How to make GK work with Beta DS rule

[Shagah]

 

Most people go with Vendread with twin las and Missle Launcher for a backline beasty. They can wreck stuff with Astral Aim. You CAN still take a dread with two twin autocannons, but it's an index option, so they don't get psychic powers, which is a loss to the codex version you simply don't want as GK. 

 

 

Not entirely true.  For twin autocannons the Dread itself is the codex Dread so you do get Psychic powers, but the weapons are as per the codex (see Designers Commentary page 6).

[Danarc]

 

 

Most people go with Vendread with twin las and Missle Launcher for a backline beasty. They can wreck stuff with Astral Aim. You CAN still take a dread with two twin autocannons, but it's an index option, so they don't get psychic powers, which is a loss to the codex version you simply don't want as GK. 

 

 

Not entirely true.  For twin autocannons the Dread itself is the codex Dread so you do get Psychic powers, but the weapons are as per the codex (see Designers Commentary page 6).

 

exactly. you can take vendread w twin auto cannon. Its options are the same of a normal vendread and its cost is the cost in the codex plus the auto cannon cost in the index.

[Helycon]

You are indeed correct. Still, I'd prefer the loadout I posted anyway :)

[Corvus Fortis]

 

3 stormravens will not help. With 1k points invested just in them, you will be, most likely, losing on maelstrom. And a threat of being wiped because of FAQ Sudden Death. Any army now has good antivehicle. Our only unit that can stand heavy shooting is GMNDK. I used to bring 2 GMNDK and SR so my opponent cannot kill them all. And if they don't kill GMNDK they pretty much can wipe out all his army on their own. But now, because you cannot heed+sanctuary turn 1, GMNDK become way more vulnerable.

 

By the way, new rule that says you lose all effects on units that "teleports" in any way affects Heed the Prognosticars too? The FAQ is only about modifying characteristics but HtP increses only roll itself. What do you think?

3 Stormravens is not as easily dealt with for most armies. They will generally die when you take them alone, but stripping that many wounds at -1 to hit and T7 is not happening very often. They have a massive threatrange and with Hurricane Bolters you can easily clear for drops. Take some anti tank to kill those dangerous units and make sure they can't simply kill the remaining ravens as easy. If you use PAGK inside of them, they won't die. If they kill one of them, they spill their guts, so boots on the ground will rarely be an issue, unless you miss unloading them.

 

Stop seeing bears know the road all the bloody time and just play some games!

 

 

It can be hard to kill a stormraven in a small point game, but not at 2k, where your opponent can bring 30 reapers, crimson hunters, several executioner commanders, shadowsword or ton of lascannons with Guilly\chapter master. If you do not have the first turn and depoyment is not Hammer and Anvil, 1-2 of them 100% dead. -1 to-hit means nothing with rerolls to-hit which everyone has or Inescapable accuracy of Reapers. SR can be severely damaged even from dying devastators under relic banner that makes them shoot on 3+ before removing. Ok, you have the first turn, you even blasted a vehicle or two with stormstrike, double meltas and lascannons from each stromraven. Well, than, depending on opponent, you have chances. But, for example, something like DRs will be sitting in serpents which is not easy to crack and you will waste hurricanes' fire somewhere else. Guard has a lot of chaff and they don't really care if it will die to bolters. You won't be killing much of their tanks too because of t8. Better with sm, but they will most likely be sitting in cover too. And on t2 you either lose your -1 to-hit or good postions to be in Draigo's aura\shooting melta's. Psychic-heavy armies will be happy with such lists because you don't have much DtW-capable units on the board. And something like-triple tzeentch daemon princes will eat this list alive. If triple SR were good, space marines would use them way more often. But even with their superior ways to support them they don't. 

 

And I was playing 40k almost every sunday since last october and I know well how durable a stormraven really is.

[Aothaine]

 

 

3 Stormravens is not as easily dealt with for most armies. They will generally die when you take them alone, but stripping that many wounds at -1 to hit and T7 is not happening very often. They have a massive threatrange and with Hurricane Bolters you can easily clear for drops. Take some anti tank to kill those dangerous units and make sure they can't simply kill the remaining ravens as easy. If you use PAGK inside of them, they won't die. If they kill one of them, they spill their guts, so boots on the ground will rarely be an issue, unless you miss unloading them.

Stop seeing bears know the road all the bloody time and just play some games!

