The State of the Chapter

[Brother Captain Ed]

Greetings Frater,

 

With the Big FAQ and the Beta Rules sending the meta into convulsions,  I figure that this is as good a time as any to call everyone back to the Fortress of Hera to discuss the State of the Ultramarines.

 

Personally, though the Ultras are one of the better codex-adherent chapters, I have found the SM Codex to be astonishingly poor.  Laden with discarded concepts and poor implementation, the edition isn't even a year old and the SM Codex has aged extraordinarily badly.  Codex marines lack both killing power AND staying power, combining expensive models with low output.  Guilliman is the one bright spot, but 1.) he keeps getting more expensive, and 2.) even he cannot carry a whole list.

 

I am struggling to keep up, even in friendly games.  In tournaments, it's pretty much over before the dice roll.  

 

If the predicted effects of the beta rules are true, then more time without super-units right on top of us, combined with Cities of Death style boards should help some, though I doubt it will make much difference.  Frankly, the state to which we've fallen requires a new codex altogether.  This year's CA can't possibly do enough to make a real difference unless they spring something on  the scale of free transport battle companies on us again.

 

But, I'm not giving up.  I play 40k to play Space Marines and I don't want to quit just yet.  So what are you guys doing that is working?  What's solid and what's not?  Any hidden gems, or just underrated tactics/datasheets?  Do we still need to spam Razorbacks or is there another way ahead?

 

As we go forward, I had two thoughts for the post-FAQ environment that might be worth looking at:

1.) It may be time to re-look at Icarus weaponry.  Almost every xenos dex barely touches the ground, as well Blood Angels and Custodian bikes.  Even without flyers, hitting on 4+ isn't the end of the world (though the prevalence of hit modifiers does make it a risk).  It's super meta-dependent, but anti-air stock may have gone up.

 

2.) Terminators went from bad to worse, but Tartaros may get a second look.  They are shooty enough to do damage on the drop or, if there is just too much enemy board control, they can form a competent (if expensive) part of a gunline.  They are punchy enough that both Drop & Charge or Stand & Receive are viable options.  They also move 6, so if they don't deep strike, they aren't any worse off walking than that squad of Intercessors.  Not saying they are amazing...or even good...but they may be the only realistic terminator choice left to us. 

 

Anyway, let's hear your thoughts/experiences as we make the best of a bad situation, like true Sons of Guilliman.

[Decimus Felix]

I've recently started to run Primaris only with Guilliman, and I'm not doing too badly. Not using Guilliman, however, means I can't win a game.

 

For me, the lack of speed is what hits us hardeat though, and I find myself eyeing up Dawneagle jetbikes and wishing we had something similar.

[Tamiel]

I play in a sort-of casual environment. Even if I face a tournament type of player, they usually bring lists that aren't their top WAAC lists. Here are some of the things that have been going well for me:

• Maelstrom of War missions. These missions reward objective play more-so than straight up killing or netlisting. While Eternal War missions often turn into gunline games where both sides are camping and shooting at each other (boring), Maelstrom missions encourage players to move around and fight for control of the map right from turn one. Also, killing units doesn't automatically reward points (unless they have drawn a card for such a thing), so you are encouraged more to think about the objectives. In any case, net-listing players who can't think about strategy on their feet are at a disadvantage in Maelstrom games, while players who can make smart decisions about objectives seem to fare better. I think this is more fair and fun for both players.
   
• Lots of line of sight blocking terrain. This has been said a million times already, so I'm not going to restate much. But it is imperative that there are lots of walls and blocks of concrete/rocks to stop long range gunline armies from dominating. The most interesting games I've played were on densely packed cities with tons of walls and true line of sight blocking terrain.
   
• Anyone who knows me already knows what I'm going to mention: Rhinos and naked tac marines. I don't know if it is psychological, but no enemy ever seems to prioritize killing a rhino with 10 tac marines in it (no upgrades). Even some tournament players who made it to the semi-finals at local conventions look at TAC marines and just expect nothing out of them. People either just ignore these squads altogether, or if they are a bit more experienced, put some effort into killing them but don't commit a whole lot. When you get the rhino close enough, you can rapidfire + charge with the tac marines, and even use the rhino to go tie up some other squad. I'm not going to go out and suggest this style to everyone, but it might be interesting for some people to try out. You have to bring some anti-tank for the rest of your army though. And against melee armies, you want to shoot at them from afar until you have seriously weakened the enemy down.
   
