starts making different choices on where to teleport the DW because he knows that the GW won't be able to get there if they are dropped in too remote of an area.

 

I know in the RW game he'll find that 1000 point game is too small to run Corvex, Talonmaster, a Darkshroud and a Dark Talon.  And he should draw some parallels for why that smaller list doesn't perform well with problems he faced in the larger game.