Preparing for the Worst: Dealing with the new FAQ

[durdle-durdle]

and if it is valid to place people on the very edge using wobbly model as the reason why it’s okay, how do you figure out that footprint? There’s no way I can hold 15 death company in place with my hands to figure out if they can all fit on the lip of a building. I think a simple solution for multi story buildings is to allow units in the level below count as base to base with their enemy so long as they roll enough to make the 3” up. So if I don’t roll high enough to go up enough levels in a ruin I’m not in combat. If I roll high enough, whatever I can fit in b2b and the level below are my fighters.

[brother_b]

So one of the guys at my legs is saying he believes if any piece of your base can be placed on the level of the ruin, you can put it there. Meaning the opponent would have to cover the entirety of the level and be hanging off a bit so you can’t clip the edge of the level. But if you can touch even .000001” of the level, your model is there.

 

Is that right?

 

Doesn't wobbly model syndrome also apply? If you find a piece that could hold your model, but you don't want it to drop on the floor if the table is bumped you can set it there "counts as" and use the wobbly model rule.

[The Unseen]

The rulebook FAQ over rules "wobbly" entirely.

If you can't fit your model up there and have it actually stay, the charge fails.

[brother_b]

The rulebook FAQ over rules "wobbly" entirely.

If you can't fit your model up there and have it actually stay, the charge fails.

 

Well there you go then.

 

 

What about ideas for tactics:

 

Time to charge the DC flying captain model equipped with the jump pack relic and using (sorry forgot the name) the first turn DC stratagem.

 

Now, this would take a lot of finesse, and would require sufficient LOS blocking terrain, but I'm really thinking that the captain would be able to get into a gun line where DS troops wouldn't. In the event the enemy takes first turn you can use your move to put your captain into safety, either eliminating or reducing the amount of incoming fire he'll take the first round.

 

In the event you get first turn, you can pick and choose your targets, placing yourself in position to hopefully engage multiple units. I see this being the most effective in trapping units that have been set up far in the back field, such as manticores, etc.

 

Turn two you can land your DC/SG, other deepstrikers and already have a captain rampaging in the rear, who is unable to be targeted by overwatch. Even sacrificing the captain first turn might allow us time to move in our deepstrikers.

 

I don't know, just thoughts.

[Panzer]

Guys ... the FAQ entry clearly clarifies that wobbly model does NOT create additional space to place your models. If it doesn't fit it doesn't fit. Period. All wobbly model does is virtually flatten the terrain so the model doesn't tip over due its center of mass.

 

Could you place the model there if that levelnof terrain were flat? If yes, great! Wobbly model applies. If no because there's simply not enough space to fit the base, then no, wobbly model does not apply.

[Xenith]

In all seriousness, the issue exists and just blowing it off is kind of unfair to people. It's a problem for someone and that is enough NOT to dismiss their concerns.

 

Do we have evidence of this happening in a tournament environment yet, or is it another case of "the sky is falling"?

 

Positioning your models to block your opponents movement is neither new nor an auto-win tactic. Adapt. Overcome.

 

As we have seen, and what people don't seem to realise, is that if it becomes a serious or perceived issue in games, GW will change it.

[Xerxus]

Imagine how ridiculous it would look if a unit of Death Company could not assault a unit of Chaos Cultists simply because they were standing close to each other and filling the top floor of a ruined building. Just picture that in your head for a moment. I know that this is a game and it needs rules, but at no point should rules be allowed to break immersion to this extent.

[Panzer]

It's an abstract rule. No point in pictureing that in your head. It's even more ridiculous if you imagine it with Magnus instead of Deathcompany and compare it with the fact that a Rhino CAN charge the same unit because there you measure from the hull to the base.

 

I honestly think such things could be 'fixed' (I honestly don't think it's that broken) by simply measuring distances from the actual model instead of the base. We already have true line of sight and vehicles where you measure from the hull, so modelling for advantage shouldn't be as much of an issue as some people fear.

[Ekfud]

Do I recall something from the 96 necromunda rules that a model falling physically off a walkway took wounds?

 

There was definitely something about injured dudes randomly scattering off terrain too.

 

Actually kind of miss some of that randomness of damage tables and events.

[Panzer]

Something like that only really works in skirmish style games with few models but not for bigger games like 40k.

[Ekfud]

Yeah the falling and stuff definitely for skirmish.

 

But 2nd ed 40k vehicle cards were hugely entertaining. Nothing like having an out of control tank wipe out 2 friendly squads, finish off a dreadnought which also goes catastrophic. Always made for memorable games.

