Land Raiders

[Walsy93]

So I've been sick and house bound for the past few days and finally got around to assembling and painting a Land Raider that's been gathering dust in my closet for about a year....

 

Having just finished that hobby project I wanted to ask, is there any place for a Land Raider in a Dark Angels army in this brave new world? I haven't seen any lists for a while that included them.

[Burias-Drak'shal]

I love land raiders but I don't see them in competive lists either as I think they are a lot of points and other things can do similar jobs but are less points.

[sneakybamsen]

They are too expensive for what they do to feel worthwhile. Not just in a competitive context, also for casual gaming, unfortunately. Land Raiders are super cool, but 4 las shots you can get from a laspred for just over half the points. Yes, it's less tough and doesn't bring a twin heavy bolter or have Power of the Machine Spirit, but even so, it's so much cheaper. Devastators can also provide those 4 lascannon shots for a lot less.

The redeemer is imho the least used variant, flamers just aren't big in this edition. Crusaders are a little cheaper than their cousins, and do kill chaff well, but they are still more than 300 points, and die as easily (it's not hard to kill a land raider) as the others, so most often, as they are so expensive, you'll end up with an opponent that will target them, just because there are fewer other targets on the board.

Yes, they can transport our dear Deathwing, but that doesn't justify their cost. They still get melted by las and plasma just the same. To work, they need to be tougher, so they can soak some more firepower. A points reduction would be neat, but it's just not always a good tool for creating balance.

[ValourousHeart]

I don't see them much either, but they are certainly worth their points.

 

I fought against one a couple of months ago, it was an Ultramarines list that had a couple of dreads and a Techmarine on a bike, plus a decent firebase and a TDA unit deep striking.

It was a pain the butt to deal with the land raider because the Techmarine kept repairing it.

I think the Techmarine repaired about 12 wounds during the game.

 

Hmmm... that anecdote might be more of an endorsement for the value of the Techmarine.

[sneakybamsen]

I don't see them much either, but they are certainly worth their points.

 

I fought against one a couple of months ago, it was an Ultramarines list that had a couple of dreads and a Techmarine on a bike, plus a decent firebase and a TDA unit deep striking.

It was a pain the butt to deal with the land raider because the Techmarine kept repairing it.

I think the Techmarine repaired about 12 wounds during the game.

 

Hmmm... that anecdote might be more of an endorsement for the value of the Techmarine.

 

Most certainly your opponent had a blast with that techmarine. 12 wounds (with average rolling) is 6 turns of him staying within an inch of that land raider without either of them dying. 12 wounds is also 75% of a land raiders total, which is far above what anyone could expect. But to achieve that, he had to stick the tech marine with that tank, not allowing him to repair anything else. It's all eggs in one basket.

 

Did you have appropriate AT firepower, or was the game skewed in the land raiders (and techmarines) favour from the start?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

With Land Raiders is all or nothing. Bring 2 or more or don't bother. The list will have to be built around them. That means that you need to deal with anti tank before anything else.

But just play with them and have fun. You may end up doing 2 or 3 disappointing games with them but then the one game that they will be awesome will come and makes up for it.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I agree with Lucifer; I have run three on occasion, two Crusaders and one Godhammer, and I’ve been very aggressive with them seldom losing more than one.

En masse they deliver Deathwing well or provide on table distractions for deep strikers.

[sneakybamsen]

3 raiders in a 2K game just seems rough to me. I own 3 raiders, 2 assembled and the redeemer still in the box, so I could try it, but it's not gonna be anytime soon.

 

I mean 3 land raiders (even crusaders) will be in the 1K ballpark, that's half your army. Then you could have 1 big squad of terminators deepstriking with Belial and one other unit, and stick a unit of knights in one of the land raiders. I just find it hard to get the CP's needed for it to work, or am I wrong here? :)

[oldmanlee]

I use two crusaders in my casual deathwing list and to tell you the truth they just don't seem worth the points is a shame as I think there a great model

[march10k]

I've run mechanized Deathwing for years.  It works as well in 8th as it did in earlier editions.  Compared with previous editions, I would say that, when you field three land raiders, they're actually tougher.  They used to be vulnerable to getting one-shotted, and then there was that horrible hull points edition where they were only marginally tougher than a rhino.  Now, though, they take some serious effort to grind down. 

 

I agree with Luci that you shouldn't take just one.  Most armies can kill one land raider with relative ease, sometimes even on turn one.  But three of them is another matter entirely.  I've usually been able to destroy my opponent's tank-killing capability before he can do real damage to the second land raider.  Once the lascannons, meltaguns, or massed plasma (incidental plasma, like in a tactical squad, isn't a threat) is dealt with, they're nigh-unkillable dakka machines (I only run crusaders) that provide the mobility that the Deathwing lacks.  In fact, I'll often initially deepstrike the terminators and have the crusaders meet them on turn three or so to ferry them to the secondary target. 

 

It is painful that they cost about a third more than before, cutting into my model count, but I can't say the points hike is unjustified.  The increased survivability of a trio of crusaders (again, never take just one, and two is barely workable) is offset by the lower number of terminators so the list is about the same level of effectiveness as before. 

 

It's a very fun,  high-risk, high reward army, with 70% or higher casualties on both sides in most games. With just 6 drops, it tends to go first a lot, and with six hurribolters, six assault cannons, and ten DWAing stormbolters, that's devastating.  Or should I say dakkastating?  I miss that banner...

