Iron Hands Series book 2: The Voice of Mars

[Plaguecaster]

So the 2nd Iron hands book from David Guymer is up on Black library now as an ebook

https://www.blacklibrary.com/new-titles/featured/the-voice-of-mars-ebook.html

Now the cover does look pretty awesome I am a bit worrried about the synopsis

"THE STORY

For ten thousand years, the Voice of Mars has been a secretive, but powerful position upon the Iron Council. Yet its ambitions, first seeded during the Horus Heresy, are only now beginning to mature. Iron Father Kristos is charged with unlocking the mysterious Eldar devices known collectively as the ‘Dawnbreak Technologies.’ Before he can recover the first element from Fabris Calivant, the Eldar orchestrate a vicious greenskin invasion which descends upon the Knight World. Kristos soon realises the xenos are not alone in their attempts to thwart his duty. His own brothers also seek to possess the formidable powers for their own ends. In a mission that pitches Clan against Clan, Iron Hand against Iron Hand, to what lengths will the Iron Father go to secure victory?"

Haven't really read much of Guymer's work so don't know what he is like as an aurthor but I never would of thought that the iron hands would be the type to have their own brother's seeking to betray/ thwart the other for their own goals or darker purpose. Sounds like one I'll really have to wait for reviews first before I buy it as I haven't even started the first one yet but with BL's previous works of Iron hands it hasn't left me with much hope though I was surprised since I didn't even know there was a new iron hands series until now

[Manchu warlord]

The only Guymer book I've read was "Ferrus Manus: The Gorgon of Medusa", and I wasn't impressed. However, I feel this Iron Hands book is going to be a lot better than rheir Primarch's one.

[Xisor]

*Massively* excited for this. Got it, but halfway through "Wrath of the Omnissiah", which I want to keep on with first.

 

"Eye of Medusa" was *so* good. Incredibley good stuff. If this is even a tenth as good, I'll be chuffed to bits with it.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Iron Hands Clans fighting each other is pretty fundamental to the Chapters backstory, at least in their older lore - they believe it strengthens them through adversity, what with their aversion to weakness and all that.

 

I'm actually *super* happy to see that being brought back in to be honest, it's something I'd assumed had been scrapped when they suddenly became 'Codex Compliant'.

[Bellarius]

I'm actually *super* happy to see that being brought back in to be honest, it's something I'd assumed had been scrapped when they suddenly became 'Codex Compliant'.

 

Apologies but, after the last book, I would not get your hopes up. This is likely going to end up being a fight between We-need-to-stop-using-bionics-ditch-the-Mechanicus-and-abandon-our-traditions! good guys against straw men who represent the older lore depiction which needs to be erased for the chapter's supposed redemption.

[Manchu warlord]

The Iron Hands are rusty, and nobody likes rust.

[Bellarius]

There's a world of difference between scrubbing off rust and using an update as an excuse to deface them. Writers have managed to remain loyal to the themes and ideas of armies previously while updating them, yet with this chapter every story seems hell-bent on turning them into abject failures. I cannot think of any other attempted update in which the writers seemed so determined to make fans ashamed of ever liking the army in the first place. Please don't get me wrong, I typically like Guymer's works and would happily eat my words if this book doesn't hold the chapter in contempt like previous ones, but his record is against him with the Iron Hands.

 

Anyway, I'll leave you to discuss this further. I simply felt that Iron Hands Fanatic deserved a fair warning given their treatment in Guymer's past two novels.

[Xisor]

Haha. I get you, and I see precisely what you mean by that feeling - it's not pleasant to experience, nor easy to set aside. Especially given the general/historical dearth of "brilliant" (e.g. like what Wraight & MacNiven have given the Scars in recent years) Iron Hands fiction. But I'd contend these are *totally* that good - if only that hurdle can be cleared.

 

So: Yeah, if your still prickly and hurting re:Clan Raukaan - you don't find the jettisoning into the sun that you might have dreamed of. That's certainly true. But I'd contend that's an expectation:reality mismatch, not a book:quality error.

 

In that regard, what Guymer actually undertakes is to examine and expand on both sets of Iron Hands lore and, very literally, test their endurance. (My hope is the conclusion of the story will go far beyond the old stuff and take it into a land of milk and honey, rather than the sortof pitiable state the Codex left them in. From the first book, it feels whatever Guymer does, it'll be good - even if it isn't specifically what I hector about.)

 

There's a beautiful meta about entirled machine people tying themselves in knots about the logical and ideological purity of their beliefs tempered in the fires of battle which, by their own shared beliefs, should leave them purer still, even if it also forces them to cut off bits if themselves.