[Xenith]

Imagine how ridiculous it would look if a unit of Death Company could not assault a unit of Chaos Cultists simply because they were standing close to each other and filling the top floor of a ruined building. Just picture that in your head for a moment. I know that this is a game and it needs rules, but at no point should rules be allowed to break immersion to this extent.

 

Imagine how ridiculous it would be if your entire army couldn't kill enough cultists in the shooting phase to make space for a single 32 mm base in that ruin.

 

10 bolt pistols is 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 - 3 dead cultists = space for the DC.  

 

In the worst case, use your head:

1. Clear space for 1 DC. 1 death co piles in and attacks.
2. Cultists pile in and attack, making space.
3. Use fight again stratagem
4. The rest of the Death co get to pile into the opened space and attack. 
5. Wonder why you're using death company to kill cultists again?

[Damon Nightman]

I think its ridiculous how we devolve so easily as a community over this stuff and go after eachother. Like clearly the sky isnt falling, but at the same time this does change things and some of us have actual concerns that maybe shouldnt dismiss so easily? Just a thought...

 

I expect a lot better from some of you (and better arguements too at least if you are going to be so dismissive) ;)

[Panzer]

All I can say is that I've always played it like that (if your model with base can't fit on a level of a ruin, it can't be placed there) and it never really caused any serious issues. None of my or my opponents units were really immune to anything unless they got ignored the whole game until the charge attempt.

It's really not an issue and for many not even a change since RAW wobbly model never allowed you to balance models on the edge of some terrain with just 10% of their base etc.

[The Unseen]

 

Imagine how ridiculous it would look if a unit of Death Company could not assault a unit of Chaos Cultists simply because they were standing close to each other and filling the top floor of a ruined building. Just picture that in your head for a moment. I know that this is a game and it needs rules, but at no point should rules be allowed to break immersion to this extent.

 

Imagine how ridiculous it would be if your entire army couldn't kill enough cultists in the shooting phase to make space for a single 32 mm base in that ruin.

 

10 bolt pistols is 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 - 3 dead cultists = space for the DC.  

 

In the worst case, use your head:

1. Clear space for 1 DC. 1 death co piles in and attacks.
2. Cultists pile in and attack, making space.
3. Use fight again stratagem
4. The rest of the Death co get to pile into the opened space and attack. 
5. Wonder why you're using death company to kill cultists again?

 

 

1. You could, depending on the shape of the level in question and your opponents competency level, kill multiple cultists and still not have space for a 32mm base to actually fit. Also becomes much harder if you don't possess the FLY keyword, and therefore can't move through enemy models. What was that whole spiel about daemons getting :cussed over by this stupid rule? Ohh yeah. That.

2. You don't actually have to move when you pile in, you can move anywhere from 0" to 3". So a smart opponent would leave his models exactly as is, maybe shuffle some guys around to block off as much space as possible after you killed a few.

3. Congrats, you just spent 2 CP to possibly murder cultists. Great usage there.

4. Depending on circumstance, but the DC probably murder the cultists, but since they were so packed in there, you can't maneuver effectively enough to tri-lock a cultist even if you didn't turn them into mulch or have the tri-locked guys pulled out for morale, leaving your DC open to the cultists (if they still exist) to falling back, and your DC being blown off the board. And you probably aren't even getting cover.

 

 

Instead, how about you go with, just as an example, any basic daemon unit that isn't Tzeentch. Guess what, you don't have a gun on anything but a very limited selection of units, so sending some of your precious little shooting at a squad hiding in a ruin just to make room for a unit of daemons that should rightly tear said unit to shreds is terribly inefficient, and may not even be successful since most of your guys don't have the FLY keyword, or if they do also have very large bases. So now your blob of bloodletters or daemon prince gets to stand at the bottom of a ruin and eat another round of shooting, since they couldn't haul their fat asses up 3 inches. Have fun.

 

See? You aren't the only person who can come up with overblown fictional scenarios just to blow holes in it. It's called strawmanning.

 

Also sfpanzer, saying it hasn't been an issue for you or your group is all well and good, except that your experiences don't automatically make it the same for anyone else. I literally lost a game last week to eldar over not being able to tri-lock a unit of reapers+farseer+warlocks perched on an itty bitty ruined building, and that was with my opponent giving me a pretty lax "wobbly model" style of placing my guys. (some metal jumpacks meant that having a base be 75% on the wall wasn't enough to keep my model in place in one case, but we waved it away) But he had placed properly, I barely managed to get up there at all, since a unit with a 2+ armor save and 5++ fnp is pretty hard to shoot through with bolters, and it wasn't till I turned my devs at them I made a hole big enough for 2 32mm bases. So I sent my 2 hammer wielders up, and they managed to kill the farseer, opening up enough room for another 2 guys to just barely squeeze in, again with generous wobbly handwaivium. I then fought again, he rolled pretty hot for his warlocks saves, and I think he only lost 1 reaper, from some very poor rolling on my part. I couldn't consolidate anywhere to lock around a model, though I did get to pile in far enough to make it within an 1" of a second unit of reapers. His turn, everything falls back, and between some mind bullets and the 1 cp strat to let a unit fire after falling back, DC were wiped in short order. (Doomed Death Company don't live long vs 5 guided reapers, executioner, and smite)