 

It can be hard to kill a stormraven in a small point game, but not at 2k, where your opponent can bring 30 reapers, crimson hunters, several executioner commanders, shadowsword or ton of lascannons with Guilly\chapter master. If you do not have the first turn and depoyment is not Hammer and Anvil, 1-2 of them 100% dead. -1 to-hit means nothing with rerolls to-hit which everyone has or Inescapable accuracy of Reapers. SR can be severely damaged even from dying devastators under relic banner that makes them shoot on 3+ before removing. Ok, you have the first turn, you even blasted a vehicle or two with stormstrike, double meltas and lascannons from each stromraven. Well, than, depending on opponent, you have chances. But, for example, something like DRs will be sitting in serpents which is not easy to crack and you will waste hurricanes' fire somewhere else. Guard has a lot of chaff and they don't really care if it will die to bolters. You won't be killing much of their tanks too because of t8. Better with sm, but they will most likely be sitting in cover too. And on t2 you either lose your -1 to-hit or good postions to be in Draigo's aura\shooting melta's. Psychic-heavy armies will be happy with such lists because you don't have much DtW-capable units on the board. And something like-triple tzeentch daemon princes will eat this list alive. If triple SR were good, space marines would use them way more often. But even with their superior ways to support them they don't. 

 

And I was playing 40k almost every sunday since last october and I know well how durable a stormraven really is.

 

 

I agree with you about SRs not being able to rely on the -1 to hit. It just isn't enough. Ultramarines have Tiggy to give one SR -2 to be hit. But I really think we need to look at Rhinos at this point. Grey Knights are already too expensive to burn 400 points on a vehicle that is going to get popped first turn and strand half our units. If you're using them just to protect the units inside just use fortifications.

[Danarc]

I don’t think rhinos are useful for our “new” tactics. It’s a expansive box that die as soon as an opponent look at it. And can’t bring weapons. :(

[TheCastigator]

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/05/03/guest-tactica-grey-knights-in-a-post-faq-world/

 

Here’s a “great” tactics article from flg. Purgators, interceptors, storm hawks. Lol. Oh, also dreads. Ok then.

 

The codex is too inefficient, has lackluster stratagems and has bad relics. Screens will still be prevalent and gk don’t have the bodies or units to hold the midfield against anything with indirect fire. They will still badly suffer to smite, even with the nerf. At best they are a splash codex. They are supposed to be the most elite, best equipped chapter, and yet they have the most limited options. Massed storm bottlers and two or three dread knights will be an up hill battle -at best- against nids, eldar, Dark Eldar, chaos and guard. Getting tiny smite back doesn’t offset how limited the book is.

[Soder]

Recently I’ve been wanting to test out the idea of a purgation squad with astral aim inside an imperial bunker. It’s basically a cheaper rhino that can’t move. Ignoring LOS, anything within 24” radius around it is gonna get shot up. You might even be able to hide the bunker behind other LOS blocking terrain and be even more survivable. Thoughts?

[Capt. Mytre]

Recently I’ve been wanting to test out the idea of a purgation squad with astral aim inside an imperial bunker. It’s basically a cheaper rhino that can’t move. Ignoring LOS, anything within 24” radius around it is gonna get shot up. Thoughts?

 

It's only 24", not really that much range. You're better off just putting them somewhere in cover and doing the same thing. Also, you can't use astral aim while inside a transport.

[Soder]

 

 

Recently I’ve been wanting to test out the idea of a purgation squad with astral aim inside an imperial bunker. It’s basically a cheaper rhino that can’t move. Ignoring LOS, anything within 24” radius around it is gonna get shot up. Thoughts?

It's only 24", not really that much range. You're better off just putting them somewhere in cover and doing the same thing. Also, you can't use astral aim while inside a transport.

Ya makes sense though. Might make more sense if we had better range. Also the bunker isn’t a transport, it’s a fortification ;) I don’t actually know how those rules would interact.. I’ve never used fortifications before

[Danarc]

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/05/03/guest-tactica-grey-knights-in-a-post-faq-world/

 

Here’s a “great” tactics article from flg. Purgators, interceptors, storm hawks. Lol. Oh, also dreads. Ok then.

 

The codex is too inefficient, has lackluster stratagems and has bad relics. Screens will still be prevalent and gk don’t have the bodies or units to hold the midfield against anything with indirect fire. They will still badly suffer to smite, even with the nerf. At best they are a splash codex. They are supposed to be the most elite, best equipped chapter, and yet they have the most limited options. Massed storm bottlers and two or three dread knights will be an up hill battle -at best- against nids, eldar, Dark Eldar, chaos and guard. Getting tiny smite back doesn’t offset how limited the book is.

very lol.  I'm wondering if these people have ever played a game with GK.

