Heavy Support Options: Retributors vs. Exorcists

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone!

 

Just curious what your experience has been between these units. Is it better to take Exorcists over Retributors or vice versa? 

 

What is the optimal unit size for Retributors?

 

What is the optimal number of Exorcists to have in a list using Heavy Support options?

 

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I was reading in another thread that someone uses 10-Nun squads of Retributors with four multi-meltas and that they do fairly well. I'm not sure about the cost of this unit as I don't have my index on me. But, is it more than an Exorcist? What is the ratio if you have the points? 1:2, 2:3? Just curious. 

 

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

[Ice warrior]

I have used and now abandoned Exorcists completely. Fun? Yes, Good looking? Yes, Point effective? No. 

 

I have been running 7-8 woman retribution team with 4 heavy bolters. It has been performing well, the couple extra bodies is to soak up sprodatic fire. team is usually teamed up with a imaginifer for extra shooty.

 

2nd retribution team I have been running is 5 woman team with 4 heavy flamers. Used only on one match, but for now it seems usable.

 

Retribution team with 4 multi-meltas in a repressor. Might be a good replacement due to restrictions on dominion spam.

 

in a brigade detachments, I would do penitent engines, h.flamer and h.bolter retributors.

 

Disclaimer (I am not a pro player)

[Beams]

The 10 woman ret squad is 198 vs the Exorcists 145.

 

The exorcist shoots d6 shots, while the rets shoot 4.

 

Exorcist has a range of 48" and the mm have a range of 24"

 

Exorcist deals D3 damage, rets d6 and 2d6 drop the lowest in 12".

 

Ret can AoF with the 2+ or use an Imagifier to go twice, Exorcist can't. Exorcists have a higher toughness, but can be killed easer with multidamage weapons, while Rets are easier to kill with low damage high shots.

 

Exorcist has a 3+/6+ and Rets have a 3+/6+, both can be buffed by Celestine but Celestine doesn't really want to be by either, but Rets benefit easier from cover.

 

Not to mention the extra Bolter shots that can hurt troops that stray to close.

[Aothaine]

Does anyone think that giving Exorcists access to the whirlwind ability that allows them to shoot stuff not in los would make them worth it?

 

The army I'm building is all about being mobile. So everything is in Repressors that can go in Repressors. That being said, I was not very clear in stating that I wanted to compare the units based off of their ability as anti-tank. I apologize. Thank you both for the information though. Gonna have to keep thinking about this more.

[Aqui]

Hopefully, Exorcists will regain their reputation for being a total pain in the butt on the board in the next Codex, but right now, the cost tends to outweigh their value.

[Aothaine]

Hopefully, Exorcists will regain their reputation for being a total pain in the butt on the board in the next Codex, but right now, the cost tends to outweigh their value.

 

Yeah... I'm still building three Exorcists. Have all the parts for my first one and plan on getting it built and primed this weekend. I'll have a blog post up sometime this weekend as well.

 

Edit: Whoops! I mean the weekend after next. I can't afford the required glue as of this moment.

[bkde]

 

 

Hopefully, Exorcists will regain their reputation for being a total pain in the butt on the board in the next Codex, but right now, the cost tends to outweigh their value.

Yeah... I'm still building three Exorcists. Have all the parts for my first one and plan on getting it built and primed this weekend. I'll have a blog post up sometime this weekend as well.

 

Edit: Whoops! I mean the weekend after next. I can't afford the required glue as of this moment.

I like running two with a bare bones Cannoness nearby.

 

I use to run 3 + a squad of 5 4x HB rets. I don't like running Imaginifiers (I think they're overcosted) so my rets were always competing for the AoF against my Seraphim/doms/Celestine.

 

With two I'll confess I don't expect much, but the t8 with 3+/6++ (5++ when I bubble up near Celestine turn 1) keeps them alive for awhile. They also force my opponent to keep his head down, can plink off 2+/3+ save units that pop out of cover or things that like to hide at the back of the board but require LOS to shoot (Dark Reapers, Necron Destroyers) or things that are fast and hard to pin down, especially when I need my Seraphim/Celestine elsewhere (jetbikes, shining spears, bikers, flyers). They perform slightly different roles than Retributors. More like krak missile armed devs.