 

Without that bit of leeway my opponent gave me, which now rules as written I won't have, I probably wouldn't have even MADE it up there at all, and definitely wouldn't have been able to even attempt locking a model in combat with how little room I had to maneuver, compared to almost succeeding.

 

This change, while probably not "sky is falling" levels of broken, is still going to actively punish melee heavy armies in some circumstances. I'd say if anything, everybody just brushing it off as no big deal aren't actually thinking it through from the point of view of armies with very limited shooting options,armies without easy access to FLY, or both, and are the ones being pretty disrespectful by not even engaging with the idea it might be a bad rule.

[Damon Nightman]

 

 

 

 

Imagine how ridiculous it would look if a unit of Death Company could not assault a unit of Chaos Cultists simply because they were standing close to each other and filling the top floor of a ruined building. Just picture that in your head for a moment. I know that this is a game and it needs rules, but at no point should rules be allowed to break immersion to this extent.

Imagine how ridiculous it would be if your entire army couldn't kill enough cultists in the shooting phase to make space for a single 32 mm base in that ruin.

 

10 bolt pistols is 6 hits, 4 wounds, 2 - 3 dead cultists = space for the DC.

 

In the worst case, use your head:

• Clear space for 1 DC. 1 death co piles in and attacks.
• Cultists pile in and attack, making space.
• Use fight again stratagem
• The rest of the Death co get to pile into the opened space and attack.
• Wonder why you're using death company to kill cultists again?

1. You could, depending on the shape of the level in question and your opponents competency level, kill multiple cultists and still not have space for a 32mm base to actually fit. Also becomes much harder if you don't possess the FLY keyword, and therefore can't move through enemy models. What was that whole spiel about daemons getting :cuss over by this stupid rule? Ohh yeah. That.

2. You don't actually have to move when you pile in, you can move anywhere from 0" to 3". So a smart opponent would leave his models exactly as is, maybe shuffle some guys around to block off as much space as possible after you killed a few.

3. Congrats, you just spent 2 CP to possibly murder cultists. Great usage there.

4. Depending on circumstance, but the DC probably murder the cultists, but since they were so packed in there, you can't maneuver effectively enough to tri-lock a cultist even if you didn't turn them into mulch or have the tri-locked guys pulled out for morale, leaving your DC open to the cultists (if they still exist) to falling back, and your DC being blown off the board. And you probably aren't even getting cover.

 

 

Instead, how about you go with, just as an example, any basic daemon unit that isn't Tzeentch. Guess what, you don't have a gun on anything but a very limited selection of units, so sending some of your precious little shooting at a squad hiding in a ruin just to make room for a unit of daemons that should rightly tear said unit to shreds is terribly inefficient, and may not even be successful since most of your guys don't have the FLY keyword, or if they do also have very large bases. So now your blob of bloodletters or daemon prince gets to stand at the bottom of a ruin and eat another round of shooting, since they couldn't haul their fat asses up 3 inches. Have fun.

 

See? You aren't the only person who can come up with overblown fictional scenarios just to blow holes in it. It's called strawmanning.

 

Also sfpanzer, saying it hasn't been an issue for you or your group is all well and good, except that your experiences don't automatically make it the same for anyone else. I literally lost a game last week to eldar over not being able to tri-lock a unit of reapers+farseer+warlocks perched on an itty bitty ruined building, and that was with my opponent giving me a pretty lax "wobbly model" style of placing my guys. (some metal jumpacks meant that having a base be 75% on the wall wasn't enough to keep my model in place in one case, but we waved it away) But he had placed properly, I barely managed to get up there at all, since a unit with a 2+ armor save and 5++ fnp is pretty hard to shoot through with bolters, and it wasn't till I turned my devs at them I made a hole big enough for 2 32mm bases. So I sent my 2 hammer wielders up, and they managed to kill the farseer, opening up enough room for another 2 guys to just barely squeeze in, again with generous wobbly handwaivium. I then fought again, he rolled pretty hot for his warlocks saves, and I think he only lost 1 reaper, from some very poor rolling on my part. I couldn't consolidate anywhere to lock around a model, though I did get to pile in far enough to make it within an 1" of a second unit of reapers. His turn, everything falls back, and between some mind bullets and the 1 cp strat to let a unit fire after falling back, DC were wiped in short order. (Doomed Death Company don't live long vs 5 guided reapers, executioner, and smite)

 

Without that bit of leeway my opponent gave me, which now rules as written I won't have, I probably wouldn't have even MADE it up there at all, and definitely wouldn't have been able to even attempt locking a model in combat with how little room I had to maneuver, compared to almost succeeding.

