Ultrasonic cleaner doubts

[Elzender]

Hello fraters!

 

Yesterday I got myself a ultrasonic cleaner, and I have a couple doubts I have regarding how to use it and its applications,so I would appreciate if somebody could help me with them:

 

- I see some fraters recommend using IPA (isopropyl alcohol / 2-propanol). However, I am a bit worried about putting a higly flammable liquid in the cleaner, considering it heats the liquid inside it. I've seen some people say they put it in a container/closed plastic bag together with the minis to strip and submerge it in water. How do you guys use it?

 

- I was also wondering if it is useful to clean the mould release agent off resin. Has anyone tried it?  I have some bits that seem to resist the soapy soak and scrubbing, and having an alternative to reduce elbow grease would be nice.

[Ganders]

I'm a great believer in ultrasonic cleaners. I used to use fairy power spray before they changed the recipe and i now use IPA.

 

One example; I was able to strip about 20 old school harlequins caked in 20 yo paint down to perfect bare metal in less than an hour. Two or three 4 minute, max power setting then a rinse under the tap while gently scrubbing with an old toothbrush. Just placed as many as i could fit at a time straight onto the tray.

I've stripped metal, plastic and resin down.

 

There is a bit of a heated up smell while it vibrates away (although the vibrations are whisper quiet).

 

I've never used it to prep resin but i cant see any harm in trying it out.

 

I used to have a bunch of pictures but lost them during the photobucket fiasco. If i can find the originals i'll post them.

[Ganders]

Turns out I had them on my work laptop the whole time;

 

 

 

[Major_Gilbear]

I put water in the cleaner, and the models in a bag with isopropyl. This means that the sonic vibrations can get to the models through the liquid (this is important, as the cleaner won't work any areas that are not in full liquid contact), and I don't have to clean isopropyl and paint residue from my cleaner (because all the muck stays in the bag). My cleaner has a temperature setting, and I generally find that a half hour clean at a 30-40C temperature has the best results. After that, if the models need more, I simply transfer them to a plastic tub and let them soak for longer in the isopropyl over the next couple of days. This is fine for plastic and metal models, although try not to put lead models in with anything else - the sonic vibrations cause them to vibrate against each other, and this will flatten/damage any fine details because the lead is quite soft.

 

If you're cleaning resin, don't use isopropyl. It's fine if you give the models a quick scrub with it and then wash it off after a couple of minutes, but longer soaks do affect the resin (especially for smaller pieces). I left a FW missile launcher in isopropyl for a few hours and it tuned into bendy rubber and details broke off it easily. Afterwards, it took almost a year for the resin to re-harden fully, and even then it was brown and the shape was slightly distorted.

 

For cleaning resin, I would use a suitable non-foaming dish detergent. Using a small amount of powdered dishwasher detergent should work well, as most of those are very good degreasers and they don't foam much. Also, even a small tub of powdered dishwasher detergent will last you a very long time when cleaning models, so it works out quite cheap. Additionally, I would generally set the cleaner to a lower temperature for the resin clean (15-25C) as you don't want the resin to get too warm when you're cleaning it. Too cold, and the resin is more brittle, too warm, and the resin goes soft.

 

If your cleaner doesn't have a temperature setting, you can use hot/cold water from your tap and a thermometer to get it approximately right. My cleaner generally heats up from the sonic vibrations about 10C from the starting water temperature after about an hour's work in a room that's about 20C, so that should give you a rough guide about what to expect.

 

Finally, even with a sonic cleaner, you will usually still have to get into the models with a toothbrush afterwards. It's *much* easier and quicker than normal though (because the solvent and the sonic vibrations have done a lot of the work for you), but do be aware that often it still has to be done. Similarly, any resins that have been cleaned in dishwater detergent would do well to be rinsed off in cold water with a toothbrush to avoid having any residue left on your models.

[Elzender]

Thank you very much for the responses!

 

I was intending to clean the resin bits using soap and water, but guess I'll have to get some powdered detergent. Major, about stripping painted resin, I understand using IPA in the sonic cleaner is kinda risky, and I should just do a quick rinse in IPA and good ol' scrubbing?

 

Btw, does anybody know by chance if the 2nd edition land speeders are lead or white metal/pewter? I have one which still has paint residues even after a long soak in acetone, and I was considering giving it a shot with IPA+sonic cleaner.

[Major_Gilbear]

I was intending to clean the resin bits using soap and water, but guess I'll have to get some powdered detergent.

 

You can use a bowl of hand-warm water, liquid dish soap, and a toothbrush if you prefer to do it by hand (I usually do).

