New Feedback Mail to GW

[9x19 Parabellum]

And this is a HUGE change. 

 

Perhaps, but you do realize not every game of 40k in the world is played at a 2k point level right?  In fact most games in my local meta are closer to 1k - 1.2k because there are a lot of working adults with kids and families that don't have time to play bigger games.

 

And so all I'm trying to point out here is that it's disingenous, and a failure, to say GREK KNIGHTS SUCK SO BAD OMG I CAN'T PLAY THEM but then admit, "oh, 500/750 pts, yeah, sure they are very good at *that* bracket, but NO ONE Plays it", except, oh wait, yes, they do.

 

Anyway I guess I'm not going to change anyone's mind and that's ok.  I think most of the page 1 issues that the OP wrote about that I agree with are things that affect Astartes in general (Termies and the Tac profile in general being way overcosted, dreads (of any name) suffering the -1 penalty to move and shoot heavy weapons).  But as an RG player, I'm lucky, because most of the other chapter tactics suck hard, and I would say several of them are worse than GK.

[Danarc]

The HUGE change isn’t playng at 500 points. It’s don’t consider the rules related to CP and detachments.

[techsoldaten]

 

Anyway I guess I'm not going to change anyone's mind and that's ok.  I think most of the page 1 issues that the OP wrote about that I agree with are things that affect Astartes in general (Termies and the Tac profile in general being way overcosted, dreads (of any name) suffering the -1 penalty to move and shoot heavy weapons).  But as an RG player, I'm lucky, because most of the other chapter tactics suck hard, and I would say several of them are worse than GK.

 

I agree with you, there's a tendency to overstate the problems with Grey Knights. And people are very polarized in their positions.

 

It's not a question of whether or not they suck, it's a question of how bad you make them sound when saying so. Anything other than all caps runs the risk of a mob forming to call you a liar.

 

It's useful to discuss situations where Grey Knights do well, otherwise GW is never going to know what to fix in the Codex. Did you happen to write to GW about the tournament results and what you saw as working well?

 

I send a letter after every game detailing at least one problem area. And I try to be as polite as possible.

[Matt_149]

Also every gaming group is different and don't take the opinions of people on here as the be all and end all. You don't know what size gaming group they are basing their opinions on or even if they are telling the truth :) play games and have fun. Gw will sort the points out in the next chapter approved :)

[techsoldaten]

Also every gaming group is different and don't take the opinions of people on here as the be all and end all. You don't know what size gaming group they are basing their opinions on or even if they are telling the truth play games and have fun. Gw will sort the points out in the next chapter approved

 

After the sixth letter, 40kFaq did reply to me with a thank you note saying they appreciate the feedback and keep it coming. So I have a feeling they know what the biggest issues are and have plans to address them.

 

Most of my messages have focused on psychic powers, saving throws, heavy weapons, specific rules for vehicles, and power weapons. I've tried to use every unit and think I've commented to them on each.

[BitsHammer]

Some might have noticed I started a thread to collect information to submit a write up about the Space Marine codex with what most players aren't taking and why, and because Grey Knights are the only codex I know lagging behind the Space Marine one I want to do the same with them.

 

Basically what I'm looking for is what isn't working in the codex, and why. Let's leave points out of this as much as possible since they don't really fix the problems effectively and focus on what makes the units feel overcosted.

 

Stuff like Terminators being weak to D2 weapons or the lack of AP mitigation are good starting points I'm sure, but I know people more familar with the book likely know more.

 

Once I get everything together and collated into a manner that is polite but honest about the problems I'll be putting it up for review as well, so don't worry, this is an open project. I'm just using my free time and pointless enthusiasm to help with a problem I perceive, even if it doesn't get anything in the end, I feel better at least bringing the problems to the attention to those who should know about them the most.

 

So what needs fixing?

[Danarc]

If you look at the GK board you'll find two or three topics related to this subject. We collected some feedback and sent different e-mail to GW. the first one une year ago, a second one after BIG :cuss (not really polite) and a third some months ago, after a pool in dakkadakka where GK won the award for the worst army with the 67%. 

