confusion about the basics of our lore

[Trunkello]

Hello guys.
For this topic i want everyone who answers me to ignore all in-game indoctrination and role playing otherwise this will be a freaking lynching. So pls dont judge me. Im just a fresh primaris nooby compared to you company veterans and seargants
 
So. I dont understand why dark angels sweat their pants about their "big secret". The secret is that there was a civil war inside the chapter during the horus heresy influenced by chaos right? So... and? Who cares? They think that the imperium will purge them or what? I dont know why the imperium would do that as even the mechanicum had a civil war and it broke the organization into two, yet we dont see the imperium purging mars. Even the traitor legions had loyalist elements in them who were accepted by the imperium. Also during the badab war, whole chapters fought against the imperium and they only had to go on a crusade to redeem themselves. So i dont understand why dark angels make so much of an elephant out of this problem. Is it because of their pride? Or shame? For 10 thousand years every dark angel had an implanted shame organ? Man dark angels should grow some balls. If i were a dark angel, my pride would dictate to stand tall as the member of the first legion, the best legion and show every imperial citizen that i served the imperium so well that they cannot throw any rocks on me. No pun intented with the rock.
 
So  lorewise this just doesnt make sense to me. Explaining this secret  with shame or pride.
Oooor what would make the most sense to me iiiis : The lion was in fact really turning on the emperor. Chaos releated or not, if one of the primarchs turns out to be traitor then the imperium would consider his legion and gene sons to be heretics too or most likely heretics. What if only the lion was traitor but all of his gene sons were not? So even the fallen and the dark angels beside lion were loyalist but the latter confusedly followed their primarch and now are fighting to keep this secret because if the imperium found out then they would be most likely called traitors themselves. Makes much more sense then judging half of the legion and their primarch just because the other half ( withouth their primarch) were traitors. And most likely not even all of the fallen were traitors just random brothers who were in the wrong place in the wrong time.
That secret would be worth keeping. So basically fallen are loylist actively disobeying their traitor primarch while the current dark angels trying to keep it a secret.
 
I know it has been oficially stated that the lion is in fact super duper loyal so my whole theory is wrong, but thats why i am confused, because then this whole secret keeping just doesnt make sense for me. Some chapters even grow mutated teeth, claws, bones and what not and yet nobody fears about imperial judgement from the blood angels side, or space wolfs side. Yet here we are. Loyal servants of the emperor with the purest of the geneseeds fearing the imperium. Even if the imperium wanted to take us out they would be propably broken in the process so doesnt worth the effort.
What do you think?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

In two words: pride and fear.

DA are the first Legion, the Legion that was regarded in awe by every other Legion.

They were alredy aloof and secretive and the death of the Lion made things worse.

 What would every other Legion think if they knew the Lion was betrayed by his own. What would happen to the Imperium  if the DA were disbanded because theyhad traitors among their midst?

So the Grand Masters did what they thought it would be best. Hide the secret and try to erase the stain.

 

It may not look like a big deal for us 21st century people, but in those Dark Ages, superstition, fear, honor and other traits are regarded thousandfold.

[Greenz]

I can definitely appreciate some of the confusion, especially for someone new to the DA and their background.

 

If you want the real world explanation, as far as I see it, we need to go back to the Rogue Trader/ 2nd edition era. Back then the Horus Heresy was just a page in a book, briefly explaining the events. It was not the fleshed out entity we have now, spread over 30+ books detailing everything. There was very little detail in regards to the traitor legions having loyalists still, and other loyalist legions having traitors. So the DA we’re kind of their own thing in that regard

 

Now you also need to consider that the DA were a knightly order even before the Lion crash landed, and the Emperor showed up. They were very honour driven. So for fully half the legion to go traitor was a HUGE stain on their honour. Plus throw in all the confusion post-heresy, no one trusting anyone, there almost being a second civil war, it’s easy to understand how a secretive, honour driven order would go down the path they have.