 

This change, while probably not "sky is falling" levels of broken, is still going to actively punish melee heavy armies in some circumstances. I'd say if anything, everybody just brushing it off as no big deal aren't actually thinking it through from the point of view of armies with very limited shooting options,armies without easy access to FLY, or both, and are the ones being pretty disrespectful by not even engaging with the idea it might be a bad rule.

Thank you sir!

[Panzer]

 

Also sfpanzer, saying it hasn't been an issue for you or your group is all well and good, except that your experiences don't automatically make it the same for anyone else. I literally lost a game last week to eldar over not being able to tri-lock a unit of reapers+farseer+warlocks perched on an itty bitty ruined building, and that was with my opponent giving me a pretty lax "wobbly model" style of placing my guys. (some metal jumpacks meant that having a base be 75% on the wall wasn't enough to keep my model in place in one case, but we waved it away) But he had placed properly, I barely managed to get up there at all, since a unit with a 2+ armor save and 5++ fnp is pretty hard to shoot through with bolters, and it wasn't till I turned my devs at them I made a hole big enough for 2 32mm bases. So I sent my 2 hammer wielders up, and they managed to kill the farseer, opening up enough room for another 2 guys to just barely squeeze in, again with generous wobbly handwaivium. I then fought again, he rolled pretty hot for his warlocks saves, and I think he only lost 1 reaper, from some very poor rolling on my part. I couldn't consolidate anywhere to lock around a model, though I did get to pile in far enough to make it within an 1" of a second unit of reapers. His turn, everything falls back, and between some mind bullets and the 1 cp strat to let a unit fire after falling back, DC were wiped in short order. (Doomed Death Company don't live long vs 5 guided reapers, executioner, and smite)

 

Without that bit of leeway my opponent gave me, which now rules as written I won't have, I probably wouldn't have even MADE it up there at all, and definitely wouldn't have been able to even attempt locking a model in combat with how little room I had to maneuver, compared to almost succeeding.

 

This change, while probably not "sky is falling" levels of broken, is still going to actively punish melee heavy armies in some circumstances. I'd say if anything, everybody just brushing it off as no big deal aren't actually thinking it through from the point of view of armies with very limited shooting options,armies without easy access to FLY, or both, and are the ones being pretty disrespectful by not even engaging with the idea it might be a bad rule.

 

 

It's still better than what others are doing. Aka not having played like that at all so far but preaching the sky is falling.

 

Also about your example. Yeah that sucks but things like that happen from time to time. I also once faced a unit I barely could kill since there was a very tall piece of terrain partly in my opponents deployment zone so he placed the unit there and none of my units had enough movement to get up there (it was a game without FLY units).

 

Look, I'm not saying that the clarification (it really is not a change) isn't affecting melee armies at all. But it really isn't a game changer.

[MeltaRange]

The rulebook FAQ over rules "wobbly" entirely.

If you can't fit your model up there and have it actually stay, the charge fails.

 

The intent of wobbly model is not "oh I can fit .00001mm of my base somewhere, but if I let it go it will fall!"...it's more like "the base should fit here, but if I actually place it there, it might tip over because of uneven terrain."

[Xenith]

 

See? You aren't the only person who can come up with overblown fictional scenarios just to blow holes in it. It's called strawmanning.

 

This whole thread is based on how to counter overblown fictional scenarios. No need to get aggressive, we're all friends here 

 

Below is a long blown out response that I typed, but don't really want to post, but don't want to have wasted my time in typing it. Read if you like. 

 

Things to consider:

 

1) This isn't going to crop up in every game

 

2) If it does, change terrain, gentleman's agreement, bring more shooty stuff, whatever.

 

3a) It's in the core 8th ed rulebook that you have to finish the charge within 1" of an enemy model otherwise it's a failed charge. Nothing has changed here. If you haven't been able to place the model you haven't been able to charge.

 

3b) It's been in the rules since 3rd ed that you have to be able to place a model in B2B, or within 1" when there is a barricade between. It's always been difficult to get the charge off against a full roof of guys. I don't see why this is such a big deal now. Have people only just realised these are the rules?