After that (but we don't know if there is a relation) Cruddace said that in CA we'll have some good news for GK. I'm not so optimistic, but I think that if that is true, and it should be, we should wait for the CA and then send (if needed) a new feedback.

 

That being said, the GK problem is GK codex. 

There is nothing that works, specially after the DS beta rule. 

Few units (some of them completely useless), overcosted, all with the same role, mediocre CC, shooting phase meh (wow we have storm bolters) poor stratagem, horrible relics, and :cussting special weapons. We are excellent only in one thing. Die.

 

I can't find the last version of the feedback to GW, if someone knows where it is, please, add a link here.

[Corvus Fortis]

This is the last thread I could find about GW feedback:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/346397-new-feedback-mail-to-gw/

 

There is another 2017 thread where you can find some thoughts too:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/341788-feedback-to-gw/

 

I said a lot about GK problems in the past, but want to repeat some statements:

 

1. Gk doesn't have staying power. Because of high costs GK cannot deploy many wounds and has the same thoughness/save Regular marines and many other cheaper units have. Every PA unit suffers from it and GKs have ones of the most expensive non-character PA units.

 

2. GK cannot kill effectively. Yes, GK have bolter drill, but nothing else. Smite spam often meets screening chaff and even when don’t – they are just a couple mortal wounds that are more a support then primary tool to kill. Both Vortex and Purge Soul are too random to be reliable and only 1 cast per phase anyway. GK PA units only have 1 attack in close combat (2 on justicar) forcing us to take falchions on every model. While terminators have 2 attacks, pont-by-point they are almost the same as 10 strikes for the same cost. Only units that are effective in close combat are paladins, doomglaives and dreadknights. And they shine only against multi-wound vehicles or monsters with no high invulnerable save. Purifiers can, in theory, deal good damage but with only 3” smite they will never ever hit their target before they are dead. Special weapons are a joke – best damage is d3 on psilener, while it has strength 4 and only 6 shots and very low price save it. Both psycannons and incinerators are almost as expensive, as a GK model and strike squads need to sacrifice force weapon to take them. GK even lack other chapters’ long ranged fire support – they do not have Laser Devastators, Primaris, Predators, Whirlwinds, etc. Our only effective AV option is Venerable Dreadnought. Stormravens were good once, but there are too many ways to bring them down turn 1-2 now.  

 

3. No reliable source of delivery. Matched play restrictions allows only half of units to be in reserves and new FAQ hits us even harder (especially, power level restriction part). Space Marines’ vehicles are too fragile and not fast enough to carry GK in operational range. Only stormravens and teleporting land raiders can do it somewhat reliably, but they are very expensive and vulnerable to opponent’s first turn. Combined with lack of strong long-ranged options, GK literally gives opponent 1-2 turns of doing whatever he wants. And even when GK arrive, they cannot strike hard enough to compensate this. To army, which operates in 24” and less range, reliable delivery is the key element.

 

4. Relics and Warlord Traits are outdated. After AM and Eldar Codecies GW put a new standard to power level. They were much more cautious with strong stuff in the beginning. As a result, GK traits and relics are very poor. There are only 1 good trait and 2 okay relics.  Domina Liber Daemonica is literally the worst relic in the game – it is situational, has low range and its effect doesn’t really matter. I haven’t ever seen a relic as bad as it is.

 

5. CP and Stratagems. New battalion rules gave us a relief with 2 more CP to use (and this is a lot for GK). However, this force us to take Battalion even harder than before. Moreover, we are still one of a few armies that doesn’t have a way to return CP in course of a game, while being one that needs it most – 9 CP is maximum we can have without allies on 2k points. Most stratagems are very situational, like tactical flexibility or finest hour. Good stratagems are expensive too – psybolt ammunition, psychic onslaught and heed the prognosticars all cost 2 CP and all of them critical to GK. In addition, they are not amazing. They are only good. So we have to burn 6 CP out of 9, so our weapons are good somehow and our GMNDK don’t die instantly.

 

This is list of main problems in short. There are, of course, many inner balance problems but personaly I’m okay with spamming 3-4 units and several characters – most codecies do this right now anyway, but they, at least, can compete.

 

Here are my suggestions how to fix some problems.