• I also avoid playing against people who have net-listy, spammy, or just seriously fluff-breaking armies. If they are spamming troops, that's fine, but if their list is just nothing but flying hive tyrants, I usually dodge those types of games. The same goes for people taking soup armies for fluff-breaking reasons. I once played a white scars player who had 95% of his army with white scars, and he brought a batallion detachment of an Ultramarine Captain, Leuitenant, and 3 scout squads, and made that UM captain his Warlord (for the warlord trait we Ultras get). This seemed to make no sense from a lore perspective. Why is an Ultramarine Captain leading an army that is almost entirely White Scars? Why isn't the White Scars captain the leader? Why did the UM captain and Lieutenant bring nothing but three 5man scout squads, while the White Scars captain brought a whole platoon of bike veterans, armed to the teeth with storm shields and thunder hammers? I won that game, and the guy was really nice and friendly, but I regretted the overall experience just because the army was so incongruent with 40k. 

 

I think the best advice I can give, from my perspective, is to find people who you enjoy playing with and treasure them like gold. The small group of guys I play with have always given me a great time and, if it wasn't for them, I'd probably already have moved on from this hobby.

[Captain Idaho]

Maelstrom of War and decent terrain goes a long way to fostering good games I totally agree.

 

I've found my list does best because it has plenty of numbers but really lacks comparing to the likes of Kastellen Robots. Alpha strikes with shooting still wipe the floor with most armies.

 

Varied armies will help Ultramarines a bunch. I don't take Guilliman in my games against my group since I don't like a crutch and I know he's going to wipe the floor with most armies I'm up against.

 

It remains to be seen what additional changes we'll see. A 1st turn -1 to hit would be nice since GW aren't going to remove their terrain releases that just don't block line of sight.

 

I still miss 4th edition where the rules for terrain blocked line of sight depending on type rather than true line of sight, which has been a poor rule since it was implemented.

[Ishagu]

Why would you want a hit modifier in turn 1? Early game firepower is the only decent asset to Marines. We don't have speed and we don't have lasting power so can't win through attrition or board domination.

 

Besides, Eldar already achieve a -3 on many of their units and that utterly neuters Marines even when backed by Guilliman.

 

If people are finding their local meta dominated by gunlines that win on turn 1 they need to invest in terrain. GW make good buildings and they can create LOS blocking with minimal modification.

[Captain Idaho]

Multiple changes:

 

1) -1 to hit first turn for units.

 

2) Like abilities that ignore wounds, only a single to hit modifier can be applied in any turn.

 

***

 

Marines need fixing but I don't want to see armies wiped out first turn. In fact Marines should be a close ranged firepower army and assault force. Long ranged stuff is cool as support but I should have cheap transports to get all my Tactical Marines in close and actually make it there.

 

I think people can't detach themselves from what their army does well for the betterment of the game. Sure Marines are best at shooting and using Guilliman etc. Do we want that for the game?

 

How many stories of Marines have them trading fire from a distance? 40K isn't better for gunline play.

[Brother Captain Ed]

Ish and Idaho,

 

I don't disagree. While I'm glad that some effort is being made to tone down the alpha strike, neg stacking does seem to be at least as much of a problem. I also think the game as just gotten too lethal.

 

But I had hoped to find tactics and lists that are currently hanging in there. Clearly, no one is sitting on a hidden tournament wrecker, but at this point I just want to not get wrecked in casual games. I'm at my wits end.

[Prot]

I agree with Ed. I don’t think it’s going to change anytime soon.

 

At this point I hate to say I told you so but those knee jerk reactions GW made over assault cannons hurricanes etc when Ultramarines won a tournament back when there were only 2-3 codexes does seem even more absurd now. As Ed says, and I’ve witnessed, the escalation of raw damage in new codexes is getting too high. You’re either playing a super him damage Xenos or your leveraging an anomaly like 100 Poxwalkers or 3 Squads of Cacaphony Oblits. Some of this is taken care of now, but GW increasing the cost of Guilliman shows me they’re not understanding the core issue.

 

People aren’t just fielding Guilliman because he’s that good, it’s because there’s almost no hope for Codex Astartes in a top 10 without him. Instead of fixing those items that lag, we’re further punished for limited functionality in a tournament scenario.