[Endgame]

I also concur with the 3 or none take on land raiders. I've been putzing with a list of 20 terminators 2 god hammers and 1 crusader at 2000 points. The god hammers can usually clear out the more durable things that can threaten a land raider, leaving the crusader and the terminators to handle the chaff.

[Angel of Solitude]

I'm still relatively new to playing Dark Angels, but I currently have one land raider to my name. I used it this last weekend, and the main reason for it is because I found it a more reliable delivery vehicle for my close combat Deathwing as opposed to deep strike.

 

Case in point: I also ran a squad of Deathwing Knights which deepstruck and failed their charge, even after re-roll. With no ranged weapons, they were easily stranded.

 

The CC Deathwing, on the other hand, deployed from their land raider, immediately charged, and went on a rampage. The Land Raider itself also did some serious damage to a Valkyrie and laid waste to a few squads that would have scored some objective points.

 

I guess the summary here is: Land Raiders, despite the costs, are a far more reliable way to get DW into combat, especially given the new FAQ rules. 

[march10k]

 

I guess the summary here is: Land Raiders, despite the costs, are a far more reliable way to get DW into combat, especially given the new FAQ rules. 

 

I'm very much a fan of delivering Deathwing Knights via crusader.  But there's something (quite a lot, actually) to be said for the 80 bolter shots resulting from a proper DWA, especially if you have Belial along, and, with Belial in the mix, powerfists aren't that awful in melee.  After that, you're going to want transportation for the terminators, probably in the form of a pair of empty crusaders (theoretically, a storm eagle also works) that arrive in the drop zone on turn 2 or 3 in case you need to relocate the termies long distance to a new target.  It works great, except in the very rare case that you lose precisely 1 terminator.  At that point, you can no longer spend a CP to combat squad them, but the unit of 9 is too big for a crusader.  So my current thinking is three crusaders, ten tactical terminators with no upgrades, Belial, and as many knights as you have points for (should be about 7?). 

[sneakybamsen]

I get the idea of bringing several land raider crusaders to make up for one dying early game. I also get the insane amount of bolterfire they deliver, but even three of those is 924 points without upgrades. If you add 10 deathwing terminators, and keep them barebones, they're still 392 points, but you don't have any antitank besides melee. Belial won't change that, especially not if you let the rest of the list be knights. And you have 1 CP left after DWA. I'd strongly consider going with at least 1 godhammer you can try to protect for some other shooting than bolter fire (and 3 twin assault cannons). And unless you have counted in the stormraven (which of course could help with AT), I think you'd have points for more than 7 deathwing knights. 924 + 392 + 150 = 1466. That's 10 knights, if you want to, and you'd still have 34 points spare. All that said, I'd add two cyclone launchers to the terminator squad to make the most of those 3 burned command points, at the expense of 2 deathwing knights. Perhaps shave 3 additional knights, make 1 raider godhammer, and add a terminator librarian for just some protection against smites. I would prefer though to build a list containing 3 scout squads for the command points from a battalion. It's just got so many more options.

[march10k]

I would prefer though to build a list containing 3 scout squads for the command points from a battalion. It's just got so many more options.

This is an excellent idea, especially now that it's 5 points, not 3. except that I also have to take a second HQ...so maybe not.  The list doesn't rely on command points, I had planned 3 for DWA, 1 for combat squad, and if I can't combat squad, had no plan other than a random command reroll. So maybe 8 knights and a hellfire dread? ...with Belial, fists are decent antitank, as are the knights...I might think about CMLs...it does help make the DWA pay, and if it takes me down a knight, it's probably well worth it. Clearly, I have more thinking to do.

[sneakybamsen]

I'll agree that points are tight for fitting in 3 scout squads, when the list is supposed to have 3 land raiders. I just feel that they are so badly needed, as 1 CP remaining when you've used DWA on turn two is way too little. You need armour save rerolls to keep the guys alive long enough, you need rerolls on those 3's to wound that you fail with whatever unit you have shooting at something big (venerable dread with twin las and missile launcher for instance). I think I'd surrender a land raider to be honest. Bring Belial with 10 tactical terminators (with 2 cyclones) and a librarian in TDA, 3 scout squads, 2 land raiders, 7-8 knights and a venerable dreadnought with las and missile launcher. By bringing a second HQ you're not forced to take that warlord trait belial gets (which might be fluffy but not really great for terminators), and you can add a relic (eye of the unseen or shroud for instance). Also you'll be at 5CP after DWA rather than 1. I know you say 2 is limiting with land raiders, 3 is better, but you give up on so much else.

 

Regards

[Hantheman]

Also can spent a CP on making a land raider Deathwing and reroll all misses when near Belial.

 

I’m going to try a list with a Land Radier, a Land raider Crusader and a Repulsor.

 

One DW Knight squad, one Termie squad and an aggressor squad backed up with some scouts and Libby and Belial. Mechanised infantry here we go.

[Berzul]

 

Hmmm... that anecdote might be more of an endorsement for the value of the Techmarine.

 

Gotta love them Techmarines... the unsung heroes of the Chapter.

 

Once had mine bring back a Ven Dread from 1 wound to full health twice in a single game. The rage and frustration of my opponent was simply... delicious.