 

If your army is battleforged, all GREY KNIGHTS models gain the following special rules:

 

Rites of Teleportation: If a GREY KNIGHTS unit comes out of reserves, all models in this units can immediately move d6”.

 

This is an old rule from 7^th editions and I feel, that this thing is what we lack most. Our charges are unreliable and sceening units keep us from important units. With this additional movement, GK can shoot what they want and hide in close combat the turn they came out. I’d even have it instead of brotherhood of psykers (which can be a 1 CP stratagem instead). BoP bonus is nice but nothing more than that. Additionally, this will make Incinerators effective without further adjustments.

 

Psybolt Ammunition has to be army-wide rule or a piece of equipment.

 

Psychic Onslaught, Heed the Prognosticars and Aegis – all have to be 1 CP, so they can be used for 2-3 turns and won’t burn all our CP on turn 1.

Truesilver Armor has to be general rule for vehicles.

 

Mental Focus (1-2 CP): Use this stratagem when GREY KNIGHTS unit successfully manifests psychic power. Immediately apply effect to another GREY KNGIHTS unit in the range of psychic power. You can spend additional 2 CP instead of 1 to apply it to two other units rather than one.

 

I think, this is balanced solution to Matched Play restrictions. Mental Focus is close to useless with current rules anyway. This stratagem can buff close combat strength, shooting, survivability and movement – dependent on psychic power cast.

 

Warlord Traits

1. Demon Slayer – nothing changed.

2. Hammer of Righteousness – the same, but in effect when was charged or performed heroic intervention too – like similar traits of other factions.

3. Unyielding Anvil – roll d6 each time a model from 6” of warlord flees or loses last wound – on a roll of 6 it doesn’t flee or lose wound. Another C’n’P from other factions. It will add just a bit staying power and could be used more often than never like it is now.

4. First to the Fray – no changes.

5. Nemesis Lord – no changes.

6. Lore Master – no changes.

 

Relics

1. Fury of Deimos – the same but can target characters even they are not the closest model. It had Precision Shots in 7^th. Being just an SB with +1 shot, strength and AP doesn’t make it that good. It is OK but no one will take it over Cuirass, for example.

2. Destroyer of Crys’yllix – no changes.

3.Banner of Refining Flame – no changes.

4.Soul Glaive – no changes.

5.Domina Liber Demonica – bearer can cast additional psychic power each turn. Additionaly, reroll psychic test rolls of 1. Another one from 7^th edition. IDK why they changes it so much. With old rules applied, it will be much more useful than it is now.

6. Cuirass of Sacrifice – no changes.

 

Special Weapons:

1. Psycannon goes to D2. It will be a light vehicle/heavy infantry killer as it was once. Point drop needed.

2. Psilencer – wound rolls of 6+ resolved at AP-4/instantly deals d3 mortal wounds and attack sequence ends.  In 7^th it was a gamble weapon and the only ranged weapon with force. Now there are lots of weapons, that does multiple wounds and psilencer is no longer unique. It is just bolter with 6 shots and d3 damage which is heavy in addition. He is taken now only because of low price, so it can be spammed.

3. Incinerator – point drop. It is one of the best flamer weapons in game but flamers suffer generally. Return of Rites of Teleportation would’ve solve the problem.

4. Heavy Incinerator – ok weapon but way too expensive.

 

Units:

First – all GK units get +1 attack (at least, PA units). This will make us actually good in melee and resolve falchion spam problem.

1. Castellan Crowe – gains Champion’s stances and every to-wound roll of 6+ in close combat resolved at AP-3. Again, old rules have to be back. In 7^th he used to have smash that somehow mitigated his AP problems. Now he does OK in close combat that GK does well in range – destroy hordes.

2. Stern – Zone of Banishment does 3 mortal wounds in range to all daemons, not just the target. At least, he can be a strong daemon killer.

3. Brotherhood Champion – gets teleport strike. Seriously, why don’t they have it?

4. Librarian – knows 3 powers and casts 3 powers. Has access to libraries discipline. Librarians now useless in GK armies. Back than in 7^th only they could generate psychic powers (and GMs IIRC). The only thing they can provide now is a better deny in 12” – this is not enough to take this expensive HQ.

