Alternating Activations - A fix for 40k?

[TheTrans]

Ok boys,

 

Talking on the local Melbourne warhammer page and we where talking about alternating activations.

 

I honestly feel in my heart of hearts that this would legit fix most of 40k's issues (going second, getting your army wiped off the board from shooting/multi DS shenaniganry that the FAQ beta is trying to fix.)

 

There is probably a myriad other ways to fix 40k as well, but I in all honesty reckon this is the simplest. Feel free to flame, shoot me down, poke holes everywhere, but honestly, let me know what you guys think, have some games see how bent/broken it is.

 

I whipped these up 10 minutes ago, let me know thoughts!

 

Basic Alternating Activations for 40k

This is an attempt to stop issues with 40k and the whole ‘your army is wiped out cos I got first turn’ style scenario.

 

Each player, starting with the player that has the initiative activates a unit at a time, a turn ends when all units in both players armies have activated.

 

It is a good idea to have a bottle cap, piece of paper, dorito or specifically made marker to place near each activated unit so you know who has and hasn’t activated.

 

When a unit activates, it follows all the normal rules for a turn as noted below, any exceptions will be noted.

 

1. Movement phase – Works as normal

2. Psychic Phase – Works as normal

3. Shooting Phase – Works as normal

4. Charge Phase – Works as normal

5. Fight Sequence – As normal, but only the units who’s activation it currently is allowed to attack (Can change, but if not enforced, some units could fight almost indefinitely a turn if they keep getting charged or are a multi combat).

6. Morale Phase – Test for Moral at the end of each joint turn (as there are no longer player turns), keep track of losses with dice next to units.

 

Special Rules:

With me! – Models with the Warlord Trait can allow a single unit within 12” to activate after they finish their activation. In game terms this would allow 2 consecutive activations from an army, the warlord goes, then calls “With me!” allowing another friendly unit that has not already activated to activate as normal.

 

Oddities:

Units with any ‘always strike first’ abilities like Lighting/Quicksilver reflexes etc may opt to use those abilities when an opposing players unit declares they will attack them in the Fight Phase. If they do so, and therefore get to attack first, they may do this, but in doing so this counts as their activation for the turn.

 

if in wrong section please move, but I feel this is a very broad, general discussion of 40k as well as a bit of 'home grown' crap mixed in.

Thanks in advance,

Nick

[SpecialIssue]

I have no idea why 40k hasn't done something similar way before honestly. It's simple and intuitive. Chess has been doing it for literally a thousand years. It prevents the match being decided on 1st turn, and forces players to think more in their moves, trying to anticipate the opponent, responding to situations - you know, actual tactics other than target priority. GWs own lord of the rings ruleset does something similiar with turns and is superior to 40k in that regard.

[Beta galactosidase]

You could do a pretty good rundown of all the discussion points of alternating activations.  People talk about MSU and superheavies, assault armies etc.

 

What I'd like to talk about is why the whole game has to be alternating.  For example, you could do a player turn moving all the models in one army, and then alternating activations for shooting or assault moves, and then start the player 2 turn for movement, then alternating activations for shooting and assault moves. 

 

Many things about having stock AA applying to every unit and every phase of the game could probably be too broadly applied.

[DuskRaider]

This is one of the reason I wish GW would move to using data cards as mandatory (and included) with the game. It also makes the game more interesting, with each player shuffling their hand independently and randomly drawing cards or mixing them all together and letting fate decide what's activated first. I've done this with other games and it makes them much more interesting.

[TheTrans]

I have no idea why 40k hasn't done something similar way before honestly. It's simple and intuitive. Chess has been doing it for literally a thousand years. It prevents the match being decided on 1st turn, and forces players to think more in their moves, trying to anticipate the opponent, responding to situations - you know, actual tactics other than target priority. GWs own lord of the rings ruleset does something similiar with turns and is superior to 40k in that regard.

Spot on mate. Stuff like "I could finish off that unit that has already activated, while it gets me the kill point, that unit could wait and I will instead try and hinder this other unit that is yet to activate" stuff like that!

 

 

 

You could do a pretty good rundown of all the discussion points of alternating activations.  People talk about MSU and superheavies, assault armies etc.

 

What I'd like to talk about is why the whole game has to be alternating.  For example, you could do a player turn moving all the models in one army, and then alternating activations for shooting or assault moves, and then start the player 2 turn for movement, then alternating activations for shooting and assault moves. 

