Iron Hands Series book 2: The Voice of Mars

[nagashnee]

So to sum it up, GW never changes or ignores things except when they do, and when they do it doesnt count cause it was then but this is now? And if they do change things they do in such as way so as the changes are minimised but that couldn't be done with this case because the other cases are other and this case is this case?

 

And this case is 'central lore' not like small pesky things, like Chapter wide civil wars, entire factions established background, the creation of the space marine librarius.

 

So as long as GW never ever retcons anything ever again you are 100% correct my friend. But i aint holding my breath. 

 

 

The iron hand lore was not changed because the studio did not want it to, nothing inherently wrong with the decision, tho i would argue it was the wrong one. 

[DukeLeto69]

@xisor "slice of life" then count me in. I am not desperate to buy these books so will wait for the paperback release and clearly need to read book one first! Thanks for recommendation and thanks everyone for the edifying discussion. Without this "controversy" I would have probably passed these by and dismissed them as "just another set of Space Marine books"

[Lord_Caerolion]

Basically it's just a case of GW taking their continuity a bit more seriously recently than they have in the past. There has to be at least a core of common canon, no matter what some people may claim, otherwise you can have an equally valid interpretation that the Eldar are actually just human cosplayers, etc. It used to be that Black Library authors could pretty much do what they want, until we got books like the Goto ones, where Eldrad is a secret Slaanesh worshipper, Marines are armed with multilasers, and Terminators are capable of doing backflips. Also, everything brays. Everything.

 

So yeah, stuff can still be retconned, it's just that now it's a result of the actual direction of the studio, not just "one author wrote some stupid stuff, and now we gotta sweep it under the rug, rather than just having some quality-control".

[Major_Gilbear]

I understand how controversial the Iron Hands 40k fluff from 6E onwards is - I started posting on B&C around that time, and some of my earliest posts were in the IH subforum. Even though the question asked in that thread all that time ago was pretty innocent ("how do IH -and IH players- mark out their Sergeants in 40k"), it quickly devolved into very heated arguments about the more Codex-compliant way the IH were portrayed in the SM Codex of the time vs how they'd been portrayed previously.

 

Two further editions on, it's clear that the new IH lore is here to stay and that GW consider it to be the direction they want to go in with the IH. I think it's also safe to say that many people are rather divided on their opinion of both the changes to the lore, and how they have been handled by GW and the authors they've commissioned.

 

I would therefore request that people are civil in their discussion, and that they remain considerate and sensitive to other's opinions in posting with regard to this subject. I would also like to remind people that this thread is specifically about the new IH book and the lore relevant to its content, and that discussion of other author's treatment of other aspects of 40k is therefore outside the scope of this topic's discussion.

[Icarus1138]

Now the cover does look pretty awesome I am a bit worrried about the synopsis

"THE STORY

For ten thousand years, the Voice of Mars has been a secretive, but powerful position upon the Iron Council. Yet its ambitions, first seeded during the Horus Heresy, are only now beginning to mature. Iron Father Kristos is charged with unlocking the mysterious Eldar devices known collectively as the ‘Dawnbreak Technologies.’ Before he can recover the first element from Fabris Calivant, the Eldar orchestrate a vicious greenskin invasion which descends upon the Knight World. Kristos soon realises the xenos are not alone in their attempts to thwart his duty. His own brothers also seek to possess the formidable powers for their own ends. In a mission that pitches Clan against Clan, Iron Hand against Iron Hand, to what lengths will the Iron Father go to secure victory?"

 

I finished the book, and enjoyed it! I do have to say that this synopsis is genuinely bizarre, because it's not the plot. I'm not going to spoil anything, but a good example of how odd this description is is that it makes Kristos sound like the protagonist, when he's actually the antagonist. There's a greenskin invasion, but the cause of it is unimportant to the story and never explained (it's just Orks being Orks as far as I can tell, no Eldar involved). There are other problems as well that pointing out would involve spoilers. Essentially, this synopsis seems to have been written by someone that had the story described to them briefly, while distracted.

[Icarus1138]

 

I'm actually *super* happy to see that being brought back in to be honest, it's something I'd assumed had been scrapped when they suddenly became 'Codex Compliant'.

 

Apologies but, after the last book, I would not get your hopes up. This is likely going to end up being a fight between We-need-to-stop-using-bionics-ditch-the-Mechanicus-and-abandon-our-traditions! good guys against straw men who represent the older lore depiction which needs to be erased for the chapter's supposed redemption.