5. Purifiers – get back fearless and +1 attack. Purifying flame deals d3 mortal wounds to all enemy units in 6”. In 7^th Cleansing Flame was powerful because affected units in area and dealt a lot of attacks with S5 which could be painful when used properly. Now purifiers are expensive, hard to deliver and not more survivable than a strike squad. With such changes and BroCap they can deal some serious damage before dying – thing they cannot achieve with current rules.

6. Purgation Squad – get relentless. Seriously, they are just strike squads with 4 HW without teleport strike. And HWs are not good, as I mentioned.

7. Nemesis Dreadknight – gets relentless (it suffers a lot from Heavy on its weapons). Force Shielding needs a rework – I’d like it to work like Necron quantum shields.

 

But NDK needs at least 4++ base or he will be outclassed by Grand Master NDK.  

 

Other stuff is from SM codex and suffers from the same problems.

 

That is what comes to mind first. I am sure GW will not change how power armor works. But they can give us more striking power to compensate.

 

There is no chances that GK will become strong after CA but I want it to be playable at least (mono-deathwatch level with minimal allies).

[Capt. Mytre]

I've been writing up a codex of my own for some time, something I do when I'm bored. It isn't complete, but I'll try and get the gist written down here. Consider all values are estimates, they are not balanced but more indicative of the how fleshed out I'd like the codex and would like to see this across all armies.

 

Game Wide Balance Issues:

• CP generation and availabilities to armies - CP needs to be awarded based on power level/points per game. Per 100 points/5 PL, you gain 1 CP. Each detachment subtracts CP based on how specific it is, ie, a Vanguard would subtract more than a Battalion/Brigade etc. The more detachments you have also acts as a multiplier to this. For the average army at 2k points, you would expect to have ~18 CP for a mono-army (1 detachment), 13 CP for a double detachment, 9 CP for triple etc. This buffs mono-armies, stops farming of CP via min detachments, encourages unit sizes being larger than minimum, discourages souping for the most powerful of each army etc. Obviously certain armies like Dark Eldar multi-patrols, Assassins/Inq would have special rules to not break them.
• Assault needs to be reworked, specifically so that units cannot become immune to being charged just because there is no space to fight in right next to them. Same applies to large vehicles being unable to assault a unit on the second floor of ruins.
• Flamers are almost entirely useless, give them stat-lines like so:
  • Hand Flamer: 6” D3 shots Str 4 AP0 1dmg
  • Flamer: 8” D6 shots Str 4 AP-1 1dmg
  • Heavy Flamer: 10” 2D3 shots Str 5 AP-1 1dmg
  • Vehicle “extra” heavy flamers (Flamestorm cannon etc): 12” 2D3 shots Str 6 AP-2 2dmg
  • “Torrent” heavy flamers: 16” 2D6 shots Str 6 AP -2 2dmg
  • NOTE: Flamer weapons can always shoot at overwatching targets, regardless of range.
• Terminator are useless due to expense, ease of deaths and cannot engage in combat to make use of their most powerful weapon.
  • Limit advances to D3"
  • Can advance after DSing
  • Their shooting weapons become assault when advancing
  • Subtract 1 damage from all incoming damage, to a minimum of 1.
  • Can charge after advancing.

 

GK specific issues:

• The codex has poor external-codex balance.
  • The army is not survivable enough, given how elite and expensive each unit is in terms of points. Grey Knights should be expensive, but their increase in points needs to be balanced between their lethality and survivability. Grey Knights are not expendable lore wise, they should be a tough nut to crack, even simple units like Strike Squads.
  • Grey Knight don’t deal well with high armour saves and toughness values at range, relying on CC to deal damage. Due to the way the basic rules of the game play, CC is already at a disadvantage. This comes down to the availability of Screening, Fall Back, Overwatch, low chance of success of deepstrike + charge combo as well as further nerfs to first turn deepstrike almost entirely neutering GKs abilities to deal with these kind of threats first turn. CC is unreliable. Other armies have special rules that allow them to negate this issue to an extent (Orks/Tyranids), GK  do not. Either GK need some reliable method to get into CC with these units, or provide options to deal with these threats outside of CC (the psychic phase would be a poor method for this due to the fact it doesn’t scale with game size).
  • GK suffer due to the basic rules being against them, specifically the matched play ones. Limits to the psychic phase and deepstrike hurt them far more than any other army.
• The codex has poor internal-codex balance.
  • Multiple units suffer being completely uncompetitive because of price, their abilities or both.
  • Multiple units and weapons suffer role overlap, meaning there’s always one of the two options that are just straight up better choices.
• The codex has poor fluff to rule conversion.
  • Many units are not true to their lore. They are meant to be seen as the elite specialist version of Space Marines, while in game they are just the same unit armed slightly differently and at times, armed with inferior weapons.
  • Lack of implementation of the Brotherhoods.