 

It's just that these liquid soaps typically foam a lot when agitated by the sonic cleaner, and it will quickly leave you with another thing to clear up!

 

 

Major, about stripping painted resin, I understand using IPA in the sonic cleaner is kinda risky, and I should just do a quick rinse in IPA and good ol' scrubbing?

 

If the model is fully painted, you can soak the pieces for about 5-10 minutes and scrub off what you can. The IPA will mostly be in contact with the paint, and will strip it quite well without harming the resin.

 

If the paint is more stubborn, or if you're trying to remove primer, then you are likely to have a harder time getting it off. In these situations, you can just dip the toothbrush into IPA and then scrub it directly onto the model, rinsing it off with clean water periodically.

 

I would also suggest if any paint still remains after this type of clean, that you consider limiting your efforts just to small detail areas (like skulls, eagles, lights, etc) and then simply re-prime over the rest. Afterall, if the old paint isn't obscuring too many details, and if the original undercoat is stuck on that well, then you aren't going to be gaining much by removing it (and you risk damaging the model anyway).

 

 

Btw, does anybody know by chance if the 2nd edition land speeders are lead or white metal/pewter? I have one which still has paint residues even after a long soak in acetone, and I was considering giving it a shot with IPA+sonic cleaner.

 

That Land Speeder was released in about 1995 I think? The Dark Angels version followed towards the end of 1996, and the one my friend owns is made of lead.

 

My recollection is that GW switched over to a lead-free tin alloy (called "White Metal" at the time) in the summer of 1997. I remember because I bought a Necromunda boxed gang that had a "White Metal" sticker on it, and I was very impressed at how much less delicate the models were compared to my older lead ones (who always ended up getting a squashed nose or a bent lasgun when they fell off the terrain we played on).

 

The plastic Land Speeder was released in 1998, and was quite a different design. I would therefore say that if your model was likely bought in a shop rather than via mail-order, and that if it was bought around the date that it was released, then chances are very high that it's a lead model. Don't forget that even after GW started using the lead-free metal, they still had existing stock of models already cast in the older lead metal. Eventually, they sent all the leftover stock to local stores in bigger towns and cities, and had a big "lead sale" in which all the old lead models were sold off once and for all. Thereafter, all new metal models were cast in the lead-free metal, and GW stopped putting "White Metal" stickers on their boxes.

 

A reasonable way to check the metal is to lightly hold and lightly tap two of the bigger pieces against each other. If they are lead, they'll "thunk", but if they are lead-free (i.e., a Tin alloy), they will ring in a more sonorous way (a bit like loose coins in your pocket do). If you have any recent GW metal figures, you can try tapping two unpainted ones together to get an idea of what that should sound like.

 

Hope that helps! :)

[Laughingman]

In my experience (including resin forgeworld models) you can use 91% isopropyl alcohol you just should be mindful of time and heat (usually two  four minute cycles knocks off most of the paint), otherwise the miniatures become overly bendy and take forever to re-harden (as in weeks in not months).... 

[sarabando]

 

I was intending to clean the resin bits using soap and water, but guess I'll have to get some powdered detergent.

 

You can use a bowl of hand-warm water, liquid dish soap, and a toothbrush if you prefer to do it by hand (I usually do).

 

It's just that these liquid soaps typically foam a lot when agitated by the sonic cleaner, and it will quickly leave you with another thing to clear up!

 

 

Major, about stripping painted resin, I understand using IPA in the sonic cleaner is kinda risky, and I should just do a quick rinse in IPA and good ol' scrubbing?

 

If the model is fully painted, you can soak the pieces for about 5-10 minutes and scrub off what you can. The IPA will mostly be in contact with the paint, and will strip it quite well without harming the resin.

 

If the paint is more stubborn, or if you're trying to remove primer, then you are likely to have a harder time getting it off. In these situations, you can just dip the toothbrush into IPA and then scrub it directly onto the model, rinsing it off with clean water periodically.

 

I would also suggest if any paint still remains after this type of clean, that you consider limiting your efforts just to small detail areas (like skulls, eagles, lights, etc) and then simply re-prime over the rest. Afterall, if the old paint isn't obscuring too many details, and if the original undercoat is stuck on that well, then you aren't going to be gaining much by removing it (and you risk damaging the model anyway).

 

 

Btw, does anybody know by chance if the 2nd edition land speeders are lead or white metal/pewter? I have one which still has paint residues even after a long soak in acetone, and I was considering giving it a shot with IPA+sonic cleaner.