 

It's paradoxically a navel-gazing spiral of insular wilfulness *and* a means of applying a particularly perverse set of self-correcting, self-propelling ideas into the lore.

 

That it applies to the Iron Hands, their fans, the authors, and their books is fascinating. And brutal. And horrifying. But as a slight outsider - it's also glorious to behold and examine.

 

----

 

For my part, as a bystander who was horrified (and in no small way baffled, but fortunately not feeling personally insulted) by the Clan Raukaan supplement, seeing an author fight through that mess and make something so (brutally) lovely is a sheer delight.

 

----

 

Hells, I'm quite excited.

[Bellarius]

Haha. I get you, and I see precisely what you mean by that feeling - it's not pleasant to experience, nor easy to set aside. Especially given the general/historical dearth of "brilliant" (e.g. like what Wraight & MacNiven have given the Scars in recent years) Iron Hands fiction. But I'd contend these are *totally* that good - if only that hurdle can be cleared.

 

So: Yeah, if your still prickly and hurting re:Clan Raukaan - you don't find the jettisoning into the sun that you might have dreamed of. That's certainly true. But I'd contend that's an expectation:reality mismatch, not a book:quality error.

 

In that regard, what Guymer actually undertakes is to examine and expand on both sets of Iron Hands lore and, very literally, test their endurance. (My hope is the conclusion of the story will go far beyond the old stuff and take it into a land of milk and honey, rather than the sortof pitiable state the Codex left them in. From the first book, it feels whatever Guymer does, it'll be good - even if it isn't specifically what I hector about.)

 

There's a beautiful meta about entirled machine people tying themselves in knots about the logical and ideological purity of their beliefs tempered in the fires of battle which, by their own shared beliefs, should leave them purer still, even if it also forces them to cut off bits if themselves.

 

It's paradoxically a navel-gazing spiral of insular wilfulness *and* a means of applying a particularly perverse set of self-correcting, self-propelling ideas into the lore.

 

That it applies to the Iron Hands, their fans, the authors, and their books is fascinating. And brutal. And horrifying. But as a slight outsider - it's also glorious to behold and examine.

 

----

 

For my part, as a bystander who was horrified (and in no small way baffled, but fortunately not feeling personally insulted) by the Clan Raukaan supplement, seeing an author fight through that mess and make something so (brutally) lovely is a sheer delight.

 

----

 

Hells, I'm quite excited.

 

Very well, it seems I am not leaving then. If you wish to turn this into an argument, so be it.

 

I will argue one fact above all else, this series has followed one format above all else from the start - The old depiction is bad, the new one is good. Quality doesn't matter, logic doesn't matter, how well it sticks to the canon doesn't matter. It simply doubles down time and time again on reiterating the mistakes of this new depiction: That the Iron Hands are shameful errors with no worthy traditions, history or worthwhile accomplishments, and the chapter only exists to orbit Stronos from here on. It continually follows that same error of turning the chapter into little more than one marine's saga to redeem everyone else around him, and does not bother for a moment to even examine if any of the ideas they were founded on are worth keeping. This not only limits the stories which can be told with the chapter as a whole, but reduces the possibilities with what they can be used for, because here and now it begins and ends with Stronos' story and their only thematic choice is how they have damned themselves and betrayed Ferrus. It's monotonal, limited in vision and allows for no counter argument or beneficial depiction to offer any counterpoint.

 

For all the complaints rightfully leveled at Graham McNeill's Ultramarines series and Uriel Ventris, especially when it came to the Codex Astartes, at least it did not re-write the chapter so that everything began and ended with him. If it had followed the same path as this series, every following book would have retained a tunnel-vision focus on how the Codex was wrong, that their traditions were wrong, and that they could only redeem themselves by becoming more like the Space Wolves. We would never have gotten the more varied viewpoints, depictions and alternate takes which benefit the chapter now. The same I would even argue of the White Scars themselves. For all the alterations made in their books and the differing takes, each at least remained loyal to a core theme and the defining aspects of the chapter itself. It never crossed over into the bounds of claiming that their culture of the hunt was utterly wrong, that they needed to put any culture they had developed surrounding it to the torch, and that their demi-Mongol nature was a sin against Jaghatai Khan himself. Plenty of other books have done the same, with the Dark Eldar series, the Night Lords trilogy, and even the Ahriman trilogy to a degree as well. The Iron Hands themselves underwent something similar in Wrath of Iron, which reworked several core elements but still did something beyond trying to make their lore some outright sin anyone, fan or in-universe marine, would be insane for actually finding interesting or engaging. For all the times that they reworked and even deconstructed concepts, they never actively attempted to demonize the chapter as a whole and slam down some decree that their deconstruction was the only correct depiction of the chapter.