 

Core ideals of the Grey Knights and what they should be designed around.

• Mid to Close range focus
  • Allow mobility via using Advancing and still allowing shooting at decreased effectiveness. Make all infantry weapons assault or become assault when the unit advances.
  • Allow the unit to advance after deepstriking (limited to D3).
  • Limit weapon ranges to max mid range, 24”.
• All psykers
  • Give all units in the army the psyker ability, aside from those that don’t make sense to have it, ie Servitors.
  • Give, where suitable, special rules that make certain psychic powers more powerful when a certain unit manifests a power on themselves/others.
  • Increase powers available or reduce the limits on psychic powers so that they can actually use psychic powers that their built in costs pay for.
• Anti-Demon
  • Instead of having abilities that specifically work just against demons, have abilities that are effective verse demons while also being potentially useful against a wide variety of other armies. For example, subtract 1 from invuln saves in melee with Nemesis weapons.
• Elite army
  • Increase the point cost across the board or maintain them where adequate, while equally increasing offensive and defensive abilities. Allow a greater degree of customisation so that the army can be fine tuned.
• Alpha Strike
  • Include abilities that allow Grey knights to alpha strike. Consider exemption to the “Deep Strike” limitations. If sufficient offensive/defensive power is reached, decrease the power of alpha strike via limiting it.

 

Examples of special rules

• Aegis Armour - When this unit is damaged, it may roll a dice for each point of damage taken. On a 6+, it ignores that damage. If the damage inflicted occurred because of a psychic power and/or a unit with the DEMON keyword, it ignores the damage on a 5+. In addition, this unit cannot fail moral checks.
• The Shrouding - Your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls when shooting at GREY KNIGHT units further than 24” away.
• Into the Fray - Units with the GREY KNIGHT faction can advance and still charge. If they have arrived by Teleport Strike/Shunt/Gate of Infinity, they may still advance, but limited to D3”.
• Nemesis of Demons - Close combat attacks dealt by this model reduce the targets invulnerable save by 1. If the final result after all modifiers is 7+, the target does not have an invulnerable save. This special rule does not stack with other instances of itself from any source.
• Teleport Strike - Instead of deploying like normal, a unit with this special rule may deploy into a Grey Knight teleporter platform. At the end of any movement phase, the unit may teleport anywhere onto the battlefield as long as it is further than 9” from an enemy unit, is still within coherency and not on impassable terrain.
• Tempered Psykers: - GREY KNIGHT units ignore the Matched Play restriction Psychic Focus, and instead can attempt to recast a power with a +1 to the required Warp Charge value to succeed for each attempted cast of the same power that phase. In addition, when units with the GREY KNIGHT faction cast Smite, it only ever deals 1 mortal wound, the range of Smite is limited to 12”, does not deal more damage on a 10+ and cannot perils. GREY KNIGHT faction also ignore the Smite increasing cast requirement, they always require 5+ to make a successful cast.

 

Additional Psychic Powers:

 

These powers are designed around being debuffs against each chaos god, while also being situationally useful verse other armies. Additionally, you could have four more powers that work apply buffs on GK units that work well against these chaos gods.

• Enfeeble: Until the beginning of your next turn, units affected by this power subtract 1 from each models total attacks, to a minimum of 1.
• Fragility: Until the beginning of your next turn, units affected by this power cannot make rolls that negate wounds other than Armour or Invulnerable Saves. (eg, Disgusting Resilient)
• Vulnerability: Until the beginning of your next turn, units affected by this power must subtract 1 from all save rolls.
• Lethargy: Until the beginning of your next turn, units affected by this power always go last during the fight phase, even if they have a rule that means they go first.