 

For assembly I just used "Krazy" brand Superglue. It's available at almost every hardware/drugstore here in Canada and costs about $4/tube, one tube will last awhile. The three exorcists I have had seen regular play (2 games per month) for the better part of 3 years. Haven't had any issues yet, although I do keep the pianist turret unglued and stored separately.

[Mekhitar]

At 198 points, a squad of 10 Rets with 4MM isn't "cheap".  But it doesn't have a degrading profile, it can take advantage of cover readily (as mentioned above), and with an act of faith, it can be quite the sledgehammer.  The most important thing about them is to range your opponents right.  Some careful measuring can get them just in range of what you want (24" is a ways, especially compared with melta guns or inferno pistols), and they are easy to screen with our tanks or terrain.  I've had a lot of fun pieing the corner on just the tank or tough target I want to kill, eliminating it, and leaving a frustrated opponent with few return fire options.

I used to run all-mech in 7th, but since I don't field repressors, I am always on the lookout for ways to get the most out of sisters on foot.  This edition is much "faster" than 7th as far as speed.  Guardsmen can readily outrun tanks with the right orders; retributors with MM can reposition 12" (move + AoF) and still hit on 4s, making that 24" range deceptively larger than you think it is!  And many opponents outshine sisters in CC and will bring the fight to you.  Fliers, too, often err dangerously close, and the MM punishes them for that.

Now, if I did field repressors, I would absolutely make a MM bunker, plop it in the middle of the field, and defy the enemy to come in reach.  As it is, I'm thinking of trying a bastion in my next list just for the hilarious giant zone of denial.  I'll let you know how that goes.

One thing I will say about retributors - they really do want that AoF support.  The sudden unexpected move with them, or better yet the blistering double-tap, is what really makes them shine.  Chaos gets a 2CP stratagem to shoot its slaanesh havocs a second time; we can do it turn after turn without spending a single CP.  Stacking our special weapons into squads maximizes that efficiency.  The range and power of the MM really brings that out.  Since I run brigades, and have to fill the elite slots anyway, I don't mind taking 3 imagifiers (or 2 and a hospitaller if I am pressed for points), which gives me 3 reliable AoFs per turn.  Usually they go to the 2 seraphim squads and Celestine, but it turns out seraphim thrown at the enemy face die quickly - especially if they swoop in with melta pistols and slag something important - and the rets are a great target for it on t2 and later.

I've gotten good use out of HB rets as well, usually run min and also with an imagifier and a canoness nearby for support, but since I only have 6 HB sister models and I tend to run them in my brigade BSS... I use this unit less often.  I haven't given HF rets a shot yet.

The exoricst... to be honest, I field it mostly because a sisters army can be quite monochrome, and the exorcist adds a splash of variety.  Otherwise, sisters are sisters are sisters, whether you call them battle sisters or dominions or retributors... they all look the same. :/  I like having something else on the table.  I don't really take it because it is terribly useful, though.  Not useless, just underwhelming. Yes, the T8 is tough, and yes, it has a 12" reposition (but so do rets...!), but it rarely gets touched, and its damage is... well, not quite wet noodle, but it leaves a lot to be desired.  I'm hoping it gets buffed to a basilisk-style 2d6 take highest, or gets some kind of strategem support when our codex does drop.  I do enjoy two things about it: first, it is great at "clean up" - it has the most firing options of any sisters unit and so I always save it for last, to plink off a few more wounds on whatever my melta hasn't ripped apart, or to take a flier or large vehicle down a notch on its stat block; and second, because it is AP-4, it is very satisfying against stuff without invulns.  Since I also play chaos and field quite a few lascannons, the difference between ap-3 and ap-4 is felt very strongly.  It's nice to land a hit and realize that the opponent just doesn't get a save...!

If I had 2 of them, though, I wouldn't field the second.  I often times have to 'make' myself field the first.  I prefer filling heavy support slots with penitent engines... but that is a topic for another day

[ERJAK]

Multimelta rets are overpriced, the range is too short, taking ablative wounds makes them not only more vulnerable to morale, but a bigger, juicier target. You can get 5cp worth of guardsman and a melta gun for the same price, it's just...so underwhelming. Throwing on a transport is just throwing good money after mediocre money.

 

Look at it this way, an MM ret pillbox, and a Primaris repulsor have very similar points costs and very similar statistics. They're about the same level of resilience with a slight edge to the pillbox. The Repulsor has better firepower, range, speed, versitility and is resistant to melee, yet no one takes them either.