 

We have even seen stories which have worked with terrible material and done far better than this in the past. Mortarion's Heart re-wrote the entire event surrounding Draigo so it not only made sense, but was loyal to the themes of the Grey Knights and was a decent story. That was at least written with the intent of taking them in a positive direction and reworking some of the worst written lore the franchise had ever seen, and turning it into genuinely good storytelling. The same can be said of The Emperor's Gift, or The Ghost Halls for that matter. Even when they did seek to break down past legends, histories or ideas, they never went so far as to try and present the army as an outright failure incapable of accomplishing anything. You need only look at Guymer's last novel, the Ferrus Manus novella, to see how this has been reversed. That one took a genuinely great conflict which tried to dispell the concept that Ferrus was a mindless raging brute unworthy of leadership, and that the Iron Hands were simply there to die and make others look better, and turned it on its head. Rather than detailing the primarch, or even giving the legion some much-needed glory moments, it was utterly determined to bring it in line with the Codex: Clan Raukaan way of thinking, and presenting them all as failures who would have lost everything if the Emperor's Children hadn't been there. That is the only direction that this has been going in of late, not fixing, improving or even modernizing the old, but demonizing it and trying to supplant it with a shallow parody of what it once was.

 

I would also argue that your point here cites perhaps the greatest problem with this - "beyond the old stuff and take it into a land of milk and honey". It's an approach which treats the old lore as if there was never anything worthwhile to it, and that simply due to being old it needs to be erased for something else, and that whatever takes its place, no matter the quality or its failings, will simply be inherently good. There's no time taken to even consider the worth of the older lore found in the Index Astartes, or find ways to include it. It simply needs to be wiped out because old = bad, and new = good, even if the new is doing little more than having writers sneer at everything which defined the Iron Hands. Were it cutting bits off, as you put it, I might be open to that idea, but it isn't. Instead its wholesale replacement while decrying their past imagery and trying to present this new version as the only right thing for anyone to be invested in.

 

Finally, and perhaps most pressingly, I would like to make this one point: Whatever qualities or ideas that the meta-commentary offers, it should not come at the cost of good storytelling. Themes, ideas and even layered works can elevate a work in any medium and it can offer benefits to going through them again or considering new angles. The problem is that if this comes at the cost of plot hole ridden narratives, lore which is limited to an extremely narrow depiction of what could be a varied and interesting force, and insane twists which come completely out of left field, then the meta itself has little value to it. It's a beneficial quality, not something which immediately excuses any failings within the writing. Yet, even if it did have some positive benfits to it, the message said by the meta is this: If you are an old fan, we don't want you. You were wrong to like this chapter, support it or field its armies. Only the new is good, and your version needs to die so we can replace you. Get lost if you dislike this.

 

In the face of that, and the inability to actually fix anything more than slightly address more than a few superficial errors while doing nothing about the core ones, my attitude has not changed.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I think the issue is that they're trying to address the fact that technically, it's correct in that the Iron Hands with their love of the machine and hatred of the flesh aren't doing what Ferrus wanted. One of the themes of the Iron Hands that had been partly forgotten is that those things were a response to the death of their Primarch, and a result of their self-loathing and fear of weakness. They see Ferrus' death as their fault, that if they were stronger they could have saved him. During the Crusade, they still had the similar "purge the weak" mindset, it's only after the Istvaan Massacre that they went crazy with it, and in the process started turning themselves into Cybermen because "the flesh is weak".

 

The problem is that this has been so ham-fistedly implemented in novels. Sure, they're not doing what Ferrus wanted, but that doesn't mean there's no merit in what they're doing. Other Chapters have changed dramatically since the Crusade, like the Dark and Blood Angels, but they aren't given the same treatment that the Iron Hands are.

 

EDIT: Basically, they need to acknowledge that the Massacre literally broke the Iron Hands, both organizationally and mentally. They were a shattered Legion that turned their Primarchs mentality of "the weak must die so that the strong can survive" in on itself, as they venerated their Primarch, but surely if he was defeated, that means he was weak? Their response was "no, it was us that was wrong!" They're now so terrified of being weak again, of repeating the failures of the past, that they replace their flesh with augmentations, rather than accepting that Ferrus should have withdrawn, that he pushed ahead too far and too fast.

 

They were a Chapter driven insane by the Heresy. They turned the Keys to Hel, and what came back from that was both the same and utterly changed. They found strength beyond what their Legion had. Unfortunately, it's being interpreted as "but Ferrus didn't condone widespread mechanical augmentation, therefore they suck!1!" 