 

Example new statline for Castellan Crowe:

CASTELLAN CROWE

Statline:

M 7” WS 2+ BS 2+ S4 T4 W5 A5 L9 Sv 2+

                 

Gear:

• Psybolt Knights Storm Bolter (SB that can becomes assault if you advance + psybolt ammunition)
• The Black Blade of Antwyr (Melee User AP0 Dmg 2)
• Frag Grenades
• Krak Grenades
• Psyk-out Grenades
• Iron Halo

Unit Composition:

• Castellan Crowe. Only one unit may be included in an army.

Psyker:

• Knows 2 (Sanctic + Smite)

• Deny 2

• Use 2

Rules: Aegis Armour, Tempered Psykers, Nemesis of Demons, Into the Fray

• Iron Halo: Grants this unit a 4+ invulnerable save.

• The Black Blade of Antwyr: While Crowe does not attempt to use the hidden power of the blade, lest he be tempted by corruption, Crowe martial skills allow him to slip the blade through the slightest chinks in an opponent's armour and strike true. For wound rolls of 6+, armour saves cannot be made.

• Cleansing Flame: When Crowe successfully casts smite, instead of targeting the closest model, it targets all units within 6” that are not friendly GREY KNIGHT units. Each unit takes D3 mortal wounds.

• Chamber of Purity: When this unit makes a Aegis Armour save, add +1 to the rolls.

 

Example Stratagems:

 

Warp Quake: 4cp - Once per game, effects all enemy units within 10” of a unit arriving via Teleport Strike. Rolling for each unit separately, roll a dice for each model in the unit. Each result of a 6 equals one mortal wound. CHARACTER units may pass this wound off onto any non-character units that are within 6” of them.

Spirit of Defiance: 2cp - at any time, choose a unit that shares any Faction keyword with a GREY KNIGHT unit within 12”, that unit automatically pass Morale tests until the end of the turn.

Counter-Charge: 3cp - during the opponent's charge phase, you may use this ability after they have declared and resolved their first charge, or immediately if they don’t declare any charges. You may charge with one of your units.

Mission Critical Arrival: 3cp - use before your chosen unit arrives from reserves or is redeployed via Gate of Infinity or Shunt. That unit may deploy as stated, but the minimum range from enemy models is change to greater than 1”. Deploy the models, then roll a D6 for each model deploying this way. On a 1, that model is slain.

Engage Flying Threat: 1cp - during your charging phase, this stratagem allows any unit with a Personal Teleporter to Charge a Flying model even if the opponents rules state it cannot be charged.

 

 

Yes, I'm aware this is a pipe dream.

[Waking Dreamer]

Don't have much time today, but I'll leave my quick suggestion about tweaks to our unique GK special weapons:

Psycannon: needs multiple damage per-shot output to be considered a decent anti-vehicle/monster weapon. So: S7 heavy 4 ap-1 Dmg 2

Heavy Psycannon: Consider this cost 30 points for 6 shots at 24". The twin autocannon has the same profile and price for 4 shots at 48" range. Keeping things simple, one could say since the heavy Psycannon is a twin autocannon with only half the range at the same price...to make it "equal" it should have double the shots i.e. 8 shots at 24", sounds fair?

BUT

GW probably wants to keep the 6 shot profile they established in 7th so...to tweak the H.psycannon so that it's more in line with a 24" twin autocannon at the same price....buff it by increasing its AP on a To-Wound roll of 6+. It's the closest thing we have to our 7th edition rending right? GW might better accept that, since they did that in 7th ed. already. So for both:

- Psycannon: 24" Heavy 4 S7 ap-1 Dmg 2 (on a To Wound roll of a 6+, AP increases by 2 e.g. AP-1 becomes AP-3).
- Heavy Psycannon: 24" Heavy 6 S7 ap-1 Dmg 2 (on a To Wound roll of a 6+, AP increases by 2 e.g. AP-1 becomes AP-3).

^ The AP buff also has good synergy with Psychic Onslaught, giving your Psycannons AP-4 on a hot roll.