 

 

 

The Voice of Mars makes an effort to emphasize that the culture of the Iron Hands comes from three sources being mixed together: Medusan tradition (Eye of Medusa even says that some Iron Hands consider the human, pre-Imperial founders of Medusas clans to be as important to their chapter as Ferrus Manus), Ferrus Manus (his teachings, geneseed, and death), and the Mechanicus. The book (and some characters in it) raises the question of where the Mechanicus-related traditions came from, their effect on the chapter, and whether they are an important part of being an Iron Hand or a later development that the chapter might do better without.

 

Bellarius, you're worried about older lore being ignored or re-written? My take is that older lore relating to Medusa or Ferrus Manus is being emphasized. This includes clans being independent and culturally unique entities (clans have different dialects, cultures, barter between each other for supplies, come to blows, etc), Medusa itself having an effect on the chapter, debates over Ferrus Manus' true fate, and so on. All of that old lore is more evident than it was in the Raukaan supplement. Traditions that come solely from the Mechanicus' influence are the ones that are being questioned by the novel.

[nagashnee]

After putting allot of thought into this book i finally narrowed down my issue with it. They book is well written, thought and care have been put into writing it, the plot, the characters the setting are all well presented. But this book fails in 1 key respect, it is a not a good book to read if you actually PLAY Iron hands.  

 

Sure it adds depth to the lore, adds shades to the chapter, mayhaps even one or two novel concepts, but like its predecessor eye of medusa and even Guymmers Iron Hand Primarch book they never ever deliver any wins to the faction and so de facto the player base they are meant to be aimed to. Iron Hand owners.  Now i specify owner because fan and owner are not the same thing. I myself have always been a fan of the Necrons for example, but i down own any, i have not invested large amounts of time and money and countless hours gaming and making up my own characters and units and backstory etc. I am a necron fan, but not a necron owner.

 

What does this have to to do with the book? If i was a Iron Hand owner i would be even angrier then before ( and not in a good fluffy way), this book like those works on this chapter from the same author does nothing but dump salt into a bitter bitter wound. No redeeming features, no 'win' moments, no heroic characters ( in their own iron hand way). Slaves, fools and blind men are what you get, and while it can be fun to read about, i would HATE this book if  i owned this faction.  

 

The night lords trilogy started armies, betrayer started armies, scars started armies, i just cant see someone reading this and saying, Iron Hands ! They are they army for me! Which leads to the question, who are these books being written for?

[Scribe]

I continue to get the feeling that Wrath of Iron was the end of the Iron Hands fiction. There is nothing left to be told, unless you want to change their story, like this series appears to be doing.

[Roomsky]

who are these books being written for?

 

*Raises hand*

 

I have a few friends who play, but the game has literally never interested in it. Thus, whether or not a faction wins means close to nothing to me, much as the likability of that faction. For example, I've never bought into the irritation at the Wolves repeatedly getting their behinds handed to them throughout the heresy: I care about the characters, the culture, and the arc. I say "hell yeah!" when someone pulls of a cool victory, of course, but I don't go in expecting it, much like a don't expect a story to necessarily have broader meaning to the universe *cough*DamnationofPythosisunfairlylambasted*cough*. 

 

I like Guymer's work, more on a personal level than any kind of objective one, but his writing has meat and he has a willingness to dive head first into the atrocities of the universe, sympathy be damned. Perhaps we're better off that the BL stable isn't full of Guymers, but it's a side of the universe I'm glad to see. All this talk of world building, too, has me excited to read this series, whenever I get around to it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Yeah, but you can do all that and still make a chapter look good. Guymer just keeps pooping on the Medusan fan base.

[Roomsky]

Just to be clear, my argument isn't that anyone else is wrong for being annoyed by such things, it's a legitimate enough criticism. It simply doesn't affect my own enjoyment. 

[DarkChaplain]

Yeah, but you can do all that and still make a chapter look good. Guymer just keeps pooping on the Medusan fan base.

 

Strange, considering he himself IS a fan of the Iron Hands, particularly the pre-Raukaan stuff as far as I am aware.

 

I'm with Roomsky on this one. I don't need fancy flashy victory parades just because I like a faction or play them. I want them to be presented with their cultures and character foremost, even if they lose or their downsides are shown in detail. 40k is rarely clear-cut about things like victory to begin with (heck, the Siege of Terra is one example of it), and I'm more interested in exploration of flaws and mindsets than battles or glorification of factions.

 

Dante was a big deal for me because the book managed to highlight the life of a venerable character while also showcasing the inherent problems and flaws of the Blood Angels, for example. It showed the way they may have to put down aspirants who succumb, the brutal races to be selected, the hard living conditions, the Thirst, and they get their butts handed to them by Tyranids. I didn't need or really want the BAs to pull off a magnificent victory, because the crux terminatus of the matter was development of the Chapter, it's philosophies and place in the galaxy, their internal struggles. Even if it wasn't, I'd rather see a pyrrhic victory than a clear one.