Was Ferrus an aggressive hot-head? Yeah. That's why he died. It's also why he was an amazing field commander, who should be seen as almost the equal of Horus and the Lion. It's also why the modern Iron Hands reject it utterly and embrace the sterility of the machine. Could it be said that there's worth in rejecting what they've become, and returning to what they were during the Crusade? Of course. The Chapter is essentially a trauma victim that has withdrawn entirely from all human contact so they can't be hurt again. However, doing so would mean accepting that their Primarch was flawed, that his death was due to his actions, and diminishes him in his own philosophy. Their current strength is exactly what is keeping them from accepting that they aren't what they "should" be.

 

This is what Xisor means by it being meta-fluff.

[DukeLeto69]

Wow that is some empassioned discourse

 

As someone who has no vested interest in Iron Hands (or any Astartes Legion/Chapter) and generally prefers books that are focused on normal humans (Inquisitors, Imperial Guard, Arbites) though there have of course been exceptions inc HH series... Should I pick up these Guymer books?

 

I have only read two books by David Guymer. Both from The Beast Arises series. One of them (Echoes of the Long War) was IMO one of the weakest in the series and the other (Last Son of Dorn) was one of the strongest. So I am 50/50 about him as an author right now.

[Xisor]

Okay, maybe I didn't get you, Belisarius, because all of those points seem 100% unrelated from the book I read.

 

It sounds, to me, like those aren't anything to do with the content of 'Eye of Medusa'. I'm not at all sure how you arrive at:

 

"If you are an old fan, we don't want you. You were wrong to like this chapter, support it or field its armies. Only the new is good, and your version needs to die so we can replace you. Get lost if you dislike this."

 

Which is apt, though, because the intolerance and insularity of even the old Index Astartes Iron Hands had that same 'divorced from reality' perspective.

 

It feels like someone reading ADB's Night Lords books and being upset that they are portrayed as fiendishly capable yet also delusional murderers that lack a moderating self-awareness.

 

And somehow infer that reading to be a personal attack on their childhood.

[mc warhammer]

“if you wish to turn this into an argument, so be it”

 

man oh man. it’s called conversation

[Bellarius]

Okay, maybe I didn't get you, Belisarius, because all of those points seem 100% unrelated from the book I read.

 

It sounds, to me, like those aren't anything to do with the content of 'Eye of Medusa'. I'm not at all sure how you arrive at:

 

"If you are an old fan, we don't want you. You were wrong to like this chapter, support it or field its armies. Only the new is good, and your version needs to die so we can replace you. Get lost if you dislike this."

 

Which is apt, though, because the intolerance and insularity of even the old Index Astartes Iron Hands had that same 'divorced from reality' perspective.

 

It feels like someone reading ADB's Night Lords books and being upset that they are portrayed as fiendishly capable yet also delusional murderers that lack a moderating self-awareness.

 

And somehow infer that reading to be a personal attack on their childhood.

 

Oh I don't know, I would say that they are fully related to the book. We have a series here which sides completely with the Codex: Clan Raukaan version of the Iron Hands above all else, and seems to only further that book's interpretation of them, damn anything which contradicts it. The few times that the older depiction comes up, it's yet again treated as being utterly wrong, utterly insane, and something they need to be redeemed of. The benefits, qualities, ideas or even the very reason people might have liked the chapter in the first place is shunned and written off with straw man characters while making it clear Stronos is the only good person and only his way is the one forward.

 

I again cite your statement of how the lore needs to "beyond the old stuff and take it into a land of milk and honey" as being the single worst mentality to have toward this, regarding only the old as being utterly wrong and needing to be supplanted, changed and warped to favour this new bastardisation. It's not even a case of one being the original and the new one different. It's a case of the original being well written, and the new one being a garbled mess of repeated contradictions, insane plot twists and getting even the most basic of details so wrong that someone with a passing knowledge of Warhammer should have been able to point out where they had screwed up. It's the sort of thing which would have been laughed out of the Liber Astartes for poor penmanship when it came to building an army. To have novel series not only further reinforce its points but favour it by further shunning the old and doubling down on that book's every mistake is utterly insane.

 

Also, your Night Lords comment would make no sense at all, because the two are hardly a one-to-one comparison. That, as cited above, made changes to the source material but remained loyal to the core idea of the legion. If it were following the idea of this series, it would be a non-stop effort to wipe out their emphasis on terror tactics, any semblance of competence or capability for murder, and every two sentences would hammer in a ham-fisted message of "WE ARE BETRAYING CURZE111!!!!11!" and that the reader is utterly wrong for actually being invested in those ideals. That's the difference here. Other books which did attempt to make alterations were done with an investment in the army. With the Iron Hands, apparently, it was written only with sheer contempt for the army, and treated it as if it had nothing of worth.