Gattling / Psilencer: Our anti-horde/multi-wound Infantry weapon. The most cost-effective special weapons so far, but would get overshadowed after any Psycannon buffs. To keep it effective with its current role while keeping the same price, I suggest increasing its weight of dice / fire style.

BUT

If GW still want to keep their 6/12 shot profiles like 7ed. then give it as a special ability. On a To Hit roll of a 6+ the hit is considered 2 hits instead of 1. Rolling 12 or even 24 dice (purgation squad), nice odds for 6s there. Keeps the Psilencers about quantity even at the max. 24", with an average of dmg 2, potentially 3 for an unsaved wound...it threatens mass infantry and elites at a range double that of our stormbolter at their most effective (within 12"). So for both:

- Psilencer: 24" Heavy 6 S4 AP0 Dmg D3 (On a To Hit roll of a 6+ the hit is considered 2 hits instead of 1).
- Gattling Psilencer: 24" Heavy 12 S4 AP0 Dmg D3 (On a To Hit roll of a 6+ the hit is considered 2 hits instead of 1).

^ The changes suggested here are very subtle, but I think it's the right blend of GWs way of thinking, while making our weapons definitely better.

[Trevak Dal]

I have a question, sorta related. So normal strike squads only have 1 attack but can do d3 damage, does that spill over or does those d3 wounds only go on one enemy model?

 

I'm guessing (taking the pessimistic route) that they don't...

 

Regarding psybolt ammo, do the Deathwatch have to pay command points to use their special issue ammo?

 

That should be built into GKs. And EVERYTHING should be able to natively deep strike. Dreds, tanks, purifiers-EVERYTHING.

[Corvus Fortis]

If damage of nemesis force weapons were going to other models in unit, no one would complain that GK bad in melee. Or they would, because it is still not enough to deal with threats.

 

My strike squad once was massacred by 5 intercessors because of sheer number of attacks. I rolled bad on saves, tbh, but that is the point of many attacks - saves will be failed eventually, And it will work equally good against many targets and single model. GK will do good only against mutliwound models in close combat.

 

DW, IMO, is a good example of specialized armies. They have bonuses against xenos in form of stratagems and do not need to pay for special rules that they won't use in 50% of games. Mission tactics and SIA works against everything. And there are several xenos armies, while only 1 demonic. Chaos can bring allied demons, but this is half of an army at best.

 

GW should make decision if they want GK to be anti-demonic part of mixed imperium or effective army by themselves. If the former - give us abilites that uttery destroy demons and make regular marines in other aspects. If the later - go Deathwatch way. Now GK are neither.

[Shinkosh]

I have a question, sorta related. So normal strike squads only have 1 attack but can do d3 damage, does that spill over or does those d3 wounds only go on one enemy model?

 

I'm guessing (taking the pessimistic route) that they don't...

 

Regarding psybolt ammo, do the Deathwatch have to pay command points to use their special issue ammo?

 

That should be built into GKs. And EVERYTHING should be able to natively deep strike. Dreds, tanks, purifiers-EVERYTHING.

 

The damage done is 'normal' damage, so it does not spill from model to model.  If you stick 3 damage into a CSM, he is really dead but his 9 buddies are just pissed at you.  If it was mortal wounds, it would spill over.

 

Regards the ammo, Deathwatch can select special ammo on the fly and for free and for each unit, while GK's have to burn 2 CP for one unit to use Psybolt ammo.

 

Also, since we are mentioning odd things that are missing, has anyone noticed that all loyal marines get a version of the 'death to traitors' stratagem (roll a 6 to hit in melee and get an extra attack) with some chapters having a 4+ version for enemies they really hate (Space Wolves and 1kSons), but GK's dont even get a 6+ Stratagem for additional attacks on daemons?

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I merged the "Collecting Feedback for GW" topic started by Fulkes on 6 September with the existing topic (that had fallen to page 2).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

GK should be the Imperial equivalent to Thousand Sons... and just as good.

[STTAB]

Can't remember the podcast (I drive 2 hours a day) but one of the guys who was a playtester dropped a little hint that grey Knights had fixes in chapter approved.

