How do you beat this?

[Frater Cornelius]

Played a game today. 2000pts. A guy was testing new DA for a tournament. I did expect to lose with my semi-optimized list. However, I did not expect to lose turn 1.

 

In short, I was running 3 gatling taurox primes, a vulture, a valkyrie with bullgryns, a chimera with HQs and Scion Command, 10 dudes with 4 Plasmas, 2 times 2 dudes with 2 Meltas each, the FW Hellhounds, 2 Wyverns, 3 Armoured Sents with AC, a lone HF Scout Sent. Tallarn + MT.

He was running a DA Brigade with Kabal of the Black Heart. 6 units of 5 Warriors with a Lance each, 3 Archons with Lances (index), 3 units of 5 Trueborn with 4 lances each (index), 3 units of 5 Scourges with 4 Haywire each, 3 Ravagers with 3 Disintegrators each, 5 Raiders (3 lances, 2 disintegrators).

 

The issue was that between the deep strike stratagem, the -1 to hit, 6+ FnP, and cover, I couldn’t kill a single Raider with all my tanks, the deep strike can not get close T1. In return, all the lances and absurbs movement and thus a few charges have killed both my flies, all Tauroxes, 5 Scions who were in a Taurox (to finish deployment quicker), the Bullgryns, the Hellhound and a Scout Sent.

Too much -4AP stuff, while I struggle to stratch his T5 tanks. I need to move a bit closer to target him, and once I did, he murdered me.

 

Now, I realize that his list is rediculously anti-mine. However, that is probably what pure Cabal lists will look like. My question is, is there a way for me to challenge that? Maybe not winning, but not make it such a stomp. I’d like the core idea of the list, but I am open to suggestions.

[domsto]

The answer is simple

Play more long Range gun with higher strenght and AP

Like Leman russes Battlecannon or basilisks

Dark Lance is a very scary weapon but can easly outranged by our tanks;)

The Plasma sions aside you have nothing to deal with Vehicals

I kow you play melta but sadly they are just crap in this edition so drop them and play more plasma

[Tirak]

I'm not sure I understand what the core of your list is... you've got a smattering of a ton of different ideas but committed to none. Maybe I'm not deciphering your list properly from how you've described it, but I'm not seeing some of the major fundamentals I normally look for in a list and so I don't really know how to help you. What I can do is tell you that Wyverens and Armored Sentinels are wasted points to be better spent elsewhere. You've eschewed a core of Russes or Infantry as far as I can tell and I don't see many large scale synergies.

 

Maybe I'm just not understanding what is actually in your list based on how you wrote it out, but it looks to me like you've got a very fragile egg of an army with no ability to take a punch and keep rolling.

[Frater Cornelius]

The answer is simple

Play more long Range gun with higher strenght and AP

Like Leman russes Battlecannon or basilisks

Dark Lance is a very scary weapon bit can easly outranged by our tanks;)

The Plasma sions aside you have nothing to deal with Vehicals

I kow you play melta but sadly they are just crap in this edition so drop them and play more plasma

 

The answer is simple

Play more long Range gun with higher strenght and AP

Like Leman russes Battlecannon or basilisks

Dark Lance is a very scary weapon bit can easly outranged by our tanks;)

The Plasma sions aside you have nothing to deal with Vehicals

I kow you play melta but sadly they are just crap in this edition so drop them and play more plasma

 

Well, I guess that means starting a new army. Those are all I have and my funds are rather limited. I can change around weapons on the vehicles. On infantry it would also mean dismembering the models yet again. Guess I will need to learn to live with a lifetime of regret and disappointment :D

 

@Tirak - Aren't you a charming fella

[domsto]

Just proxy your Melta sions as Plasma ones^^

The hobby is expensiv and everybody knows it so i thing nobody will complain about a proxy here and there;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Just proxy your Melta sions as Plasma ones^^

The hobby is expensiv and everybody knows it so i thing nobody will complain about a proxy here and there;)

 

Not sure that alone will fix the issue. Besides, I hate proxying, but that's the beside the point :D

[domsto]

 

 

Just proxy your Melta sions as Plasma ones^^

The hobby is expensiv and everybody knows it so i thing nobody will complain about a proxy here and there;)

Not sure that alone will fix the issue. Besides, I hate proxying, but that's the beside the point :D

Yeah as mentioned before your list isn't that gread.

As much i hate to say that but it's sadly the truth.

 

But you could try out a Taurox prime with the missle launcher and autocannons.