 

Though, if you wish to discuss meta, that is a two-way street. After all, if you can only make a retort by ditching the vast majority of the argument made against you and trying to build a new one from a point which is contradicted by the argument made against you, I can see why you would favour a story which is so weighted in favour of someone like Stronos. I'm sorry, but I am simply not willing to lower my standards far enough to agree with you.

[nagashnee]

@Bellarius while i agree with some of your points, and its clearly obvious you are passionate about this topic you are coming off as a little aggressive in tone mate. And its doing your argument no favours.

 

@OT, half way into the book, its a solidly written piece, plot is ok, my main issue ( same as first one in the series) is that the vast majority of characters are fairly unlikeable, i dont really want to root for anyone to win, more just the really bad ones to lose. A book and a half into the iron hands trilogy i should care what happens to the Iron Hands, but i dont. 

 

The mechanicus supporting characters are fun to read about, in the way the mechanicum always is for me. 

[Xisor]

@DukeLeto: totally go for it. It's brutal and tough reading in places, not an easy breezy page turner, but like "Wrath of Iron" (or more particularly, the short: "Flesh") it captures the horrifying bleakness that so many non-fans (myself included) of the Iron Hands associate with them, but marries it to an immense and wonderfully human creativity - it's properly good sci-fi writing. The sort of thing I would encourage getting folks outside the hobby to read.

 

But, more than that, it breathes life into them. It brings the scope of politics and society into it, it shows the role of religion and the fractional factional clashes of different sects wrangling control of one of the most powerful single sets of one thousand "men" in the Imperium.

 

As said: it's not as easy going as many novels, but it's a huge degree more accessible (and less relentlessly depressing) than "Wrath of Iron" (and that was by Chris Wraight, who's great!).

 

Definitely worth checking out, lots of 'slice of life' sections.

 

----

 

I'd go out on a limb and suggest that part of the point of the Iron Hands, as per "Wrath of Iron" and "Iron Hands" and "Flesh" and "Index Astartes: Iron Hands" and "The Horus Heresy", in a way that's unique to the Iron Hands amongst all First Founding Chapters, is that they aren't personable, at all.

 

The conceit is that their "victory" is not actually good for... anyone. It serves their aims, and fulfils objectives, but likeable it is not.

 

----

 

Perhaps Belisarius has missed the major conceit of "Eye of Medusa" - they are being abused and hijacked by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Any/all of the Clan Raukaan stuff has a *HUGE* get-out clause: all of it at the time of Stronos could be attributed to the machinations of Mars.

 

And even then, it's not clear cut. Can it be repaired? Is it just another test of the weakness of the Iron Hands. How much of it is necessary, how much of it helps achieve their aims?

 

Reading your latest, Belisarius: I feel the nuance of the book, and the delicacy of the ideas, is lost to you. Or worse:held in contempt and disregarded, or mistakenly taken at face value when it is almost explicitly tagged with a great big footnote reading: "this may not be entirely true - too many people are interfering in this to allow even these authorities to speak with authority".

 

I've a sneaking suspicion that might, just a tiny bit, be by design in an effort to reconcile Clan Raukaan with what went before and what is to come after, not to disregard it and crystalise the universe into one set of stories that might be summarised: "the Iron Hands are crap, get over it".

 

(Though if one takes or expects anything from 40k's grand scale and factions that isn't "these factions are all monstrous abominations"...)

[Bellarius]

I'd go out on a limb and suggest that part of the point of the Iron Hands, as per "Wrath of Iron" and "Iron Hands" and "Flesh" and "Index Astartes: Iron Hands" and "The Horus Heresy", in a way that's unique to the Iron Hands amongst all First Founding Chapters, is that they aren't personable, at all.

 

The conceit is that their "victory" is not actually good for... anyone. It serves their aims, and fulfils objectives, but likeable it is not.

 

----

 

Perhaps Belisarius has missed the major conceit of "Eye of Medusa" - they are being abused and hijacked by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Any/all of the Clan Raukaan stuff has a *HUGE* get-out clause: all of it at the time of Stronos could be attributed to the machinations of Mars.

 

And even then, it's not clear cut. Can it be repaired? Is it just another test of the weakness of the Iron Hands. How much of it is necessary, how much of it helps achieve their aims?

 

Reading your latest, Belisarius: I feel the nuance of the book, and the delicacy of the ideas, is lost to you. Or worse:held in contempt and disregarded, or mistakenly taken at face value when it is almost explicitly tagged with a great big footnote reading: "this may not be entirely true - too many people are interfering in this to allow even these authorities to speak with authority".