 

From the sounds of it, Guymer dives into internal schisms, mindsets, clashes of philosophy and the Chapter's spiritual origins a great deal, while bringing together the various strands of lore. That, to me, is more interesting by far than "The Iron Hands go to war and win because they've got the shiniest iron hands around and are clearly better than any other Chapter ever".

[bluntblade]

I always thought the Iron Hands' rep outside of the Dropsite Massacre was fairly solid, although Old Earth didn't do them any favours (Meduson falling to exactly the same flaws as Ferrus just felt lazy to me).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I don't want victory parades either. I want Wright back at the helm because Wrath of Iron was the best example of the Iron Hands ever printed.

 

Guymer, like the supplement writers and Kyme before him, seems to have an issue taking what is supposed to make the Iron Hands strong - their bionic resilience and mechanical, near-emotionless mindset - and make them into weaknesses. Imagine the fan backlash if the Salamanders were more vulnerable to flame or the Black Rage/Red Thirst made Blood Angels less effective in close combat.

[bluntblade]

I get where you're coming from there. What do you make of John French and Alan Bligh's take, and how it carries over to French's Cryos shorts?

[Xisor]

If I've learnt anything from these books, it's that Iron Fathers are the real entitled fools with no self-awareness that are pooping all over Ferrus Manus' legacy.

 

----

 

Frankly, as a Salamanders fan, I'm now in the camp where I'd *love* for Guymer to do a 'manders book or fifty.

 

Him or Fehervari. Or Guy.

 

Actually - plenty of people.

[Ingo Pech]

I don't want victory parades either. I want Wright back at the helm because Wrath of Iron was the best example of the Iron Hands ever printed.

 

Guymer, like the supplement writers and Kyme before him, seems to have an issue taking what is supposed to make the Iron Hands strong - their bionic resilience and mechanical, near-emotionless mindset - and make them into weaknesses. Imagine the fan backlash if the Salamanders were more vulnerable to flame or the Black Rage/Red Thirst made Blood Angels less effective in close combat.

 

The fault doesn't lie with Guymer but with GW and the BL and the crappy Clan Raukaan-supplement.

 

Guymer just tries to solve all the myriads of contradictionary characterizations of the Iron Hands while flashing out their background, homeworld, organization, structure and history.

 

I don't envy him for this task but I like the outcome - at least the largest part and even if it means that the Iron Hands are the bad guys.

 

And "today" the "good" Iron Hands are those who follow Stronos' view, where the Iron Hands don't rely (just) on their bionics and coldhearted logic but on their fortitude and superhuman biology (too).

 

Guymer just tries to untangle and straighten the past, because the present was set by the supplement and the latest SM-Codex (which I haven't).

 

But that's my point of view...

[Xin Ceithan]

For my two coins of your local currency, I am halfway through Eye of Medusa and I quite like it.

It does make an attempt to bring in older fluff amongst the new stuff and while I do not consider myself a "hardcore" IH fans, I always had a soft spot for their Mechanicus/Space Marine mash up and the way they were represented in the old IA articles.

The new "Codex Chapter" approach was quite a let down to me.

So I think the approach is quite well designed - it brings back the old Clan Companies and the rivalry and still has them use a set up that would be recognizable to an outsider as "So that's their scout company". To which an IH would not so much as as shrug and be done with it.

I like the glimpse at the Mad Max version of the Medusan tribes. I just love how what utter bastards the IH characters are by way of their Medusan nature alone and while they have their Flesh-is-weak Terminator style cyborg badass moment, I feel like they lost something by going all augmentation. They are out of balance after ten thousand years PTSD style not really recovering from Ferrus loss but it is not so Woe-is-Me that it is handed to you every other page. I like how the Iron Father Dread has flash back sequences to show how different the IH are during the Scouring compared to the M41 Chapter. They are not simply just modern IH in a different paint job.

There is a tragedy to it about what they and the Imperium lost after Istvaan and in the Heresy.

Yes, it opens the IH up to manipulation and abuse by the Mechanicus.That's part of the tragedy to me. And I take tragiccharacters over Mary Sue any day ( But I grew up in what comic history calls the "Iron Age"- so, go and figure :p )

 

I picked this up to get some ideas for an IH character for a PbP campaign on that sub forum. I felt it a challenge to differentiate and write something up to distinguish from a Techpriest to an IH Techmarine. Eye of Medusa has given me enough bits to draw from, with quotes and catchphrases and such. It pushed my mental image more away from a poorly carbon copy Schwarzenegger cyborg to an augmented Russel Crow or Tom Hardy. So I do not know if would make somebody else want to model an army after it. But I do not see this as a Miniature supplement. It gives, maybe even returns to the IH a unique character and tries to bridge the old to the new. It is not perfect, but it adapts and attempts to improve. Which is very Iron Hand on it's own.

