Preparing for the Worst: Dealing with the new FAQ

[SM1981]

Overall, this pushes things back towards previous editions where deepstrikers came on from T2. It was never an issue then, and if the rule had been this way from the start, we wouldn't have the uproar we do now.

 

In all, I agree with the changes, especially with the charge from deepstrike option, even though it hurts my armies and benefits gunlines. I think they're better for the game.

 

Deepstrike and shoot anywhere on the table returns us to the Eldar null deploy lists of 4th ed that started 100% off board, and used 2 Autarchs to bring in all units T2 on a 2+. The highly mobile firepower coupled with the opponent losing a turn of shooting was massively powerful and pretty much broke the game.

 

Remember that while we lose something, most, if not all other armies lose something too - check out their relevant complaint threads.. Now we need to protect the units on the board, while prepping the deep strike.

Completely agree. Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Deamons are all super salty right now. I don't know many happy Grey Knights players either. Although they were pretty unhappy before the new FAQ too...

 

Also who here actually relied on a T1 Alpha strike anyway? I mean sure against inexperienced players you may get away with it, but even in your FLGS most people would deploy smart or use screens to deny it. Plus BA is such a glass hammer that putting it all on the table turn 1 very rarely works out well. You're much better off aiming for a T2 strike after the opposition has moved some units and creates some holes to exploit than hitting once T1 and hoping you don't get rolled over on the following turns.

[The Unseen]

Except against a good player, you won't make any holes, not permanent ones anyway, and the exclusion zone gets bigger, not smaller after they get a turn to move in general, as anything you kill can easily have something moved in to replace it if they know how to screen properly and have enough units, like against guard.

 

You can block most deployment zones with literally 2 units of average size versus deep strike assaults if you know how to castle properly, 3 makes it pretty easy; though you need more to stop plasma and the like from shooting entirely at important stuff.

 

And against eldar, their screens are either still scary at close range and you want them dead both to make room and because they hurt (guardians) or their snipers who are infuriatingly difficult to remove with shooting, and can snipe your characters (rangers) so a turn 1 deepstrike with DC, even if all it does is charge eldars screening chaff can still get a lot of value on the board. And then turn 2 you can bring the hammer down on something actually important, like dark reapers, or an out of position farseer.

 

My list relied on a cheap unit of DC, along with inceptors and bikes, to turn 1 punch a whole in enemies lines, along with a deep striking librarian that usually either went after isolated units or support character assasination with wings, smite, an inferno pistol shot, and then a charge.

 

The beta rule renders the unit's I like to use to clear screens, well, 2 out of the 3, scout bikes still work, literally incapable of doing that, as they can't contribute till turn 2 at the earliest.

Not ineffecient at it, but physically not allowed to do it.

 

And the libby tactic is nerfed both by the beta rule, and also by the gutting of the usefulness of wings, that tactic is super dead, as you can't use wings the turn you land anymore.

 

So yeah, I'd say my list is pretty much back to square 1 for composition.

Whereas the guard and eldar players fiddled with some points and their good to go.

[Xerxus]

Why would an opponent create holes in their deepstrike exclusion zone by moving? In my experience it's the opposite problem, once the opponent gets to move the deepstrike options are more limited because they know that they have to block them. I always found more success in competitive games by deploying scouts aggressively and going in hard with my deepstrikers if I had the first turn.

[Panzer]

Yeah ask my GK opponent how much he likes my scout&recon T'au force. Before turn 1 I got stealth suite, Pathfinder and Kroot all over the place already and he doesn't even have any Scouts to even try to counter infiltrate.

Now GK are already in a rough spot and rely on deep strike more than BA, but the point still stands. Opponents being able to move up lots of units before you can drop your reserves are tough to deal with for deep strike heavy armies.

[Bremon]

When you have 150+ models you don’t create holes in your army for deep strikers to move into; every unit is a 19” minimum exclusion circle; your first movement phase just extends the exclusion zone further into no man’s land unfortunately.