 

But after 20+ years, the Hunt, the Inner Circle, all that is what defines and gives the DA the character that we know and love. Now, that being said, the DA is not a chapter for everyone. You either love the fluff, or hate it. But most DA players are die hard Unforgiven, and love the chapter for what it is

 

That’s my 2 cents anways. I’m at work so that was kept in a nutshell, but that’s the basics in my eye at least

[Brother Tyler]

This old post of mine (and the larger discussion) is relevant (and will save me from having to try and type a full response when I have a broken finger ).

[Chaplain Raeven]

Keep in mind that the Imperium became really paranoid after the Heresy. They tried to root out every possible sign of Heresy during the Scouring. The Dark Angels played a significant part during this time, fighting plenty of battles to bring the rebelling worlds back into compliance. Imagine you return after all that to your homeworld, find that the whole planet has turned against the Imperium and starts shooting you out of orbit. The DA blew up their own planet to wipe them out and lost their Primarch in the process. No way that they were going to admit all that to Terra, especially not when secrecy is in their nature. The rest is just 10.000 years of a lie spiraling out of control. I would guess that if the truth came out now, the consequences wouldn't be as bad as at the scouring, since they have been trying to redeem themselves for 10.000 years.

 

If you would read 'Fallen Angels', you would see that Luther and his Inner Circle were turning heretic. Chances that the forces on Caliban were loyal and the Lion's forces weren't is unlikely.

[Trunkello]

At work too so just a short post now. Dont get me wrong i really love the fluff. The hunt, the secrecy. Sometimes i just go berserk on thr table top because one character is a fallen so we must eliminate him at all costs. Its really good. I just felt that the reason behind this and the secrecy was not so serious. So short back after the horus heresy everything was black and white : do you have traitor ties? Then die! So ofc they had to keep it a secret. And now after 10 thousand years it is just the way it is. Nobody in the unforgiven questions it. If i asked this question as a marine i would propably have some quality time with asmodai. Too bad luther is just simple as it is : chaos influenced traitor. A confused distrusted civil war would be far more interesting. Whats up with him now? If i remember correctly after he struck down the lion, the chaos powers left him because they couldnt corrupt him anymore. So is he still a heretic or not?

 

This old post of mine (and the larger discussion) is relevant (and will save me from having to try and type a full response when I have a broken finger ).

Thx. Very interesting read with lots of good thoughts. I will definetly read into it. I came to the conclusion about the black and white situation of the horus heresy aftermath too.

 

That’s my 2 cents anways. I’m at work so that was kept in a nutshell, but that’s the basics in my eye at least

Thank you very much. I really love the feeling of the chapter and the lore too. Just the reason was a little confusing about this 10 thousand year old secrecy.

[UtariOnzo]

The Dark Angels lore also has echoes of Sir Lancelot’s fall from grace and his attempts to find forgiveness and salvation after the breaking of the round table. Original lore has a lot of mirrors to real world literature like this, and has been mentioned before is something saddled on to later editions and iterations of the DA lore thanks to Rofue trader days.

 

Fundamentally you have to come to your own conclusions why they made it a secret and kept it so based on your interpretation of the available sources.

[Berzul]

Also, consider that not everyone in the Chapter knows whats what. The vast mayority has no clue, and the Inner Circle is the one with the answers, as well as the paranoia.

 

Most of the rank and file just defend humanity, even if sometimes their mission priorities are... questionable, at best.

[Chaplain Raeven]

Too bad luther is just simple as it is : chaos influenced traitor. A confused distrusted civil war would be far more interesting. Whats up with him now? If i remember correctly after he struck down the lion, the chaos powers left him because they couldnt corrupt him anymore. So is he still a heretic or not?

 

From what I read in the Codex, he just saw the error of his ways when he struck down the Lion. He kept raving about how the Lion would forgive him, so I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up with an army of loyal Fallen.

[march10k]

 

Now you also need to consider that the DA were a knightly order even before the Lion crash landed, and the Emperor showed up.

I thought the First Legion was out among the stars, fighting the emperor's wars, while the Lion was marooned on Caliban,  and they adopt the knightly flavor of Caliban AFTER reunification with their primarch.

[Trunkello]

 

 

Too bad luther is just simple as it is : chaos influenced traitor. A confused distrusted civil war would be far more interesting. Whats up with him now? If i remember correctly after he struck down the lion, the chaos powers left him because they couldnt corrupt him anymore. So is he still a heretic or not?