 

As for tri-locking: You're upset that that highly specific, context sensitive movement and positioning based rules exploit doesn't work in every scenario?

 

 

This change, while probably not "sky is falling" levels of broken, is still going to actively punish melee heavy armies in some circumstances. I'd say if anything, everybody just brushing it off as no big deal aren't actually thinking it through from the point of view of armies with very limited shooting options,armies without easy access to FLY, or both, and are the ones being pretty disrespectful by not even engaging with the idea it might be a bad rule.

 

Glad we can agree the sky isn't falling  Personally, I'm looking at it from the Blood Angels point of view, this being the BA sub-forum and all. Discussion on the wider implications of this rule are perhaps better suited to Amicus, or the faction specific sub-forum.

[Deadnaughty]

Mildly rocky terrain is no problem since you can place your model, you just don't because of Wobbly model syndrome.

 

You can't place your base in a 0.001 mm area of the top floor and leave the rest dangling in space so Wobbly model does not apply.

[Arkhanist]

Clearing urban buildings of armed opposition is something that real militaries and armed police have to do. They don't go, "Oh, the first floor is occupied, we'll have to shoot enough of them through the windows before we can go up there." CQC is tight, nasty and exactly what the assault phase is supposed to represent.

 

The simplest option would be to allow assault to ignore vertical distances; say ignore up to 6" of vertical distance when calculating if you're within 1", or unlimited vertical distance if you can FLY (representing dropping in from above). So you can realistically charge into the ground floor and attack the first of ruins, but you can't do the same from the top of a tall tower to the bottom without FLY - without massively changing existing systems.

[Bremon]

A tank also doesn’t draw its LOS and shoot shells from an antenna, or tank tread like it can in 40k. “Logic” has very little place in this game. If it did, we would be playing a game with alternating activation.

[Panzer]

Clearing urban buildings of armed opposition is something that real militaries and armed police have to do. They don't go, "Oh, the first floor is occupied, we'll have to shoot enough of them through the windows before we can go up there." CQC is tight, nasty and exactly what the assault phase is supposed to represent.

 

The simplest option would be to allow assault to ignore vertical distances; say ignore up to 6" of vertical distance when calculating if you're within 1", or unlimited vertical distance if you can FLY (representing dropping in from above). So you can realistically charge into the ground floor and attack the first of ruins, but you can't do the same from the top of a tall tower to the bottom without FLY - without massively changing existing systems.

 

No that's not what the assault phase represents. The assault phase is literally hand to hand combat or else you could use your ranged weapons there.

What you're talking about is still in the shooting phase but up to 6" or so (aka Marine Scout Shotguns, T'au Breacher Pulse Blaster).

 

I'd rather change it so that the distance for the 1" gets measured from model to model instead of from base to base. Some people might have concerns about modeling for advantage, however we already use true line of sight anyway and with vehicles you already measure from the hull as well.

[Kappel]

 

The rulebook FAQ over rules "wobbly" entirely.

If you can't fit your model up there and have it actually stay, the charge fails.

 

Well there you go then.

 

 

What about ideas for tactics:

 

Time to charge the DC flying captain model equipped with the jump pack relic and using (sorry forgot the name) the first turn DC stratagem.

 

Now, this would take a lot of finesse, and would require sufficient LOS blocking terrain, but I'm really thinking that the captain would be able to get into a gun line where DS troops wouldn't. In the event the enemy takes first turn you can use your move to put your captain into safety, either eliminating or reducing the amount of incoming fire he'll take the first round.

 

In the event you get first turn, you can pick and choose your targets, placing yourself in position to hopefully engage multiple units. I see this being the most effective in trapping units that have been set up far in the back field, such as manticores, etc.

 

Turn two you can land your DC/SG, other deepstrikers and already have a captain rampaging in the rear, who is unable to be targeted by overwatch. Even sacrificing the captain first turn might allow us time to move in our deepstrikers.

 

I don't know, just thoughts.

 

You can greatly improve the survivability of the Captain by pre-planning with your deployment of Scouts, so that when the Cap. uses Forlorns Fury he lands, in a bubble wrap of Scouts in the middle of the table. I have used this strategy several times with succes. 2 Scouts in Ruins, protecting a Captain can actually take quite a lot of firepower.

[SM1981]

It's strange, because I can't help but feel this "BIG" FAQ was actually kinda small and that really is just a bit of a test bed for when we get the real picture - Chapter Approved.

 

I think we'll see things like Land Raiders get cheaper, new Drop Pod rules and other such things around then.

Exactly this.