[Bonzi]

When you have 150+ models you don’t create holes in your army for deep strikers to move into; every unit is a 19” minimum exclusion circle; your first movement phase just extends the exclusion zone further into no man’s land unfortunately.

I'm surprised how many people don't understand this. As often as not my T1 DSing is for board control and to keep horde armies from spreading out. It isn't about multiple turn 1 charges wrecking faces, it's about making sure turn 2 can happen. Now CC is delayed to turn 3. Meanwhile shooting armies are doing their business from T1 on, but I have to wait to fight because it's not 'fair' to lose models before a player can use them.

[The Unseen]

How did players function a few years ago when your deep strikers couldn’t come in until possibly turn 4, and then they scattered off into a tree and were removed from the game??

 

Guys, the new DS rules are beta only, and furthermore only for matched play tournaments. Being able to place the unit wherever you want with no scatter turn 2 is still a pretty powerful mechanic. Adapt and overcome.

Ohh, you mean that entirely different game with armor saves and cover that functioned totally differently, with vastly less over-all firepower, and units that charged got extra attacks and were immune to being shot entirely?

And deep strike was still used more for shooting beta strikes and deathstars than average combat units?

That game?

Yeah, this isn't the same thing anymore mate, get the false equivalencies out.

And some people, myself included, are in areas and places where Beta rules are instantly adopted no questions asked, even in casual games, so quit telling me it's not a big deal.

[keeblerartillery]

Dude. Chill out. Remember that this is a GAME. We play with plastic space barbies. Let's keep the perspective that we are fortunate enough to have enough disposable income to entertain such a frivolous (though enjoyable) pursuit

[The Unseen]

Yep, it's a game.

That I play for fun.

And suddenly I won't be having much it any fun with my army, and I keep getting told the "solution" is empty platitudes that sound more like quotes from a self-help book than actual advice, from people dismissing others concerns over this game, that requires excessive time and money investment to play.

 

If I came off as a bit snarky, it isn't intended, but I'm getting tired of people dismissing other people's opinions with no actual substance beyond "adapt".

And "adapt" seems to be more and more just code for "play with a bunch of allied guard, or better yet, just play a gunline with a single combat unit, why even bother playing BA"

[tychobi]

We still have 2 options for high percentage 1st round charges. Forlorn fury and wings o fire into 3d6 charge. Now we got the cp to do it too. Meph can often go zooming off on his magic wings round one too. Scouts get early charge opportunities all the time if deployed aggressively. This is not a skyfall situation but gunlines will continue to prosper, and continue to benefit from well used chaff. 40k is a shooty game.

 

I really dont think this changes much for experienced generals. If you were facing opponents that left you juicy first round charge targets you were not playing in my meta!

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Yep, it's a game.

That I play for fun.

And suddenly I won't be having much it any fun with my army, and I keep getting told the "solution" is empty platitudes that sound more like quotes from a self-help book than actual advice, from people dismissing others concerns over this game, that requires excessive time and money investment to play.

 

If I came off as a bit snarky, it isn't intended, but I'm getting tired of people dismissing other people's opinions with no actual substance beyond "adapt".

And "adapt" seems to be more and more just code for "play with a bunch of allied guard, or better yet, just play a gunline with a single combat unit, why even bother playing BA"

This. I havent picked up any of my models for any reason because this.

[Bremon]

How did players function a few years ago when your deep strikers couldn’t come in until possibly turn 4, and then they scattered off into a tree and were removed from the game??

 

Guys, the new DS rules are beta only, and furthermore only for matched play tournaments. Being able to place the unit wherever you want with no scatter turn 2 is still a pretty powerful mechanic. Adapt and overcome.

Remember when a 3+ save gave you a 3+ save against small arms fire? Remember when our bolters punched through tyranid chitin, guard flak armour, and basic Eldar infantry? Remember BA having armour 13 on our special snowflake vehicles? There’s plenty to adapt to, and overcoming isn’t so simple when the perks we’ve gained slowly get clawed back. Yes, it’s just a game of plastic army men, but an even playing field isn’t the worst thing.