From what I read in the Codex, he just saw the error of his ways when he struck down the Lion. He kept raving about how the Lion would forgive him, so I wouldn't be surprised if he showed up with an army of loyal Fallen.

I hope luther is more layered character than just good or bad and they will advance the most interesting plot. Have us gessing what is luthers motives with his legion strenght fallen army.

Hmm would be nice to have an army that fights like cypher. Not for the imperium but for humanity. So they would have the imperium and chaos keyword. Or just let the fallen have their own army with some unique units. With an awesome luther model ofc.

[Greenz]

 

 

 

Now you also need to consider that the DA were a knightly order even before the Lion crash landed, and the Emperor showed up.

I thought the First Legion was out among the stars, fighting the emperor's wars, while the Lion was marooned on Caliban, and they adopt the knightly flavor of Caliban AFTER reunification with their primarch.

Yes, my bad, you’re right about the 1st Legion. What I meant was the Calabanites were a knightly order, not the marines. That’s what I get for not proof reading before hitting reply :D

[Kilofix]

This is my perspective. Feel free to correct me though:

 

1. Source is important. There were certainly factions from many loyalists Chapters that decided to side with Horus, etc. But with the DA, it was their home world that stood apart from Terra, not just some minor faction. And many of those were either of the original Calibanite Order or to a smaller degree original Terrans. To some, that could mean the DA’s “core” had turned.

 

While there were also loyalist factions of renegade Chapters, all such Chapters that were considered renegade at their “core” had their homeworld’s exterminated and the Chapter excommunicated.

 

2. Timing is important. When the Caliban / Luther matter was uncovered, the Heresy was already over. It was the time of Scouring during which any traces of Heresy were being prosecuted to the fullest extent. This was not a time for tolerance.

 

3. The fact that the Lion was lost is important. If the Lion had not been “lost” (wounded, stasis, etc.) during the battle, it would have been likely that he would have squared things. As it were, I think it would have been difficult for some surviving Master to explain “half the Legion rejecting Terra, losing the home world, losing the Primarch, but yeah - everything is ok, we are the loyal ones” to the likes of say Dorn.

 

4. That it happened a really long time ago is important. As others have said, hardly anyone actually remembers the nuances of the Heresy. To most it was black and white - the good side and the bad side so to speak. It would be hard to understand / explain and harder to accept the DA’s particular circumstance.

 

5. I think redemption is the priority not secrecy. I think secrecy is kept as a matter of operational necessarily just to avoid interference, but I don’t think that is the ultimate goal. What I mean is, I don’t think the DA hunt the Fallen to keep their secret quiet. I think they hunt the Fallen because they really do feel like they owe their brethren redemption. An opportunity that they do not provide to just any other Chaos.

 

Anyway, feel free to correct, interject, etc. I’ve said too much already. Time to burn this account. I hear Drop Pod impacts outside.

[march10k]

5. I think redemption is the priority not secrecy. I think secrecy is kept as a matter of operational necessarily just to avoid interference, but I don’t think that is the ultimate goal. What I mean is, I don’t think the DA hunt the Fallen to keep their secret quiet. I think they hunt the Fallen because they really do feel like they owe their brethren redemption. An opportunity that they do not provide to just any other Chaos.

 

 

 

I agree that redeeming their lost brothers is priority one.  But...secrecy is driven by much more than 'avoiding interference.' It's more like 'avoiding excommunication and eradication.'  That makes secrecy a very close priority two.

[SickSix]

As has been stated by others in this thread: GW didn't really think through a lot of the earlier fluff. The game was designed over 'beer and pretzels' in someone's basement.

 

As things got more serious they started having to make sense of things that may have been a one/two sentence blurb in earlier texts that they didn't really think would mean anything 30 years later.

 

It is silly now. But you do have the Angels of Absolution that did say 'Hey, we have atoned, we aren't carrying 10,000 years of someone elses guilt around anymore.' But they still respect the need for secrecy and will help hunt the fallen.