[Helycon]

 

 

 

3 stormravens will not help. With 1k points invested just in them, you will be, most likely, losing on maelstrom. And a threat of being wiped because of FAQ Sudden Death. Any army now has good antivehicle. Our only unit that can stand heavy shooting is GMNDK. I used to bring 2 GMNDK and SR so my opponent cannot kill them all. And if they don't kill GMNDK they pretty much can wipe out all his army on their own. But now, because you cannot heed+sanctuary turn 1, GMNDK become way more vulnerable.

 

By the way, new rule that says you lose all effects on units that "teleports" in any way affects Heed the Prognosticars too? The FAQ is only about modifying characteristics but HtP increses only roll itself. What do you think?

3 Stormravens is not as easily dealt with for most armies. They will generally die when you take them alone, but stripping that many wounds at -1 to hit and T7 is not happening very often. They have a massive threatrange and with Hurricane Bolters you can easily clear for drops. Take some anti tank to kill those dangerous units and make sure they can't simply kill the remaining ravens as easy. If you use PAGK inside of them, they won't die. If they kill one of them, they spill their guts, so boots on the ground will rarely be an issue, unless you miss unloading them.

 

Stop seeing bears know the road all the bloody time and just play some games!

It can be hard to kill a stormraven in a small point game, but not at 2k, where your opponent can bring 30 reapers, crimson hunters, several executioner commanders, shadowsword or ton of lascannons with Guilly\chapter master. If you do not have the first turn and depoyment is not Hammer and Anvil, 1-2 of them 100% dead. -1 to-hit means nothing with rerolls to-hit which everyone has or Inescapable accuracy of Reapers. SR can be severely damaged even from dying devastators under relic banner that makes them shoot on 3+ before removing. Ok, you have the first turn, you even blasted a vehicle or two with stormstrike, double meltas and lascannons from each stromraven. Well, than, depending on opponent, you have chances. But, for example, something like DRs will be sitting in serpents which is not easy to crack and you will waste hurricanes' fire somewhere else. Guard has a lot of chaff and they don't really care if it will die to bolters. You won't be killing much of their tanks too because of t8. Better with sm, but they will most likely be sitting in cover too. And on t2 you either lose your -1 to-hit or good postions to be in Draigo's aura\shooting melta's. Psychic-heavy armies will be happy with such lists because you don't have much DtW-capable units on the board. And something like-triple tzeentch daemon princes will eat this list alive. If triple SR were good, space marines would use them way more often. But even with their superior ways to support them they don't.

 

And I was playing 40k almost every sunday since last october and I know well how durable a stormraven really is.

If you're saying T8 is a problem for melta, missiles and las, you're talking nonsense. It's exactly what they're for, especially las with S9. Very few armies have better weapons with the threatrange a Stormraven has.

 

And if you don't have DR, you won't be able to ignore the -1 to hit most of the time. You're projecting it on ONE unit which is a hard counter. Saying a hard counter wins the matchup, is stating that a breadknife is used to cut bread. Of course it is.

[Corvus Fortis]

I'm wondering if these people have ever played a game with GK.

 

 

Probably against a chaos army with Chaos lord, 10 cultists, 3 chaos space marines squads, defiler and a forgefiend. Against such lists GK are superpowerful. 

 

If you're saying T8 is a problem for melta, missiles and las, you're talking nonsense. It's exactly what they're for, especially las with S9. 

 

 

Lascannons yes, but there are only 6 of them. Let's assume, all of them hit, because Draigo is nearby and all rerolls were successfull. 4 of them wounds on average. If no saves are made, it will, on average, blow 1 leman russ. But meltas and missiles will only wound on 4+ and there is no way to give it reroll. So, on average, only 3 missiles and 3 meltas will wound. It may blow another leman russ. There is still another one and a baneblade-type tank or even more commanders full and healthy. Not counting lascannon teams, MT command squads in reserves, etc, etc. Add here failed rerolls, lucky 6+, unlucky damage rolls, overkills. And getting draigo's aura for all 3 stormravens can be uneasy as well. And yes, this is assuming you had the first turn. 

 

Very few armies have better weapons with the threatrange a Stormraven has.

 

 

Literally every army has them. 48 range weapons, melta-drops, fast flying units. With new FAQs some of the got nerfed, but that doesn't make stormraven exceptional. 

 

And if you don't have DR, you won't be able to ignore the -1 to hit most of the time.

 

 I pointed out that DRs are only one units. The key is rerolls to hit that every army has now. As well is +1 to-hit stratagems or casts, anti-fly weapons and many ways to mitigate it. I used SR always in combination with GMNDK because my opponent had to choose - focus all firepower on GMNDK with 3++ or shoot SR and then GMNDK will certainly charge T2. In fact, sometimes even this strategy fail and I lose both GMNDK and SR on turn 1. Stormravens are good transport\fire support but not an army in itself like GMNDK (which is also questionable).