He's not the best you can get, but it's a start

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

Just proxy your Melta sions as Plasma ones^^

The hobby is expensiv and everybody knows it so i thing nobody will complain about a proxy here and there;)

Not sure that alone will fix the issue. Besides, I hate proxying, but that's the beside the point

Yeah as mentioned before your list isn't that gread.

As much i hate to say that but it's sadly the truth.

 

But you could try out a Taurox prime with the missle launcher and autocannons.

He's not the best you can get, but it's a start

 

 

I was pretty sure it would be hopeless. I just hoped against hope that there's something I missed. Oh well, nevermind then. I'll get over it :P

[librisrouge]

Sadly, he is VERY rock to your scissors. Russ tanks would help. So would long range artillery that can hide behind LoS blockers. Too much of your build requires you to get close.

 

Don’t give up hope though. He isn’t the only opponent and your list isn’t 100% doomed.

[our_baz]

Having the wyverns as hydras might of helped against that flying circus. But to honest you've played against one of those tourney lists with your themed fluffy list. I wouldn't let it bother me, stick to your guns and let the tourney players worry about their extra 0.5% lists.

[our_baz]

I don't know the DE codex at all, what is a good foil for IG against DE?

[Halfpint100]

That is a lot of high strength low volume firepower. Swarm him with cheap guard infantry, that should help. Add some bodies to your list!

[Withershadow]

I don't know the DE codex at all, what is a good foil for IG against DE?

If they are skimmer heavy, as they are likely to be, keep in mind that they are basically floating sentinels. Autocannons are actually surprisingly good here at whittling them down. Don't get obsessed with sinking lots of firepower into grotesques or Talos units before taking out the transports, ravagers, and flyers. They look very scary, and can soak a lot of damage, but they can only kill so much a turn, and Guard is blessed with a large number of innately disposable units. 

 

With Wyches, the units will blenderize infantry like no one's business, but struggle against Bullgryns or armor.  DE in general struggle dealing lots of damage in melee with pretty much all weapons being dmg 1 or D3.  If they are using Reaver jetbikes, those guys can engage your shooty elements very quickly, so bubble-wrap your tanks in such a way that there is no room for him to fly over your guard and engage the Russes.

[zero88]

If he's going to spam then Spam right back... Hydras will wreck his face. +1 to hit, wounding on 3s, the crap AP doesn't matter because everything has a 5++ anyways, 2D, and double the range.. not to mention whatever regiment bonus you have. Just make sure you screen with plenty of bubble wrap.

[mertbl]

Only the venoms, the little boats, have -1 to hit. Unless a "chapter tactic" makes his raiders hard to hit as well.

 

Hide. Maybe go tallarn to bring stuff in from a board edge turn 2. Or even turn 1 to your own deployment zone.

[Frater Cornelius]

Sadly, he is VERY rock to your scissors. Russ tanks would help. So would long range artillery that can hide behind LoS blockers. Too much of your build requires you to get close.

 

Don’t give up hope though. He isn’t the only opponent and your list isn’t 100% doomed.

I may dislike it, but if I want to keep up with the harder players, I need to expand my roster. Scions are well and good, but they lack heavy firepower of the Guard. He may not be my only opponent, but it has been a decent wake up call to think about what I want to do with it in the long run.

[shandwen]

Like Mertbl said, only the venoms (small skimmer with no sail) have -1 to hit, and (thank you GW) Dark Eldar have no way to give more stuff negative hit modifiers. DE have a solid book with cheap and effective units. It sounds like he probably picked apart your army threat by threat. Unfortunately the way to counter that is to bring two or three of any threat you have, which it sounds like you can't right now. The other option is to ask to play at lower points where you don't need 3x of major units.

[Frater Cornelius]

@shadwen - They have that 2CP Stratagem that Eldar have that gives a Fly or Infantry unit -1 to hit, don’t they?

 

Okay, in light of the current situation, I have reinstated my Leman Russ tank company, this time as Cadians though. I got Pask Punisher, two Battletanks and an Executioner.

As for Scions, I had a look at all the top 3 Astra lists from the past months. Literally everyone was running three or sometimes more Primes with Gatling and either AC or HSV and everyone was running some Meltas ontop of their Plasmas. Meltas can’t be as bad. One guy was even running half his Scion-only list with them and won. He had a Knight, sure, but no Russes or Artillery.