 

I really like your theory about the Lion becuase that could explain why he has been asleep for 8k years. The Chapter is actually keeping him prisoner. 5-10 years ago this would have been a really cool theory to work off of but... It has been locked in by the BL that the Lion us 'super loyal'. And I am okay with that. The dialogue between Lion and Curze is awesome and that story endeared the Lion to me.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Admittedly the fluff in HH has been really wonky and confusing, from the Lion being super duper loyal and going to Ultramar to keep Guilliman in line, to the whole messed up Caliban plot line regarding Zahariel, Luther and Cypher.

 

One more point that I don't think most of you understand, the knowledge we have as a player base is that of an omniprescent spectator. So yes, we all know the Lion is super duper loyal. We also know that Luther was still loyal to a point, even Zahariel was. But what do the current Dark Angels know? In the books, I think the last encounter the Lion's Dark Angels had with Luther's was that fiasco at "Angels of Caliban" which was Gav Thorpe basically plagiriasing the Red Wedding from Game of Thrones for no other reason other than his traditional "make DA confusing".

 

.....Sorry, going to pause from Thorpe nerd rage here.... and by the way, although identify with the Warriors of Fenris, I do appreciate the 1st and other chapters.

 

where was I.... ah yes, basically the tragedy is that the loyalist Dark Angels DO NOT KNOW what WE, the Player base, KNOWS. That is the primary geist of their fear: they still don't know how far their secret heresy went. We know both sides of the affair from the view of an omnipresent reader. So we know exactly what Zahariel and Luther was thinking when they did what they did. But do Luther and Zahariel know eachother's minds? If those 2 don't, how do we expect the other Dark Angels to know what happened? 

 

We can only guess what the Inner Circle knows, and so far what they portray as knowing is consistent with what the player base knows. So to answer the OP why they still must keep it a secret? Because unlike the other factions who resolved their traitorous actions during and immediately after, I think the Inner Circle only figured out most of these story only a few thousand years after the Heresy. And so they have not "RESOLVED" their traitorous issues at heart. It doesn't help that many of the most prominent Fallen end up as notable CSM or otherwise random trouble makers like Astelan or Cypher.

 

Yes, the Mechanicum had their civil war. Loyalist chapters at the time probably had warrior lodges that tried to side with Horus. White Scars are one of the most infamous chapter, but also famous because they dealt with it decisively once and for all, first by segregating them into separate guerilla squads, and then having them VOLUNTARILY going out in a blaze of final. We all know what Guilliman also did in conjunction with Sanguinus and Lion. But they all resolved it during and after the heresy. 

 

So to summarize, I think the shame is still applicable, and the fear of being expunged despite being the 1st Legion is very real back even before Guilliman came back. Now that Guilliman is back, I don't think he'll be inclined to do so even if all the coverups and Fallen stories are made available to him. Yes I know he was rescued by Cypher and the Fallen, and by now the Fallen would have been interrogated so at least THEIR rather dubious side of the story is made available to Guilliman. And I think Guilliman was testing Azrael when he appeared at the Rock, and thankfully, the Inner Circle passed the test by NOT being like their Fallen and firing on Guilliman despite the likelihood of censure.

 

Currently, I believe Guilliman knows much of the Dark Angels secret shame, but at the same time, knows perfectly well that the current DA are not closet traitors at all. Moreover he has his own secret shame of Imperium Secundus so he probably understands the DA doing what they do. But for now, the galaxy is burning, and the full might of the DA is needed. Resolve that first, then resolve the secret shame privately is his "practical" I think. 

 

Of course there is still the matter of Luther escaping and the growing gathering of the Fallen which apparently, are numerous enough to be chapter size at least. God dang it GW! So hopefully before there is ANOTHER coverup and backstabbing, Guilliman takes some time to deal with the secret shame otherwise the DA might even kill their own Primaris reinforcements, battle brothers or not, to prevent the hint of the shame. Unlikely, but GW has been known to make stupid fluff decisions before. Like space marines executioners riding giant wolves.......

 

Arghhh, back to OP. Yes the shame is real, and the threat of expunging even the 1st legion is real to the Inner Circle.

[Trunkello]

 

Of course there is still the matter of Luther escaping and the growing gathering of the Fallen which apparently, are numerous enough to be chapter size at least. God dang it GW!