 

I've a sneaking suspicion that might, just a tiny bit, be by design in an effort to reconcile Clan Raukaan with what went before and what is to come after, not to disregard it and crystalise the universe into one set of stories that might be summarised: "the Iron Hands are crap, get over it".

 

(Though if one takes or expects anything from 40k's grand scale and factions that isn't "these factions are all monstrous abominations"...)

 

There is little to no nuance to this book, and that's plain and simple. It's a bold-faced statement of: The new is right, the old is wrong. You can either side with us or get lost. The very fact that you praise the book for depicting the Adeptus Mechanicus for being depicted in such a powerful role of the book, and that it reinforces the idea that they have this near-total chokehold on the chapter, only further reinforces this failing. It's yet another aspect that Codex: Clan Raukaan shoved into the book, contradicting baseline lore, and rather than easily disregarding it or putting it down to hearsay, and instead further strengthens its place within the canon. Anything Index Astartes related is thrown away, while the new Codex material, no matter how insane or self-contradictory, is simply slammed down as pure fact.

 

I would argue the fact that you are utterly focused on "meta" and "nuance" is a failing on your part. Rather than addressing the core story, treatment of its characters, basic themes or structure of events, you need to relentlessly cite ideas which should be a bonus to the book, not its core appeal. Looking through your words i'm wondering if you have lost sight of what makes a story good over jumbled-up naval-gazing of half-formed ideas surrounding how something can be perceived. Or, worse still, that you're adding things in that simply aren't there, in a desperate attempt to give this series some meaning. That you mistake poor writing and unfinished, mishandled concepts as some subtle brilliance only you can see, and that any who cannot can simply be sneered at and written off as failing to share your brilliance if they do not agree with you on this. Hell, the fact that you have continually and consistently misspelled my forum handle on here makes me seriously question if you can read what is put directly in front of you.

 

The past book's main failing is that it doesn't entertain the idea you bring up here. The Iron Hands are damaged and that is that, and that the only way to repair them is to stop being Iron Hands at all. Rather than using the concept of being a necessary evil effectively, it continually exaggerates and presents it only as a failing time an time again, and never offers a counterpoint to this issue. Again, it's not interested in reconciliation, it's interested only in reinforcing the new over the old. The "Iron Hands are crap" subversion you cite might be worth considering were it not for the fact that every story thus far has only further reinforced that depiction. This is from the same person who used the Ferrus Manus novella to re-write one of their greatest victories as a blunder the Emperor's Children had to save them from and reinforce the idea that they are a legion of failures. From what I have seen so far, I fully expect it to simply be a "Iron Hands are crap, get over it" message as you cite, and if it does subvert it to only follow Codex: Clan Raukaan's example of forcing them to stop being Iron Hands. The very fact that the next novella will be called the Sapphire King only seems to reinforce this. Perhaps it can be re-written to make sense, but the stories told thus far suggest otherwise.

[DukeLeto69]

The Track of Words quick interview with David Guymer included this...

 

+++++

 

https://www.trackofwords.com/2018/04/28/david-guymer-talks-the-voice-of-mars/

 

DG: I’ve always been drawn to characters and factions that I feel have been underserved or poorly treated by the lore. With Star Trek I always want to see more about the Nausicaans or the Bolians. With 40K it’s the Iron Hands.

 

My intention on writing the trilogy was to try to reconcile some of the discontinuities between the Clan Raukaan Codex and the old Index Astartes lore, and in doing that research was struck by the character of the Voice of Mars (a senior Tech-Priest who basically has a sort of chairman role on the Iron Council) and the awesome amount of power he wields. All the Iron Hands lore material naturally emphasizes the power of the Iron Hands, but it seemed pretty obvious to me that compared to the might of the Adeptus Mechanicus the Iron Hands are nothing. This trilogy then became an exploration of how, by controlling its information, by training its leaders, and by rewriting its history, Mars has made the Iron Hands what they are today.

 

+++++

 

Not sure if that helps or not?

 

So should I read these books? Your discussion has piqued my interest!

[Bellarius]

The Track of Words quick interview with David Guymer included this...

 

+++++

 

https://www.trackofwords.com/2018/04/28/david-guymer-talks-the-voice-of-mars/

 

DG: I’ve always been drawn to characters and factions that I feel have been underserved or poorly treated by the lore. With Star Trek I always want to see more about the Nausicaans or the Bolians. With 40K it’s the Iron Hands.