 

Many things about having stock AA applying to every unit and every phase of the game could probably be too broadly applied.

Having a conversation with a bloke on a FB where his only current arguments are "But MSU will win as I can stall" and "but I won't be able to shoot the target 3 times, then assault it 3 times" which concerningly I think may show the mindset of the 'usual' 40ker haha

 

Another fellas suggested like breaking each phase up and alternating through that, which while more fair/interesting, definitely would take forever (10 units, 5-6 activations, ouch!!)

 

As to your talking point good sir, I can certainly see where you are coming from, but are you saying something like this:

Army 1 moves. Unit a army 1 shoots, Unit a army 2, unit b army 1 shoots, unit b army 2 shoots....army 2 moves etc?

 

 

This is one of the reason I wish GW would move to using data cards as mandatory (and included) with the game. It also makes the game more interesting, with each player shuffling their hand independently and randomly drawing cards or mixing them all together and letting fate decide what's activated first. I've done this with other games and it makes them much more interesting.

Sounds like you'd like bolt action mate, while not quite as random it does allow an element of unkown. Essentially you and your opponent put all your 'order dice' in a bag and shake it up (you put a dice in for each unit still alive in the army at the start of a turn) then you blind draw dice out, depenind on who's is drawn, they get to activate a unit.

 

So while you could have a string of good luck and activate multiple units, the opposite could happen also. Unit cards would mean you'd need to activate units only in the order given, which doesn't really open up tactical options more so than "oh bugger, well looks like this unit moves and does nothing because nothing is yet in range" sort of thing which would be lamentable :P

 

But keep the ideas, issues and what not coming boys, lets see if we can see if this works or not! 

[DuskRaider]

Sounds like you'd like bolt action mate, while not quite as random it does allow an element of unkown. Essentially you and your opponent put all your 'order dice' in a bag and shake it up (you put a dice in for each unit still alive in the army at the start of a turn) then you blind draw dice out, depenind on who's is drawn, they get to activate a unit.

 

So while you could have a string of good luck and activate multiple units, the opposite could happen also. Unit cards would mean you'd need to activate units only in the order given, which doesn't really open up tactical options more so than "oh bugger, well looks like this unit moves and does nothing because nothing is yet in range" sort of thing which would be lamentable

 

But keep the ideas, issues and what not coming boys, lets see if we can see if this works or not! 

nteresting.

 

 

We used to do it for Rackham's Confrontation (which I see they're bringing back via Kickstarter), it was a lot of fun. It's true, you'd have some units activate before they could do much but that was the risk. 

[Rogue]

Epic used to work a bit like this, back in the day. I can’t remember the exact rules, but you’d give every unit an order (fire, charge or advance (which was both, but less effective than committing fully)), and then you’d alternate activating units until you both ran out (removing the order counter as you go, as a reminder).

 

It encouraged two levels of tactics, as you were committing your troops to certain actions before knowing your opponents plans, and then you had a lot of choices to make about shooting units that had yet to activated, or charging in to tie people up - that sort of thing.

[War Eagle]

In our group we played FoW and 40k 7th. with bolt action activation. It was so much more challenging, fun and tactically interesting. Even Listbuilding became different as there was no way to reliably pull off something like Alphastrike. Infact, our listsbecame much more alrounders. And in FoW, they resembled almost always regular , original military formations unless the mission demanded otherwise.

But also in 40k, most lists ( we played always 2000 pts) looked more like organized battlegroupd, having most elements included. If the group wouldn't had to split up due to job relocations of some members, we would still play this way.

In my current club, this is not applicable as many players are playing tournaments ang club games are training games....so have to be played according to the 8.Edition rules.

[Elzender]

Even if I have not played since 6th ed, it could be an interesting idea. Maybe the combat phase could be joint, after all units have declared and completed their charges? That way, you can make all units involved fight, without the risk of making some units attack more than once.

[War Eagle]

Hola Elzender, using the BA activation system, units cannot be activated twice in one gameturn.

 

Each unit and each character is represented by one dice. Each player's dice has to have different colors. All dice are placed in a non transparent bucket. As in 40k, we let a dice roll decide who goes first. Initiative can be stolen as usual. The player who goes first draws a dice . Is it one of his own, he can choose one of his units or one Character he wants to activate. He places the drawn dice next to the activated unit so players are reminded, which units wdrd alreade activated. Then he does all actions he can do with this unit/character..moving, shooting, PSI, attacking. All other units on the table remain passive but are in overwatch mode.