 

The next chapter approved is probably already off to print in China so we might not see anything in the September FAQ.

[Corvus Fortis]

All the rumors say nothing for SM factions in September, but large update in new CA.

[Panzer]

GW already admitted that all Space Marines, GK included, need to get taken a look at a while ago so we should definitely expect at least something for Space Marines in general, GK included, with the next CA.

[techsoldaten]

GW already admitted that all Space Marines, GK included, need to get taken a look at a while ago so we should definitely expect at least something for Space Marines in general, GK included, with the next CA.

 

Yes, and this was quoted from an interview with a Design Director. So it's not some baseless rumor, the question is whether or not the changes will be enough to want to play them.

 

Holding off on building out the rest of my GK army until I see CA. I have 3 boxes of PAGKs that could become interceptors / purifiers and don't know how to build them until I see the changes.

 

At the very least, I am expecting better smite, at least on par with Thousand Sons.

[Panzer]

 

GW already admitted that all Space Marines, GK included, need to get taken a look at a while ago so we should definitely expect at least something for Space Marines in general, GK included, with the next CA.

 

Yes, and this was quoted from an interview with a Design Director. So it's not some baseless rumor, the question is whether or not the changes will be enough to want to play them.

 

Holding off on building out the rest of my GK army until I see CA. I have 3 boxes of PAGKs that could become interceptors / purifiers and don't know how to build them until I see the changes.

 

At the very least, I am expecting better smite, at least on par with Thousand Sons.

 

 

I honestly think all Marine Codexes need a serious re-work from the core and Primaris getting slowly added to it is exactly that so all I'm hoping for is the Marine Codex becoming competetive again. It won't be a super great Codex but if Marine player can play their army without having to lose against more serious lists then it'll be fine for a while.

Everything in the Strike Squad box will stay mostly the same unit but with different weapon options, everything in the Terminator box will stay mostly the same unit but with slight changes and Stratagems, WL traits and Relics being mostly underwhelming will stay mostly the same . The CA won't change that so the Codex at it's core will stay the same with the same issues. Point tweaks and buffing the one or other weapon and Stratagem cost will be all we're going to see. Maybe some additional Stratagems, WL traits and/or Relics for each faction as well if we're lucky.

[Corvus Fortis]

Hold fingers crossed for new psychic powers.

[Danarc]

Mah, I'm not optimistic. We'll have some point drop and few more. Maybe the third page of stratagems. 

 

Probably the same for SM. 

[Holier Than Thou]

We'll get a token point drop, something useless like 1 point off Terminators, then GMNDKs will go up by 20.

 

Same as usual.

[Ichar]

What I would like to see happen (not complaints, just things I think would help):

 

Terminators:  Toughness 5.  -1 to damage taken with a minimum of 1.  (This should be for regular Space marines as well)

 

Aegis of the emperor:  Same as the Custodes.

 

All bolt weapons become Psybolt weapons.  Psybolt stratagem becomes Enhanced Psybolt with same effect.

Psychic Onslaught for all psychic weapons (Psycannon, Psilencer).  Psychic Onslaught stratagem has same effect.

 

Either increased attacks on troops, or Nemesis weapon damage spills over.

 

Smite similar to Thousand Sons.  Increase Cleansing Flame range, but make it do less damage the further out it goes.  Or maybe it could go back to a nova effect (that would be AWESOME).

 

Allow the use of the Librarius Discipline.  Or as was stated above, allow multi-casts of Sanctic with increasing difficulty.

 

Point drops for our more expensive units (although points are not as much of an issue if other things get fixed).

 

Rework Psilencer and Psycannon so that they each have their uses.  Right now, IMHO, Psilencer is just better.

 

Find some way to make a distinction between units and each unit viable so that each has its use.

 

Allow innate deepstrike on Purifiers.

 

Allow at least a few more FW units (may be fixed with Talons of the Emperor). 

 

(I am really hoping that Talons of the Emperor is being held back to account for incoming changes for us). 

[Shinkosh]

Not to sound needy, but I think aegis of the Emperor should be a 5+ save on psychic MW.

 

The Custodians might be big E's favourites, but Grey Knights have the training and ability in that area.