Sexy Salamander Trick

[d36williams]

I don't run Salamanders but did discover a recent hilarious trick that they have

 

Ok first off, in 8e, Dice Rolls happen one at a time except in Roll Offs. So while we often roll all the dice at once, that is a time saving convention. For example:

 

If you 5 Scouts, 4 in cover and 1 is not. They get shot. You roll your armor save one at a time, until a fail, then remove the Scout not in Cover. The remaining 4 Scouts get the benefit of the Cover Save for the remainder of the saves.

 

Ok so now, let's say you have a Devastator Squad next to a Chapter Ancient. 

 

And they get shot, a lot. Lets say it's 1000 rounds of lasrifle.  

 

You roll it one at a time, and the 1st Salamander fails his armor save. He's dead. He rolls the Ancient Banner and gets it.

 

Salamander Chapter Tactic: You can re-roll a single failed hit roll and a single failed wound roll made for a Salamanders unit with this tactic each time it shoots or fights.

 

Now you shoot with that Sally, he's gets his CT rerolls.

 

Now you're back to rolling armor saves. Next guy dies, gets to shoot again. He also gets the rerolls. So on indefinitely.

 

Its hardly OP but definitely something I want Salamander players to take advantage of.  I want to spread knowledge of this rule interaction, I hope if we find every trick in the book we can help bring the Codex up a level.

[Ahistorian]

I see where you're coming from given your premises, but this seems to reeeeally tread the line of RAI/RAW. I'm not sure many people would take that with good grace.

[LucidNinja]

I think that's a bit gross.

I've been toying with the idea of a chaplain dreadnought getting boosted by a relic and a librarian so he'd be Toughness 9...thats about as cheesy as I'd go

[Captain Idaho]

It doesn't hold water as the shooting is considered simultaneous from each unit. A unit fires once regardless if you roll the dice one at a time or not.

[Ahistorian]

It doesn't hold water as the shooting is considered simultaneous from each unit. A unit fires once regardless if you roll the dice one at a time or not.

 

...and if the shooting is simultaneous, the casualties caused must be too! Thanks Captain, there was something niggling at me about the logic =]

[d36williams]

Pg 181 of the basic rule book, models roll their attacks one at a time. Later in the BRB it lays out that you can roll dice in bunches to save time. 

 

I reference my example of the Scouts -> "If you 5 Scouts, 4 in cover and 1 is not. They get shot. You roll your armor save one at a time, until a fail, then remove the Scout not in Cover. The remaining 4 Scouts get the benefit of the Cover Save for the remainder of the saves."

 

If you're not taking advantage of that in-game function I can see mistakenly believing that all saves are simultaneous. 

 

Simultaneity was a thing in 6th and 7th

 

BRB: "The rules for resolving attacks (pg 181) have been written assuming you will make them one at a time."

[d36williams]

Here's another thought experiment that at least proves a part of my claim:

 

Imagine a Sally unity getting shot by a cultist squad, loses 1 model, gets the Ancient, uses CT.

 

Ok now a 2nd Cultist squad shoots the Sallys; 1 model dies. This is an even more clear example of a time to shoot again.

 

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3rd ancillary example; Overwatch.

 

Sally squad is charged by 1 unit. gets to overwatch with Sally CT.

 

Charge fails. Sally squad is charged by unit #2; gets to overwatch with Sally CT.

 

So already we see Salamanders using their CT multiple times in the opponent's turn and even multiple times within an opponents Phase. 

 

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4th proof that ties it all together.

Imagine a Salamander Veteran Squad, where 3 models have Plasma Guns and 1 Model has a Stormshield, 1 Model has Melta. Because of the Stormshield you decide to roll all your armor saves on that one model. Pass pass pass fail, pick up stormshield model. Now roll on the Ancient, he shoots again with Stormbolter. 

 

Back to the armor saves, take all the armor saves on the Melta model. Pass pass fail, pick up Melta, he repeats the Ancient and again is a discrete and seperate shooting instance unrelated to the Stormshield instance. He too takes advantage of the Sally CT.

 

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Last I'd like to point out this is the Marines we're talking about, in a very specific circumstance where Salamander models are dying. This is hardly gamey because what we're talking about is using Duct Tape to keep our tires inflated here, not game breaking the rest of 40k.

[Captain Idaho]

Part 1 of the Shooting section settles it all.

 

1. Choose Unit to Shoot With

 

In your Shooting phase you can shoot

with models armed with ranged weapons.

First, you must pick one of your units

to shoot with. You may not pick a unit

that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit.

 

Unless otherwise stated, each model in

the unit attacks with all of the ranged

weapons it is armed with. After all of the

unit’s models have fired, you can choose

another unit to shoot with, until all

eligible units that you want to shoot with

have done so.

 

It's clear cut that you choose a unit to fire with then once that unit has fired you choose another unit to fire with.

 

By its definition, a unit that shoots in the shooting phase is considered to have done so once you've fired all weapons you want or are eligible.

 

It has not considered to have fired twice or more if you roll separately.

 

In fact, by your logic, because a unit can only fire once per shooting phase, you couldn't split your fire at all or resolve them separately as that would be firing more than once.

 

It's a case of unit vs model. A unit fires once each turn. The models in each unit can fire individually, separately and even with multiple weapons.

[Captain Idaho]

So in the case of defensive use with the Banner rules, whenever a unit fires is the question. I'd argue that each time a unit attacks the unit you get the benefit of the Chapter Tactics if the Banner kicks in.