 

With sister being forced down to 3 of every unit max, it might be worth it to take a 5 or 6 girl MM ret squad on foot and hope to the emperor your opponent doesn't have a good way to deal with them, but they'd end up being a ghetto dominion squad at best.

 

Additionally, as a result of the changes from the FAQ, the power of long range, LoS negating static gunlines is going to go up significantly, while the number of available targets in the retributors miniscule range is going to go down.

[Beams]

Multimelta rets are overpriced, the range is too short, taking ablative wounds makes them not only more vulnerable to morale, but a bigger, juicier target. You can get 5cp worth of guardsman and a melta gun for the same price, it's just...so underwhelming. Throwing on a transport is just throwing good money after mediocre money.

 

Look at it this way, an MM ret pillbox, and a Primaris repulsor have very similar points costs and very similar statistics. They're about the same level of resilience with a slight edge to the pillbox. The Repulsor has better firepower, range, speed, versitility and is resistant to melee, yet no one takes them either.

 

With sister being forced down to 3 of every unit max, it might be worth it to take a 5 or 6 girl MM ret squad on foot and hope to the emperor your opponent doesn't have a good way to deal with them, but they'd end up being a ghetto dominion squad at best.

 

Additionally, as a result of the changes from the FAQ, the power of long range, LoS negating static gunlines is going to go up significantly, while the number of available targets in the retributors miniscule range is going to go down.

Just because you don't like "ablative wounds" as you call them, doesn't mean multimelta Rets don't benefit from having 6 bolter girls in their squad. This isn't 7th, they can shoot at different targets. And isn't it bettter that if an enemy wants to take out your 37 pt 1 wound model, that they have to first chew through 6 3+ (2+ in a cover) saves?

 

Also, the idea that 24" range is bad is ridiculous. If the enemy moves off their deployment zone, you can hit them. Or you can AoF and move 12" and then hit them pretty much anywhere on the board. Your rets are fairly mobile if you need them to be. Get them into cover, and have them plink away. At the very least, it'll buy time for your max of three dominokns to do work, but generally I find people focus on the giant tanks of death that I'm throwing around, allowing my Retributors to destroy things with imounity.

[Ficinus]

I really love running a squad of Heavy Flamer retributors (with combi-flamer) in a rhino with a squad of battle sisters with heavy flamer, flamer, combi-flamer. They can jump out and do a tremendous amount of damage to anything T4 or lower. It's true they're mainly a holdover unit from 7th ed when they could rend, but I still love them.

[Montford]

MM Retributors for me. They can take advantage of Acts of Faith and Hospitallers.

[Aothaine]

I really love running a squad of Heavy Flamer retributors (with combi-flamer) in a rhino with a squad of battle sisters with heavy flamer, flamer, combi-flamer. They can jump out and do a tremendous amount of damage to anything T4 or lower. It's true they're mainly a holdover unit from 7th ed when they could rend, but I still love them.

 

This sounds like a load of fun! I'm going to have to look into this and see what I can do to play around with a few squads setup for this.

[Drider]

Multimelta rets are overpriced, 

 

The Multimelta is overpriced for what it is.

 

they should either drop it's points a little or give it 2 shots as it's got 2 barrels.

[Montford]

Put a squad of heavy flamer Retributors in a Repressor with two heavy flamers of its own.

 

You now have a rolling lava fountain. :)

[Beams]

 

 

Multimelta rets are overpriced,

The Multimelta is overpriced for what it is.

 

they should either drop it's points a little or give it 2 shots as it's got 2 barrels.

I mean, I agree, but it's also really powerful in the hands of a sister of battle, and making it any better will make meltas not good?

 

Like, for ten pts more, you are super dangerous at 12" instead of 24", but if you switch it to heavy2 24", suddenly one 27 pt weapon is douvle tapping 4 melta shots at an increased range... It's a tough situation. I'd really just like to see it dropped to 22ish pts.

[Mekhitar]

My first reaction to 8th was how horribly overpriced multimeltas are.  Now, I'm not so sure, at least compared to weapons of their 'type'  They are only 2 pts more than the 25pts of a BS+ lascannon shot.  Yes, they have half the range, but that is less of an issue in 8th than it has ever been (things are stupidly fast this edition); and they do away with the main weakness of the lascannon, which is that d6 is so spikey for damage.  You can get 6... or you can get 1.  2d6 take highest is pretty amazing.