 

Sorry if I sound disgruntled but I’m more disappointed how they pave handled this. I really am starting to feel it’s sales driven. I think these changes favour stuff that already works overall.

 

We do use lots of terrain, and Alpha is a bit of a problem but I think entirely removing it really helps you Astra, Tau, etc so much. And frankly some armies rely on Alpha.

 

I never liked drop pods in 8th but now there’s just no way. I feel like we are being forced into vehicles. We may have to go back to multi Stormravens, or even Rhinos. I mean to a much larger degree. The amounts of small arms firepower most Xenos can bring now is crazy. I’m close to looking at multi Landraiders but they still remain overcosted. Stuff like whirlwinds, and even thunder fires are stuff I have to revisit because without T1 Alpha the Xenos indirect stuff is going to get worse (plus Astra).

[Captain Idaho]

It's certainly a case of "1st Codex" Syndrome.

 

Consider when the Codex hit it was good but not over bearing to the Index books, it seems we need a rethink.

 

Terminators with 3 wounds and WS and BS 2+, new Stratagems, new psychic powers...

 

Not to mention GW needs to work on the model range. Lots of great kits with no options. More combi weapons for Cataphractii Terminators (Death Guard get them), new weapons for the Contemptor (that's right I bought Betrayal at Calth), new weapon and shield options for Marines (I want to turn my Tactical Marines into Breachers and Assault Marines into Detroyers!).

 

That is a personal preference but my point is Codex Space Marines needs new life.

 

(Actually all armies are looking flat right now. New units are great if you like Primaris but even then they have few options. Even their characters are stock and repeated in every army)

[Prot]

I agree Termies need serious help but what you propose is making them Allarus Terminators. I don’t disagree but I don’t believe GW would tread on Custodes territory.

 

I also think the Cataphractii deserve those Combi options.

 

Since I actively play all these armies I would go as far as to say those are the most functional Terminators in 40k; Allarus and DG Cataphractii. ( which are also T5, have disgustingly resilient, and access to the very respectable Flail].

 

I would also go so far as to state the Psychic Powers need some real help.

 

Primaris are something I realize I’m in the minority with and while I realize that I also think it’s time for the next step. This first phase has been a nice intro, but it’s time for the Primaris to do something significant. I feel like this was part of a phase in but it’s time to increase their vitality..

 

I think we as a player base should look at this as an opportunity to push GW to have a second look at the Codex Astartes. Let’s get some of those duds functional again.

 

I think a lot of our problems also sit in ‘Assault ‘ roles. While I think the firebase crown has decidedly been won by Xenos and Astra this leaves us with assault pressure units which feel super lacking right now. Assault marines, Terminators, chaplains, etc etc. They just have no teeth right now.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh I doubt GW would tread on Custodes territory which is a shame.

 

Alternative options of course. Say, they take their invulnerable saves in addition to their armour save. So they take armour saves then take their invulnerable saves after.

 

Or they reduce all damage by 1.

 

Only problem is it would fix all Terminators but make Death Guard and Custodes ungodly hard to kill.

[derLumpi]

I think stalkers might be really a unit that can shine. As Ultramarines we have Chronus to make it even more effective. I will use it in my games to come and see if it earns its points back. 

 

I would love to use more Drop Pods as they are one of the icons of the might of the Space Marines but I will restrict myself to one only. 

 

This first phase has been a nice intro, but it’s time for the Primaris to do something significant. I feel like this was part of a phase in but it’s time to increase their vitality..

 

I think that GW did that deliberately. The next overhaul of SM will see more Primaris and lesser units of the old marines. I don't want to polarize and derail this thread but I think that they will use the current situation (that they created on purpose) to get more Primaris units out.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd so love for the Stalker and Hunter to be worthwhile but I'm not seeing it.

 

As for your point on Primaris I believe you are correct. Don't update the line and use Primaris to replace things.

 

I doubt we'll see a new model for anything other than Primaris in the Space Marines line ever again, which is a shame as I liked Terminators, jump packs, our vehicles etc.

[derLumpi]

I doubt we'll see a new model for anything other than Primaris in the Space Marines line ever again, which is a shame as I liked Terminators, jump packs, our vehicles etc.

 

Not only this. I think we will see some units dropped or probably replaced by 'better' primaris units if there is a new codex for SM.