[Arkhanist]

Guys, the new DS rules are beta only, and furthermore only for matched play tournaments.

 

They're not just for tournaments, they're beta for all matched point games, along with the rule disallowing imperium/chaos/aeldari keyword detachments. Given the character targeting rule and smite change are now no longer beta, we can expect the deep strike change to come out of beta and become official in a few months, though probably with a few more edge-case tweaks.

 

The tournament change is the one recommending limiting uses of a datasheet, e.g. no more than 3 units in the army using the same datasheet.

 

So in a few months it's entirely possible we'll be facing spam dakka, while having lost deep strike officially - given potentially 2 turns of movement an opponent can easily deny deep strike across large chunks of the table - they have to drop more than 9" away from an existing unit remember. Shooty hordes were already strong, and being largely immune to deep strike is just going to make them even stronger, particularly if they have some good anti-marine guns.

 

Trying to spread the game out so it's not all decided by turn 2 is a laudable goal, but this is a very imbalanced fix - it just means alpha shooting is now the preferred method, and that is not BA's strength. Between deep strike and cover being more useful to defend against assault than shooting, assault armies are significantly weakened across the board. But we won't get fixed because UWOF means a small BA strike force will be popular in soup tournament lists, and if everybody is taking a few, clearly they're a great army! Guard have a related problem; everybody takes a chunk of Guard for cheap CP, but previous nerfs and stacking -1 to hit means they're struggling as a mono army at the high level.

 

I should add, I don't play in tournaments, but GW clearly uses them for balancing purposes so what happens there matters to me because they change the rules for everybody based upon them.

[Panzer]

 

How did players function a few years ago when your deep strikers couldn’t come in until possibly turn 4, and then they scattered off into a tree and were removed from the game??

 

Guys, the new DS rules are beta only, and furthermore only for matched play tournaments. Being able to place the unit wherever you want with no scatter turn 2 is still a pretty powerful mechanic. Adapt and overcome.

Remember when a 3+ save gave you a 3+ save against small arms fire? Remember when our bolters punched through tyranid chitin, guard flak armour, and basic Eldar infantry? Remember BA having armour 13 on our special snowflake vehicles? There’s plenty to adapt to, and overcoming isn’t so simple when the perks we’ve gained slowly get clawed back. Yes, it’s just a game of plastic army men, but an even playing field isn’t the worst thing.

 

 

You mean the time most people only used Plasma and, more likely, Grav because it ignored basically every armor in the game completely instead of just reducing it? The time basically no unit ever used their deep strike rules because it just wasn't reliable enough unless you went with drop pods which cheesed all of the actual deep strike rules by having half of them arrive turn 1 and without any risk so you could place them right between two units? ^^

[Paladin777]

Exactly! I don’t lament the passing of 7th ed. However, Bremon is still right is saying that the game isn’t the same so trying to compare the two is like comparing WH and Warma-hordes: similar enough that a casual passerby might confuse the two, but different enough to be its own thing.

[Captain_Krash]

At least Drop pods/transports in general were worth fielding in 6th/7th. Though I digress.

 

What's killing a lot of the game currently is that GW is changing rules to support/cater to their tournaments playerbase. Which directly affects the beer and pretzel player who goes to a store to find a pick up game or at home with his mates. Armies are being nerfed due to the fact that they are considered too "powerful" while being taken as allies, example ie "Conscripts for AM" while not the most game braking unit available to AM but extremely powerful once combined with Guilliman so lets nerf the AM players who don't use allies for extreme dependability.