 

However, I am very reluctant when it comes to including conscripts. Not every good list had them, but the overwhelming majority did. I just dislike such an overwhelming infantry blob spam. I’d be fine with a few Infantry squads though, but I wonder how much they are needed next to the Tanks and the Scion detachment. Same goes for the HWS with Mortars, which were also very common.

[Halfpint100]

Those top lists are out of date I am afraid. That was when dakka primes were under 100 points (still good though tbf). Conscripts were 3 pts and commissars only killed 1 model for moral. More guardsmen is good though. Your list lacked bodies

[Mordian Glory]

As others have said, your list isnt great. I feel like you may have missed the main point of IG: Mass infantry and tanks. Looking at your list it looks more like a Space Marine list then an IG list (a few elite infantry backed up by some nice toys). When playing IG you have to be able to take a real beating turn 1, loose loads of units, but then have still have plenty of assets left to carry on the fight. There is an old Guard saying, if it worth taking once it worth taking 3-4 times (the first unit will die, the second will run away and the third and forth will actually get the job done!)

 

I recently played a list similar DE to this with my Mordian Iron guard and I crushed it.

 

The key to beat the Dark Eldar is masses of bodies, I was running my pure infantry army (as I do most games ). Their vehicles are so fragile that even lasguns are wounding them on 5s! Like you have noticed, DE are able to bring a scary amount of AP-4 guns to the field. But they are all wasted if they are killing 4pts models all game. Also poison is a double edge sword as it still only wounds guardsmen on 4+.

 

I am not saying that you need to go out there and buy 200+ Guardsmen, but a solid core of infantry squads + leman russes is what you need to have success with IG. A good source of cheap minis is ebay:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/40k-Warhammer-Games-Workshop-Imperial-Guard-Jungle-Fighters-Joblot/123079835099?hash=item1ca8213ddb:g:SUUAAOSwLLZa06Ui

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40k-Astra-Militarum-Imperial-Guard-Catachan-Infantry-Squad/273142348137?hash=item3f988d7969:g:A2sAAOSwjH5axNG-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40k-Militarum-Imperial-Guard-Catachan-Infantry-Squad-w4227/362292977108?hash=item545a581dd4:g:ZKEAAOSwnCxaz8C-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warhammer-40k-Astra-Militarum-Imperial-Guard-Cadian-Infantry-Squad-w2444/273142338572?hash=item3f988d540c:g:j-EAAOSwwARaxM8j

 

 

I hope this advice has been helpful

[Frater Cornelius]

Eh, don’t worry. I played my fair share of blobs in 6th and 7th ;) I have to check. I may be able to find a few of my leftover Guardsmen and bits to build up a few functionen Infantry squads. Russes are already accounted for. Looks like it will be a Cadia list after all. I was hoping MT would do it on their own, but alas, that is not the case.

[TheShredder]

The issue was that between the deep strike stratagem, the -1 to hit, 6+ FnP, and cover, I couldn’t kill a single Raider with all my tanks, the deep strike can not get close T1. In return, all the lances and absurbs movement and thus a few charges have killed both my flies, all Tauroxes, 5 Scions who were in a Taurox (to finish deployment quicker), the Bullgryns, the Hellhound and a Scout Sent.

 

Where is the -1 to hit coming from? I know there's a stratagem that lets you give -1 to hit against a single vehicle, but that can only protect 1 Raider per turn. And Raiders on their own don't impose any -1 to hit penalty. Only Venoms do that.

 

Also, I'm surprised that he's able to get easily cover for them, given that you have to be both inside the cover and 50% obscured (which seems very tricky for a skimmer).

[Frater Cornelius]

We had ample amount of third party terrain. As for the Raiders, yes, he used the stratagem. However, he deployed rather far back and gave me little opportunity to attack. The one Raider I could reach got the -1.

[Altasmurf]

To me it seems like his is a list that you need to beta strike. Maybe split your forces and keep them hidden make him come to you. Then Using the tallarn ambush on your sentinels (squadron them) and deep striking your stormies could allow you focus on one aspect of his army (I would hit the fast stuff). Then redeploy your stuff to focus on the weaker sections. You're probably not going to win but you might be able to out up a fight.

[tychobi]

I fear that you played into a very dangerous list and did not have much resilience built into your list. Those lances reached out and whacked your light vehicles like they were nothing. Your short range anti rank never had a chance. Dark Eldar are top tier and do well vs elite low wound count lists like what you used. I have been playing 40k a long time. 1995 was my first game. I am not sure anyone would have done much better in your situation