Post FAQ- is the Nephalim worth a try?

[Hantheman]

Considering the Talon is not more expensive, I’ve got an unboxed model waiting to be made. Is the nephaliam worth a shot? The avenger bolter seems alright, but I’m worried about missing out on my lovely rift cannon

[Project XXVIII]

The general consensus with the Nephilim is that it's almost to the point of being what it's hyped to be,..

 

It's lauded as an "Air Superiority Fighter",.. but gets not bonuses to hit units with "Fly"

 

It doesn't have "Hover", and while it's not a deal-breaker,.. playing on a 6'x4' table with "Supersonic" rule hamstrings your flexibility with the unit.  The Dark Talon is more unpredictable with applications,.. you can have it hang back first turn and advance with ground forces, or Deep Strikers on turn 2.  The Nephilim has to be properly positioned to do the same, with it's minimum move and pivot ability, you somewhat telegraph to your opponent where your push is going to be.

 

If you're playing one of those crazy huge Armageddon style games with a table of good size,.. It'd be more of an asset,.. but again,.. it needs that bonus to hit flying troops added,.. FaQ anyone?

[Wrath of Bruinen]

I think this is an interesting discussion to have, and it's been something I've been mulling over a lot post-FAQ. I usually run 3 Dark Talons at 2000 points and just love fliers in general, so my thinking has been directed towards flier-heavy (but not spammy) armies.

 

What it comes down to is that the Talon and the Neph perform very different roles in the army, especially if you are taking a few. So it's not just a matter of whacking Nephs in where previously there were Dark Talons. Dark Talons really need to be up close to excel - their guns are quite short ranged, and they have to fly over something to drop their bombs. By contrast, Nephs can shoot all their guns from 36" away. This means that you can afford to keep your distance which, although it doesn't completely remove the worries about minimum movements Project XXVIII raised above, means you can usually just circle the board.

 

It also raises the possibility of trying to just kite the enemy, if you build a list around it. Bunch up Sammael, a Talonmaster, a Darkshroud and 2 or 3 Nephs. If you keep the HQs and shroud closer to the centre of the board than the Nephs, you should be able to keep them all in buff range, even with the 20" minimum movement (although it will take practice). Then, use the rest of your army (I recommend scouts and scout bikers, but other units will be good too) to deny deep strikers (made easier by the beta rule) and to tie up and harass the enemy, to keep them at arms length while you bombard them with mega bolter fire.

 

If you really want to be safe, magnetise your flyer (there are plenty of great tutorials out there) - that way you can try both and see how you go

[ValourousHeart]

Most of the belief that the Dark Talon is superior to the Nephilim comes from a mindset firmly entrenched in the previous editions of the game.  Yes, the Nephilim is billed as an air superiority fighter, but we play this game based on the rules, not based on the fluff.  If we only played using the fluff, you would only be able to bring 1 RWBK squad for every 3-4 RW Bike squads... but there are plenty of lists that take zero RW bikes and likely more RWBK than exist in the fluff.

 

You could also consider Adeptacon... Fluff wise a Hive Tyrant leads an army of Nids... But in the game, you'll see a bunch of Hive Tyrants with no army following them.  As such the Nephilim is defacto a ground attack fighter, and pretty good at that job.

 

Under the current system both can fire 360 degrees, so the supersonic rule actually has more of a negative effect on the Dark Talon, given that the weapons have a shorter range.

 

You can move them up to 40 or 50 inches, or advance them 60 or 70 inches, but both have a minimum move distance of 20 inches which can easily get them around the board without risking them flying off the edge.  Even on a 4x4 board that is 2 movement phases straight at your opponent's board edge before you have to turn.  And remember the 360 arc of fire and the longer range means that the Nephilim is not required to move as far to get units into the sweet spot range.

 

The Dark Talon can hover giving it more options as far as positioning on the board, but you should consider this feature a drawback.  If you get the Dark Talon in rapid fire range, then you'll also be in charge range, and if you are in charge range you will prefer not to be in hover mode.

 

During the shooting phase, the Dark Talon is the clear winner against targets within 12 inches that are 1w models based on the sheer number of shots and the relatively low toughness of 1w models.  Outside of 12 up to 18 inches, it is somewhat of a draw.  The Nephilim wins unless you get the mortal wounds rule to take effect and you roll high.  Over 18 inches the Nephilim is the clear winner.

 

I only ran the numbers vs tactical marine targets, so the matchup already favored the Dark Talon, because the extra damage on the lascannon and missiles would be wasted.  My guess is that matchups vs. higher toughness models with multiple wounds would end up favoring the Nephilim.  I just don't care enough to crunch the numbers.  Someone else is welcome to do it though.

[SnakeChisler]

The big draw for the Talon is the mortal wound bomb and the mortal wound cannon, both flyers can benifit from speed of the Raven.

 

Personally think Las cannons are a poor choice for armour pen not because they can't do the job it's more that you need lots to get them working and there expensive while the mega bolter looks a solid performer especially if you can keep it in aura range for a couple of turns.

 

A lot of games I have these days need volume of fire re-rolls and ignores cover also the make up of your forces is a driving factor having range as well as maneuverability is valuable, the big kicker is obviously the price hike on the Talon, I didn't think it was that deserved it was only an issue when you maxed them out and at 200 sadly mine will stay in its cabinet and I'm tempted to build a couple of Nephalims.