 

The codex speaks about a legion sized contingent. A corrupted legion capable of bringing the entire galaxy to its heels. What does the codex mean by that?. So either GW is incompetent again about sizes (like colonels leading a planet wide invasion army) or there is something big coming. And as we are an omnipotent spectre in the lore, what about Luther? If the Lion is super duper loyal, then Luther is super duper corrupted chaos space marine? If he is leading that legion what will be his goal? I hope GW is going somewhere with the dark angels story... The dark imperium story was kinda lame for me. But a fallen legion united under 1 goal is a bigger threat than Failbaddon the armless.

[solarisqc]

We don't know what happen to Luther. What we know is that he is not in his cell anymore and that it happen when the deamon prince Marbas attack the Rock. We also know that the changeling try to acces Luther jail and he was block by the Watchers in the dark.

 

I see 2 posibility for Luther, he was release by Marbas and he is corrupt or he was protect by the watchers and is loyal to the lion.

 

What i learn form 20+ year following DA/Fallen fluff is everytime your looking at one side, it's just a distraction and the action happen on the other side. At this point, i will not be surprise if/when the Lion come back, he have Luther at his side and they are BFF again, both having learn of the mistake they made thinking they can be stronger alone. Luther and the Lion may be lock together in a seal chamber deep in the Rock, with the watchers looking at them until they find a way to fix what they broke (Caliban).

[Kasper_Hawser]

We don't know what happen to Luther. What we know is that he is not in his cell anymore and that it happen when the deamon prince Marbas attack the Rock. We also know that the changeling try to acces Luther jail and he was block by the Watchers in the dark.

 

I see 2 posibility for Luther, he was release by Marbas and he is corrupt or he was protect by the watchers and is loyal to the lion.

 

What i learn form 20+ year following DA/Fallen fluff is everytime your looking at one side, it's just a distraction and the action happen on the other side. At this point, i will not be surprise if/when the Lion come back, he have Luther at his side and they are BFF again, both having learn of the mistake they made thinking they can be stronger alone. Luther and the Lion may be lock together in a seal chamber deep in the Rock, with the watchers looking at them until they find a way to fix what they broke (Caliban).

 

I would be cool with the whole coming back as BFF again. On the whole, the lore still hasn't changed the part where Luther went insane with regret of betraying the Lion, which means he still wants redemption.

 

LOL, it would be a delicious irony that Luther and Lion are back together and the DA are none the wiser, still hidden on the Rock no less. Probably playing scrabble and warhammer 80K to pass the time. Or writing edgy poetry. Oh wait, that is a Corax trope/meme. :P

[Helias_Tancred]

/sigh

 

Please no more, "the forces on Caliban under Luther were loyal, and it was the rest of the legion under Jonson that were the traitors..." garbage. If you read Ruinstorm for example, its finally putting this sort of tin foil hat conspiracy fun to rest. Rightfully so.

[Trunkello]

/sigh

 

Please no more, "the forces on Caliban under Luther were loyal, and it was the rest of the legion under Jonson that were the traitors..." garbage. If you read Ruinstorm for example, its finally putting this sort of tin foil hat conspiracy fun to rest. Rightfully so.

Of course we want to make conspiracy theories. Otherwise our story would be on the levels of Disney princess storywriting.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

/sigh

 

Please no more, "the forces on Caliban under Luther were loyal, and it was the rest of the legion under Jonson that were the traitors..." garbage. If you read Ruinstorm for example, its finally putting this sort of tin foil hat conspiracy fun to rest. Rightfully so.

Of course we want to make conspiracy theories. Otherwise our story would be on the levels of Disney princess storywriting.

 

 

Oh God, do not mention Disney Princesses in this forums. 

 

anyway, Tancred is correct, the DA traitor trope is old and stupid, long past its age, and people who still ask or claim that really have no understanding whatsoever of Dark Angel lore, or even Space Marines in general.

 

Then again, I'm still getting comments from my meta saying that Russ comes back as a Khorne daemon prince even after the person who created that fake datasheet outright came out and said it was a fake........

 

.... keep calm make a list. Not everyone delves into the lore when going into 40K. I don't know about most of you, but I got into 40K BECAUSE of the lore, not because of the game.