 

That Land Speeder was released in about 1995 I think? The Dark Angels version followed towards the end of 1996, and the one my friend owns is made of lead.

 

My recollection is that GW switched over to a lead-free tin alloy (called "White Metal" at the time) in the summer of 1997. I remember because I bought a Necromunda boxed gang that had a "White Metal" sticker on it, and I was very impressed at how much less delicate the models were compared to my older lead ones (who always ended up getting a squashed nose or a bent lasgun when they fell off the terrain we played on).

 

The plastic Land Speeder was released in 1998, and was quite a different design. I would therefore say that if your model was likely bought in a shop rather than via mail-order, and that if it was bought around the date that it was released, then chances are very high that it's a lead model. Don't forget that even after GW started using the lead-free metal, they still had existing stock of models already cast in the older lead metal. Eventually, they sent all the leftover stock to local stores in bigger towns and cities, and had a big "lead sale" in which all the old lead models were sold off once and for all. Thereafter, all new metal models were cast in the lead-free metal, and GW stopped putting "White Metal" stickers on their boxes.

 

A reasonable way to check the metal is to lightly hold and lightly tap two of the bigger pieces against each other. If they are lead, they'll "thunk", but if they are lead-free (i.e., a Tin alloy), they will ring in a more sonorous way (a bit like loose coins in your pocket do). If you have any recent GW metal figures, you can try tapping two unpainted ones together to get an idea of what that should sound like.

 

Hope that helps!

 

man i remember that sale. My local GW had all the games tables pilled to the ceiling with boxes i think i got a box of Death watch terminators and it was missing the flamer

[Elzender]

Thank you guys!

 

 

I was intending to clean the resin bits using soap and water, but guess I'll have to get some powdered detergent.

 

You can use a bowl of hand-warm water, liquid dish soap, and a toothbrush if you prefer to do it by hand (I usually do).

 

That's what I usually do, but there are some bits that still seem to be shiny after 2-3 rounds, so I'll give the sonic cleaner a shot (and if it works, it will make further resin cleaning much easier).

 

About the land speeders, got them from ebay, and I think one of them has a 1994 marking on it, so they will probably be lead. I'll check the sound, but anyways I might just reprime them, the paint remainings are very limited, is just that one of them was stripped completely clean but the other one has some very stubborn paint (different sellers so the primer and paints will probably be different).

 

I think my first test piece will be parts from a RT edition predator, some paint is still stuck despite a long wash and scrubbing with IPA so will see if the sonic cleaner helps removing it.

[Major_Gilbear]

The dates on models/sprues is the copyright date, which is usually a little earlier than the release date. In a few cases, the release date is a lot later than the date marked on the model!

 

With regard to to some paint/staining left on metal models, this is not at all unusual. The rubber moulds are dusted with talc, put into the centrifuge, and then molten metal in poured into the centre of the spinning mould. Once the pour is complete, the machine is stopped, and the mould containing the still-hot metal is carefully removed and put on a rack to cool. After about 15-20 minutes, the moulds are opened and the models/parts are removed. These are carefully snapped off the metal supply channels, and sorted into bins, and the leftover metal from the supply channels is put back into the metal melting pot.

 

I explain all this because the talc which is used to stop the molten metal sticking to the mould sometimes ends up embedded in the surface of the casts, and the older/more worn the mould is, the more talc may end up in the model. Furthermore, as the models cool in the moulds, sometimes small cracks develop where thicker pieces of metal have taken longer to cool than the surrounding areas. Once these are painted, the paint/primer gets into the surface and is then very difficult to completely remove later on - even with solvent and a sonic cleaner.

 

TL;DR version: Don't worry about tiny amounts of paint remaining on old models. It happens sometimes, and it's not unusual. ;)

[OnboardG1]

What model do you use? I'm thinking about getting one for airbrush cleaning and mini stripping.

[Major_Gilbear]

Not sure of the brand, but the one I use looks like this:

 

http://www.ultrasoniccleaners.info/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/51oMtja4YgL.jpg

 

It's big enough to immerse a whole Land Raider into. :D

[H311fi5h]

I found that the heat is probably more important than the actual ultrasonic vibrations when cleaning minis with isopropyl alcohol. I experimented with submerging a bowl filled with isopropyl alcohol and a couple of minis (both plastic and metal) in hot water. The result was pretty much the same as comparable time in the ultrasonic cleaner. 

[grimsanity]

I use super clean in my cleaner. I let them soak about an hour and then turn the cleaner on with no heat. Strips paint of everything.