 

I do think they are too expensive compared to weapons/stats outside their type (the cost of additional infantry, the cost of tanks, etc), but not so expensive.  To be honest, their chief issue - and all melta shares this issue - is that plasma is just too good for the points, at AT and at everything else.  It's why you see plasma everywhere, and not melta, in armies that have the option of both.

 

To be honest, I think GW just overpriced the 'd6 variable damage' stat - in much the same way they overpriced the flamer's 'd6 hits' vs the combi bolter.

[A.T.]

My first reaction to 8th was how horribly overpriced multimeltas are.  Now, I'm not so sure, at least compared to weapons of their 'type'  They are only 2 pts more than the 25pts of a BS+ lascannon shot.  Yes, they have half the range, but that is less of an issue in 8th than it has ever been (things are stupidly fast this edition); and they do away with the main weakness of the lascannon, which is that d6 is so spikey for damage.  You can get 6... or you can get 1.  2d6 take highest is pretty amazing.

 

But if you are taking those 2d6 your effective range isn't half but a quarter. Melta weapons also fall flat when confronted with the heavier T8 vehicles, they really don't stack up well to lascannons.

[Mekhitar]

Yeah. Against a t8 with a 3+ (like our own exorcists, or russes), you are looking at a per-hit average of 1.75 wounds at 12-24” and 2.23 at 1-12”, whereas a lascannon is 1.925 at 1-48”. This takes into account the wound roll and follow up save.

 

Granted these numbers give the illusion of flat damage expectations, plasma style, whereas melta is much spikier (“unreliable”). So you get the turns where seraphim with melta pistols do absolutely nothing, followed by the turns where they drop 23 wounds on a baneblade in one turn. Anecdotal evidence taken from last tournament :p

 

What really makes melta drop off in usefulness are invuln saves on those tanks. And let’s face it, plenty an enemy tank gets them. It’s actually an issue for a lot of Sisters stuff; sure an exorcist or an Eviscerator is ap-4, but when the enemy character is rocking a 4++, or the tank a 5++, well... you are paying for an AP you aren’t using. And it’s not like you have the option to swap the weapon for something else, like a Russ who drops plasma for battle cannons.

 

And of course the pricing doesn’t take this reality into account. So the gun doesn’t “look” so bad, in comparison, but practically “is” worse than that. :/

 

...not that I want these other options in my sisters, mind, but it is an interesting observation! And I hold out hope that the lack of melta in imperial armies might give GW the hint to drop the price, or bring back some “melta missile” style variation in the gun. Maybe not full reroll to wound, but a +1 to wound while targeting vehicles would be nice...

[Beams]

I wouldn't worry too much about enemy vehicles but enemy characters having invulns. Vehicles usally don't, and if they do, it's generally a 6+ or 5+

 

That said, a major benefit that is overlooked with meltas: you get a wound through, you roll damage and get a 3 and a 1. That's a below average roll. You command point reroll the one, and roll a 5. Bam! One command point for 2 extra damage. Doesn't always work, but can mess up enemy characters and vehicles.

 

I've had my Seraphim take out a ridiculous amount of enemy heroes with their meltas. Everyone thinks Celestine is the threat when I've got 4-8 melee melta shots a round...

[Aothaine]

I've had my Seraphim take out a ridiculous amount of enemy heroes with their meltas. Everyone thinks Celestine is the threat when I've got 4-8 melee melta shots a round...

 

Wait, you can shoot the inferno pistols instead of making close combat attacks? Or are you just stating that you can fire the pistols wheether or not your are in close combat?

[Beams]

 

I've had my Seraphim take out a ridiculous amount of enemy heroes with their meltas. Everyone thinks Celestine is the threat when I've got 4-8 melee melta shots a round...

 

Wait, you can shoot the inferno pistols instead of making close combat attacks? Or are you just stating that you can fire the pistols wheether or not your are in close combat?

 

You can fire them whether or not your in combat. And you can AoF fire them, so you can do My first two rounds usually go something like: AoF Move Both, Move, Fire Meltas Charge, Melee on Our Turn, Melee on their Turn (everyone focuses Celestine), AoF Fire Meltas, AoF Celestine to Attack, Move, Fire Meltas, Charge attack with celestine.

 

That's assuming their targets survive, or someone is brave enough to charge that squad, which usually seems like a good idea at the time.