If attacked in close combat, the unit attacked will defend itself as usual. If an attacked unit has the counterattack ability, or the enemy player has a stratagem allowing an instant counterattack, and the player owning this unit decides to carry out the counterattack, the unit or character is automatically activated for this purpose. One dice of the player attacked is taken from the bucket an placed next to the unit who was activated for counterattck.

 

Once an activated unit or Character has carried out ALL its actions , it will be turned in passive but overwatch mode. ( this an be changed for units having lost more then 50% i.E. which would then become to weak for a 2. overwatch fire)

 

Then player #2 draws a dice..is it one of his own, he can select one of his units as described above. He cannot however use the unit which did the counterattack because it was activated already. But this unit can defend itself if attacked as normal..no 2. counterattack though.

 

If the drawing player draws an enemy dice, he has to hand it over to the enemy who can then activate his next unit..and so forth.

 

Of coursr it can and will happen, that sometimes a player gets 3, 4 5 or more dicd in row, drawn by himself or by the enemy. But as the dice in the bucket become less and less, chances increase for the second player to get also several dice in a row.

This reflects the ebb and tide of battleflow...

 

All used activation dice are always placed next to the unit it was used for. If a unit gots destroyed, its activation dice is taken from the pool of dice.

 

Once all dice have been drawn from the bucket, one turn of the game is over. All dice remaining with units on the board are collected and placed in the bucket again for the 2.turn. Again, if the players like, they can use a dice again to decide who goes first in the 2.turn.

 

One big advantage of such a system is, aside from the fact that each player is really active all the time, rather then one has to waits a full enemy turn, you can play with 3 or more players without a problem as the activation sequence of single units/characters is determined by a dice draw , not by a fixed IgoUgo sequence.

[Leonaides]

It really suffers when one side has more units than the other. Imagine playing a guard army who has twice the number of units as you. They will get to use all their heavy hitters before you get much chance to string together a couple of units to attack.

[Beta galactosidase]

As to your talking point good sir, I can certainly see where you are coming from, but are you saying something like this:

Army 1 moves. Unit a army 1 shoots, Unit a army 2, unit b army 1 shoots, unit b army 2 shoots....army 2 moves etc?

Yes that's what I meant, as an example. It seems like an assumption that all the phases should be treated just like the others.

[War Eagle]

It really suffers when one side has more units than the other. Imagine playing a guard army who has twice the number of units as you. They will get to use all their heavy hitters before you get much chance to string together a couple of units to attack.

And how is it today with IGoUgo ? How many units of a guard Army can a player with an Elite Army seriously destroy in one turn , given he goes first..?

While using alternate activation, We haven't experienced anything worse then in the usual systems FoW or 40K.

In FoW i.E. you have a russian Tankovy Battalon with twice as many T34 and T34/85 tanks plus Heavy Tank destroyers and tons of Infantry fighting a german SS Panzerkompanie with Mark IV , Panthers and a Tiger of two. Do the russians have an autowin ? Not neccessarily . Still, tactics, Experience and Morale of an Army playd the most important roles.

Alternating Activation just supports this while Igo Ugo suppresses such things to a certain degree.

Or have you ever heard from a battle where one side asks the other to wait with any action until this first side has done something with all of it's Units ?

[TheTrans]

If anyone has a chance to have a go, let us know how it works. Like I play a lot of games and I can't see a single negative to the alternating activations.. lets be honesty they way it is currently is horrid...so it surely can't be any worse! 

[Andy Tea]

I'm debating trying a small game using ethier alterecting activation or possibly random activation

 

I'll see if I can persuade an opponent tof try it

 

By random activation I mean similareally but a coloured token in a bag for each unit you have then randomly draw the tokens out so I may get to activate 2 units back to back but then the other guy might get 3 etc.

[Focslain]

I've done AA in Malifaux and Relic Knight, in a skirmish game it's not too bad.

 

But in larger games it starts to become ponderous. I had the issue in RK with my Diamond Corp group (basically IG) I can get almost a dozen units in a high point game (games tended to be around 25 for a short game and mini armies in 100 pts). If your ok with small games then sure. For you bolt action players a good test if the system can handle large games is to try and play a game using 4x the units of a normal sized game.

 

This might seem hyperbole, but trust me it will work out since most 40K games tend to be in the 2K range and AA starts to drag around effectively a 1K game.