 

My intention on writing the trilogy was to try to reconcile some of the discontinuities between the Clan Raukaan Codex and the old Index Astartes lore, and in doing that research was struck by the character of the Voice of Mars (a senior Tech-Priest who basically has a sort of chairman role on the Iron Council) and the awesome amount of power he wields. All the Iron Hands lore material naturally emphasizes the power of the Iron Hands, but it seemed pretty obvious to me that compared to the might of the Adeptus Mechanicus the Iron Hands are nothing. This trilogy then became an exploration of how, by controlling its information, by training its leaders, and by rewriting its history, Mars has made the Iron Hands what they are today.

 

+++++

 

Not sure if that helps or not?

 

So should I read these books? Your discussion has piqued my interest!

 

Not really, it only confirms my viewpoint that this was blending one with the other but seemed to focus on the former rapidly erasing the latter. The fact that he is focused on the Voice of Mars - again, something which was such a titanically stupid idea that multiple readers cited it as a problem on its release - seems to only confirm that. As does the disparaging comparison between the chapter and the Mechanicus itself, which only reinforces the Codex's depiction of them as little more than leashed thugs utterly beholden to the will of Mars. If they wanted to do that, they could have had a Steel Confessors series, and I would have welcomed that. Even if it was a balanced and fair blend, the main problem is yet again the fact that one was written with the intent of making them engaging, and the other was of the quality and direction of a hatred fuelled piece penned by a first-time writer determined to demonize a faction they hate. It's akin to trying to blend a cream cake with a turd. No matter how you do it, it's not going to end well.

 

I appreciate the link, but it does not change my mind at all.

[DarkChaplain]

This discussion actually makes me want to read Eye of Medusa now...

[Xisor]

I have a vague notion that I've fallen down a rabbit hole and found myself arguing* with the personification & essence of the book I'm praising.

 

* @Bellarius: I enjoy this sort of thing. It's... stimulating. These are points I don't often directly consider, so the distinction between conversation/argument isn't so important for me, provided that it's edifying and engaging and not 100% unenjoyable for other parrties. What *is* important is not inadvertently disrespecting people - so I'm keen to proffer HUGE apologies on the handle misspelling. It's annoying with names, and with only (mostly) text to work with - I expect it may be even worse online, especially in a big dialogue. Again: apologies.

 

To that end: Duke - it helps a huge amount, and similarly doesn't change my mind in the slightest! :D At least what Herr Guymer himself is saying sounds appealing!

 

But also:100% yes - read the book. I edited the top of an earlier post but as the conversation is fast-paced, edits are perhaps not the best method for clarification. So I'll include it here too:

 

 

----

 

 

"@DukeLeto: totally go for it. It's brutal and tough reading in places, not an easy breezy page turner, but like "Wrath of Iron" (or more particularly, the short: "Flesh") it captures the horrifying bleakness that so many non-fans (myself included) of the Iron Hands associate with them, but marries it to an immense and wonderfully human creativity - it's properly good sci-fi writing. The sort of thing I would encourage getting folks outside the hobby to read.

 

But, more than that, it breathes life into them. It brings the scope of politics and society into it, it shows the role of religion and the fractional factional clashes of different sects wrangling control of one of the most powerful single sets of one thousand "men" in the Imperium.

 

As said: it's not as easy going as many novels, but it's a huge degree more accessible (and less relentlessly depressing) than "Wrath of Iron" (and that was by Chris Wraight, who's great!).

 

Definitely worth checking out, lots of 'slice of life' sections."

- Me, just moments earlier in 2018.

[Bellarius]

* @Bellarius: I enjoy this sort of thing. It's... stimulating. These are points I don't often directly consider, so the distinction between conversation/argument isn't so important for me, provided that it's edifying and engaging and not 100% unenjoyable for other parrties. What *is* important is not inadvertently disrespecting people - so I'm keen to proffer HUGE apologies on the handle misspelling. It's annoying with names, and with only (mostly) text to work with - I expect it may be even worse online, especially in a big dialogue. Again: apologies.

 

Apology accepted, and I am sorry myself if I proved to be overly aggressive. I typically limit myself simply to watching the forums to avoid this thing. I will leave you to discuss the book as previously mentions, now it has seen release.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm honestly confused on one point here. I think it is clear that the Clan Raukaan supplement was almost universally disliked by the community and that it overthrew a lot of established stuff. However, it is canon. The studio mandated it as such, so there's no real way around it as a modern, present-day Iron Hands source.

 

So what, exactly, should Guymer have done? Just blatantly ignored it, pretended it didn't exist, and tell a story that didn't mesh with the current lore? I mean, the Voice of Mars may have been a badly conceived idea in the supplement, but if you're talking about the council, you're bound to have to address this part. Guymer seems to be trying to reconcile old and new in a way that works within the setting and with the established lore, no matter how recent it may have been. Honestly, I am curious how this trilogy wraps up and works out as a whole.