 

Long story short : I found Salamanders interesting and couldn't sit trough the original series. I considered playing a Sally because I initially thought there might be more storytellling / role playing options than with an IH (maybe especially after Wrath of Iron - great read but what does an individual IH do? ) Then I thought about having to sit through any Kyme to have something to even move my character AWAY from and decided I could not go there. So I went for an Iron Hand. I picked up Eye of Medusa and I am still reading it, loving what it adds to my character and look forward to read Voice of Mars.

[Hit0k1ri]

Hi there, brothers!

Long time silent lurker, first time writer .

 

Two of my favourite lines from the book 2. Reveal IH approach pretty well:

 

- The machine’s spirit altered them [Knights], made them care about things that Rauth knew a warrior should not. Things like honour, brotherhood, sacrifice... (с) IH scout Arven Rauth, seconded to Deathwatch

- ‘If it is glory or honour you crave then you should have died mortal.’ IH Tactical Sergeant Jalenghaal, clave Jalenghaal

 

IMHO David did an excellent job, exploring all that old Chapter fluff & stuff and very diligently introduced it into his books (hell, even old-timers like Iron Father Gdolkin and minor guys like Morvox from Wright's novel were mentioned). As a veteran IH player I'm absolutely pleased with Guymer's fair representation of IH, all that interclan complex relationships, backstabbing, resource wars, insane cyborgisation, preference for cold logic, calculus of battle, etc. As much as I didn't like Guymers Heresy IH (in Primarchs series - so empty and faded), so much I like their 40k counterparts. Imperium needs not only Ultramarine type (no offense intended!) knights in shining armor but also sanctioned robotic monsters who will bring the matter to the end no matter the cost. 

 

P.S. I'm really sorry for my poor English.

 

P.P.S. And those subtle English humor, in both novels...

 

‘Agreed,’ said Artex.

‘I am glad you agree, brother. Does the interlink convey my gladness?’

A pause. ‘No.’

‘I am glad.’

[bluntblade]

Worth noting that Wrath of Iron flags up their sickness too, even as it depicts their strength

[Hit0k1ri]

For me, this book was a complete disappointment - boring characters without any development, a plot that was known in advance as with all SM Battles series books but this time the author did not bring anything new or interesting, not inspiring fighting scenes. IMHO, Wrath of Iron was one of the weakest works of Chris Wright. But the accompanying short story The Flesh I really liked.

[Fedor]

Worth noting that Wrath of Iron flags up their sickness too, even as it depicts their strength

 

True, it was Wraight that started the whole thing about Ferrus not really wanting them to become the Borg and also really emphasised how much of the "flesh is weak" mindset was like a form of ptsd.

 

I've not yet read Guymer's take on 40k IH, but his Primarch book  was a missed opportunity to show a legion at the height of it's power(probably the only legion that really needed their book to take that route, especially considering the forgeworld fluff on Gardinaal) and wasn't set at the right time at all to provide much of a link to the mindset of 40k hands or show the more reflective Ferrus in the Wrath of Iron quotes.

 

Do we get any further Ferrus lore in these books?

[Hit0k1ri]

Nope. But there is a lot of new stuff about post-Ferrus (especially about Mechanicus-IH "relationship"). Dark secrets and all that...

[Machine God]

I as an Iron Hand Fan and Owner thoroughly agree with both Bellarius' and Iron Father Ferrum's viewpoint.

 

This book whilst a good read in itself is also GW as the publishers of Clanb**k Raccoon saying that the Iron Hands are Codex adherent and cybernetics are bad. They are saying through Guymer's writing as his master's that "You will love Kardon Stronus!" "He is the 40K version of Shadrak Meduson!"

 

Whilst yes there was inter Clan rivalry, there was no inter Clan fighting or bloodshed, it is still implied that Iron Hands move about in the chapter from Clan to Clan as easily as Company to Company in a Codex adherent Chapter would do.

 

There are though a few good snippets of Iron Hands loathing of other Chapters. Boarding another chapters warship during the ork battle to kill and capture a Dreadnought just because they didn't have a spare one available for a fallen Iron Hand.

[DukeLeto69]

So it appears that if you are an Iron Hands "fan/player" you generally do not like these Guymer books...

 

If you are a Black Library fan per se (but not specifically an Iron Hands fan as above) then you generally do like these Guymer books!

 

As I fall into this latter group (and in fact have no vested interest in any chapter) then it looks like I would enjoy these :-)