 

With that said I personally foresee that there's no way this new FAQ will stick as it is right now. I don't know how it will change but it cannot stay is it is. As you all know and can see the collective internet is pretty much up in arms over it, and I'm sure GW has been received thousands of emails of outrage regarding it's new Deep strike/reserve rulings. I understand GW's take of wanting to let players use there models for longer periods of time on the battlefield but, I would leave that up to the player and his use of tactics/terrain advantages and stop penalizing the armies that "can" alpha strike to get the opponent on his/her toes. As a AM player as well as a BA player I can totally see why BA really do need the use of a preemptive strike to help make there armies function. Forcing the gunline to shift focus/divert forces to help stem the new found threat on there deployment zone. I actually enjoy when a alpha strke worked in my opponents favor just due to how cinematic it would look on the battle field and my opponents joy/happiness to see his plan come to fruition. Nothing I love more than when a battle is a constant tug of war all around the battlefield where each roll could make or break the game.

 

Just remember we have the Blood of Sanguinius running through our veins and sometimes our aggression and tempers can get the best of us, But we are all brothers here. Whether you hail from the Knights of Blood, to the Cursed Lamenters we stand together united.

 

Krash

[Panzer]

Drop Pods, yes. I agree there. Rhinos and such? Please, people only started using them in tournaments seriously when they got them for free lol

Amazing how quick people forget about how things used to be. :D

 

I honestly think the changes are generally not that bad, just that they aren't very polished yet. Like the smite change which seemed very heavy handed at first but now that it's actually there works pretty well.

Also imo once GW finally does some proper terrain rules many issues of running up against gun lines should get solved as well.

[Captain_Krash]

Rhinos where a powerhouse in 3rd and 4th Panzer. 

 

I'd like to see proper terrain rules as well there kind of rubbish at them moment. 

 

 

Krash 

[Panzer]

Yeah but you were saying 6th/7th, not 3rd/4th. ;)

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

 

This change, while probably not "sky is falling" levels of broken, is still going to actively punish melee heavy armies in some circumstances. I'd say if anything, everybody just brushing it off as no big deal aren't actually thinking it through from the point of view of armies with very limited shooting options,armies without easy access to FLY, or both, and are the ones being pretty disrespectful by not even engaging with the idea it might be a bad rule.

 

 

Agreed. On the other hand it was also true that extreme wobbly model had issues. I have been letting people wobbly model so far in 8th and do you know what has never ever happened once they do not need to physically place their models? Not one player has ever realised they got their charge or pile-in placement slightly wrong. When they actually have to place their models on the table nearly everybody makes mistakes, we are not perfect players. When they can just state "my models are where they need to be because I made the charge distance" everybody suddenly becomes a perfect player. Odd that. They do not even state anything exactly, it's amazing how I can't even Heroically Intervene as the model that they did not have to place anywhere will suddenly be 3.1" away from my character the moment I try to declare it. Odd that.

 

Allowing just anything on the basis of wobbly model was also a bad rule. From my 8th edition experience I would say it was a worse rule but it's OK if we disagree on which arbitrary abstraction is more problematic.

[Xenith]

 

Yeah, this isn't the same thing anymore mate, get the false equivalencies out.

 

You complain that people are belittling and ignoring your viewpoint, and yet you do exactly the same, you say their their arguments are worthless because you believe they aren't.

 

It's difficult to have any form of discussion when you respond to every point with "your argument is invalid". Many need to take a step back.

 

As such, there is little point to this thread until they do. People are supposed to be coming up with contribution and suggestions, not more wah wah.

[BluejayJunior]

What do people think of using more Agressors? I don't have any experience playing them, but they popped into my head as a unit to keep on the board.

A squad of 3 is 6 PL and 111 Points. A squad of 4 goes to 12 PL and 148 Points.

My thinking is that they have a lot of Str 4 shooting and are T5, so a little more resilient than our Troops. They can be stationary and shoot twice or be more mobile and shoot without the -1 when advancing.

What are other people's thoughts? Especially those who have played them frequently. I'm just theorycrafting right now. 

[Paladin777]

I’ve thought about that too. As such, I’m curious about what others have to say too.

[Kallas]

I'd like Aggressors more if I didn't gate their models!

[Paladin777]

That’s funny because I actually kinda like them!