[justicarius6]

The Stalker has it's uses now but not really for the role envisaged in the fluff. What they are (especially with Chronus onboard) are really good jump troop, jet-bike hunters, so if you face a lot of those then I'd certainly think about including them. Remember if you take Chronus to pimp it out with Stormbolter and HK to make full use of his BS.

 

I think next in line for primaris will be a terminator equivalent (I don't see aggressors as such) and an assault focused Inceptor. As the line goes along, I see the "regular" marines being pushed more and more into a veteran role.

[Prot]

The Stalker has it's uses now but not really for the role envisaged in the fluff. What they are (especially with Chronus onboard) are really good jump troop, jet-bike hunters, so if you face a lot of those then I'd certainly think about including them. Remember if you take Chronus to pimp it out with Stormbolter and HK to make full use of his BS.

 

I think next in line for primaris will be a terminator equivalent (I don't see aggressors as such) and an assault focused Inceptor. As the line goes along, I see the "regular" marines being pushed more and more into a veteran role.

 

I'd agree, but I'm betting it's '3 wound Termies' in Gravis, with monocrhomatic weapon loadouts. In that case I'll just stick with my Inceptors.

 

This is why I think we generally agree GW needs to really tweak a lot of units that aren't getting fixed by simply nerfing the minor units that do work.

 

Machine Spirit needs to be changed to ignore leaving close combat and shooting normally. Psychics need some help. CC needs help. Standard stuff in the codex needs help. All I see in the tournament meta is Guilliman standing around a blob of Missile Devs now. We're seeing a lot less Razorbacks, Flyers, tanks.

 

A saving grace on the Drop Pod would be a first turn DS, with the unit inside able to disembark inside that 9.1" barrier. But as it stands, it's a very limited use unit.

[Captain Idaho]

I think a Predator with Heavy Bolters and Autocannon is better than the Stalker. It suffers no penalties to hit against ground targets and most models with Fly aren't Flyers anyway.

 

Once you get 2 failed saves through a vehicle or monster with that Autocannon you'll smile!

 

Also gets more shots.

[Prot]

If we are talking about pulling predators out for competitive play is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think we could definitely see some new Primaris units and hopefully a cheaper transport for them. I wouldn’t count on too much else though.

[Captain Idaho]

If we are talking about pulling predators out for competitive play is that a good thing or a bad thing?

I think they are compared to Stalkers that's fo' sho'.

[Brother Captain Ed]

I've hated every second with predators. They die to a stiff breeze, aren't exactly cheap, need to be stationary, and the dakka isn't anything to write home about.

 

Don't even get me going on Killshot.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like the existing Libarius psychic lore... recently had a game versus Tyranids. Tiggy would cast MoH on a squad of Intercessors then use the -1 to hit on them during the enemy shooting phase. It took the enemy Hive Guard five turns to finally shoot them off and objective while I was scoring progressively each turn. Tiggy also successfully cast Null Zone on a Flyrant that had brazenly ventured to close and my Hellblasters torched it to death in one turn. We have the best Librarian in the codex and there’s no reason not to use him. I would like to see access to another lore though with some tasty new powers like Prescience and Perfect Timing.

[Captain Idaho]

You're using Might of Heroes wrong though. It's a single model.

 

Regarding Killshot - yes it should be a simple +1 to wound for 1 CP on 1 Predator.

 

Though it's best not to talk about our vehicles in comparison to the vehicles in other Codex books. Why do they all get free bonuses for standing still?

 

I'd like to see the Stalker fire twice if it's stationary, the Vindicator hit automatically if within 12" (and get more shots - D3 is paltry!), the Predator get a +1 to wound monsters and vehicles with its turret, the Hunter perhaps causes D3 mortal wounds on flyers in addition to damage.

 

Otherwise our vehicles are just naff. And don't say they should all fire twice if stationary. That's uninspired and boring.

[UnkyHamHam]

A lot of folks were saying that Killshot and Linebreaker weren't really worth it unless you could bring an extra tank. The rule of 3 seems to have killed the reliability of those strategems. Not that Vindicators are good anyways.

[Ishagu]

Yeah, unfortunately losing first turn would almost certainly mean losing one if the Predators. It's hard to hide 3 of them completely even on tables with decent terrain.

 

Chaos have a great strategem for Daemon Engines - 1 CP to re roll all hits and wounds. Neurons have the same thing for Destroyers. We need something similar and equally cheap for some of our units.