[STTAB]

On average you'd need 12 SM lascannons to down a storm raven. 9 if they are rerolling 1s to hit, 1s to wound

 

Either that or you do half your army as allies on the board. Dark Angels have some durable options with Azrael and darkshroud. BA can get a 5+++ relic banner for infantry. A land Raider Excelsior with warlord traits and relics to improve survivability.

 

I'm still toying with scions/inquisition alpha strike with Valkyries. Really not sure what way to go with it.

[Corvus Fortis]

Good SM not only will have rerolls 1's to-hit and wound but Guilly or Chapter Master for full rerolls. Bringing about 16-20 lascannons for 2k for Space Marine player not a problem at all. And if you want to take 3 stormravens with Allies, why take GK stormravens? About 1100 points of stormravens + 900 points of allies? Yes, that is a 100% GK army. Play full DA or full SM, would be much better.

[Panzer]

Who the hell brings 16-20 Lascannons in a 2k match unless he specifically tailors his list against vehicle lists? That's just riddiculous. If you argue that way then no vehicle ever will be worth it lol

[STTAB]

My space marines are my own inquisition themed chapter so I can be versatile with chapter tactics. Inquisition themed storm ravens could fit GK or my SM. DA SRs with darkshroud would be the way to go but they don't have good jump options for slingshoting, which is the way I'd like to use them.

[Corvus Fortis]

Who the hell brings 16-20 Lascannons in a 2k match unless he specifically tailors his list against vehicle lists? That's just riddiculous. If you argue that way then no vehicle ever will be worth it lol

 

It is very common to take so much lascannons to counter vehicle-heavy lists. They perefere lascannon-missile launcher combo, but that is no much worse and more versatile. Hellblaster are very popular too. This is one of the reasons why mono-knights is not top army in 8th.

[Panzer]

 

Who the hell brings 16-20 Lascannons in a 2k match unless he specifically tailors his list against vehicle lists? That's just riddiculous. If you argue that way then no vehicle ever will be worth it lol

 

It is very common to take so much lascannons to counter vehicle-heavy lists. They perefere lascannon-missile launcher combo, but that is no much worse and more versatile. Hellblaster are very popular too. This is one of the reasons why mono-knights is not top army in 8th.

 

 

No, that many is not very common. That's overkill against any list that isn't extremely vehicle heavy. It's more than twice as much anti-tank as you should expect to face against the average Marine list. That's list tailoring against one specific kind of list and when that happens the list tailoring list obviously has the advantage.

[Helycon]

20 lascannons is 500 points. I call shenanigans.

[Corvus Fortis]

Sm army can pack up to 1500 points army with 24 (!) lascannons - 3 devastators with 4 and 3 predators with 4 each. In a club you easily can tailor. On tournament there will be probably, less lascannon - 12-14, but more autocannons, missile launchers and different kind of plasma, especially hellblasters. There are many ways to remove vehicles. 

[Panzer]

Yeah obviously but we aren't talking about tailored list since that's hardly representative for anything and the amount of anti-tank you suggested is just not common outside of heavily tailored lists.

[Corvus Fortis]

Opponent won't need to kill all 3 stormravens in 1 turn. As I mentioned, tournament lists still packs a lot of antivehicle, not just lascannons/. They had to deal with AM tank lists, which packs more wounds than 3 stormravens and have t8 on all tanks. Just check lists in GT thread. 

[Panzer]

Yeah and I'm talking not just about Lascannons as you can read above.

[Helycon]

The threat range of a Stormraven is much bigger than 48" due to it's movement. It's not just the range of it's weapons. 

 

Also, the 500 points I mentioned is JUST the weapons, not the platforms they come on. It adds up quickly. Tailored lists are just terrible examples here. The whole point is, that Stormravens can do most of it, whilst also transporting, AND they're difficult to kill when facing a balanced list, whilst also being fairly balanced. 

 

Shooting overcharged plasma against a Stormraven is dumb. It has -1 to hit, killing plasma-wielding dudes on both 1's AND 2's. Melta is easy to outrange before it's dangerous, especially with the movement a Stormraven has. Dropping them can no longer be done due to the beta FAQ rule. A Guard list is also hitting on 5's against a Stormraven, which is a lot of focused shooting. Crippling them is all it takes, since then, they'll hit on 6's. Besides that, when your flyers are in their grill, so are your GK, who can start swatting people with Nemesis Force Weapons.

 

Stormravens are difficult to deal with in numbers and can do pretty much anything you want. Are they expensive? Yes. They should be, exactly because of the above.