 

As much as I'd like to discard the whole Primaris Marines stuff, they're now part of the setting and the best we can hope for is for authors to properly tie them into the setting and clear up problems that arose in the campaign books / 8th rulebook and Codex releases. Guy Haley's been doing just that, as have others, and I'd be surprised if Guymer doesn't contribute similarly to the Iron Hands before all is said and done. Besides, I'd be hugely confused if David was pushing some sort of "Clan Raukaan is the best, let the past die" agenda when he himself didn't seem to like the supplement much to begin with.

 

So, the question remains, what should have been done here, with this trilogy, instead?

[nagashnee]

I'm honestly confused on one point here. I think it is clear that the Clan Raukaan supplement was almost universally disliked by the community and that it overthrew a lot of established stuff. However, it is canon. The studio mandated it as such, so there's no real way around it as a modern, present-day Iron Hands source.

 

 

 

Wait, since when does GW even have or claim to have a hard canon? I mean this in complete seriousness, GW has said in the past that its views on a hard canon are pretty much non existent. Even if they werent, BL constantly changes the 'canon', look at the epic mess the Nikea change has done to the HH as a easy example. Heck they MAKE books to change codex 'canon' like mortarions heart, tho i agree rarely complete changes.

 

Neither is codex 'canon' or bl 'canon' a sacred thing, one ignores the other ( or indeed themselves) whenever it suits them, look at swallows hated BA book and all the mentions they ever got in the codexes or future books. 

 

 

GW and BL change things, if they cant change something which is hated by the vast majority of their customers then i really dont see what they can change. Pull a newcrons and just invent stuff you want while pretending the old never existed.

[DarkChaplain]

Mortarion's Heart didn't change anything about the Codex entry, mind. It just put it into context and made it work in a proper format, where in the Codex, it was a brief note that, with no further context, sounded ridiculously stupid.

Citing Swallow's Blood Angels novels isn't going to work either, considering those were the product of a completely different era where C.S.Goto had literally the wrong gear on tanks and in Astartes' hands. Things have moved a great deal since, and that particular series has never been considered a canon thing.

On the other side, Uriel Ventris is a Codex character, as is the battle for Macragge, the whole siege of Nocturne, etc.

 

Yes, GW and BL change things, but they rarely outright contradict or abandon ideas. Even when they do, it is normally ancient background that was conceived before the franchise had much structure yet. There's a lot more editorial oversight on what fits into the franchise and what doesn't these days. As a rule of thumb, if a Codex or Rulebook talks about an event happening, it happened. The details may be fuzzy and the note brief, but they're not going to backpedal and say it didn't actually happen, even if in the following editions it may not be expressly featured in the Codex anymore. More often than not, the Codex entries are left deliberately vague not only to save space, but also to leave room for interpretation - which the novels obviously provide.

 

The Newcrons were probably the biggest relaunch thing they did over the past decade and a half. Even that didn't go over well with a lot of folks. However, it was also tied into the fluff and explained in various ways, and we've rarely even seen Necrons in full force before - they basically added special characters and dudes who maintained their memories, and turned the homogenous tomb worlds into their own civilizations. It's not that they took away things, they switched some things around and added a bunch. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head what precisely the changes would have invalidated, at least (even the Nightbringer in McNeill's Nightbringer novel still works if he was just a shard in the book and not the full thing).

 

The Horus Heresy series itself is actually a pretty terrible example of that, as it has only recently received proper studio treatment via ForgeWorld. Before, it was a collection of rough event sketches and card artworks and character names with cliffnotes of what they did. It was painted in very rough strokes (not without brilliance), but even with the novel series, a proper plan didn't crystallize until the double digits. Even then, ForgeWorld's Black Books are written from a biased in-universe perspective, and deliberately so.

 

Fact of the matter is, these days authors are expected to put in research for what they're commissioned to write. They used to get the relevant material straight from GW/BL as well (Mike Lee, for example, received photocopied pages of the Tomb Kings material back when he was tasked with writing the Nagash trilogy for Time of Legends, as per his foreword). There is an expectation of authors remaining true to the established setting and factions (and that's what the Codex releases provide the framework of), and few authors have the leeway to really spin their own yarn and disregard things (of which Abnett is possibly the only one now; even before his works were often put separate from the rest of the franchise, however). As a result, Guymer could not simply have thrown aside the Clan Raukaan supplement even if he wanted to. It has become a central part of the Iron Hands' lore.