Unit performance, list critique. Batrep Recap.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Ended up playing two games this weekend against my buddy's Necrons (and his first time using the new book)

 

1999 Points, 10CP (-1CP for an extra Relic)

 

RG Battalion

 

LT - Chainsword, Storm Bolter

LT - Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe

 

Scouts - 5 Bolters

Scouts - 5 Bolters

Intercessors - 5 Bolt Rifles

 

Hellblasters - 10 Plasma incinerator

 

RG Vanguard

 

Shrike

 

Aggressors - 6 Boltstorm/Grenade variety

Dreadnought - 2x Twin Autocannon

Dreadnought - 2x Twin Autocannon

Dreadnought - 2x Twin Autocannon

 

Adeptus Custodes Supreme Command Detachment

 

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike - Salvo Launcher, Misericordia, Auric Aquilis, - WARLORD

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike - Salvo Launcher, Misericordia, Eagle's Eye

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike - Salvo Launcher, Misericordia

 

Changed the 2 5-man Hellblaster units into 1 10-man for the sake of saving a CP to SFTS

 

My opponents list:

 

Necron Battalion

 

Destroyer Lord

Cryptek - Flying cloak upgrade

 

Immortals - 5 Tesla 

Immortals - 5 Tesla 

Immortals - 6 Tesla 

 

Destroyers - 6 Gauss Cannons

Destroyers - 6 Gauss Cannons

 

C'tan Shard - the 3 units within 18" take D3 mortal wounds power

 

Outrider Detachment

 

Cryptek - Flying cloak upgrade

 

Tomb Blades - 5 Twin Gauss Blasters, +1 Sv, 5+ Invul

Tomb Blades - 5 Twin Gauss Blasters, +1 Sv, 5+ Invul

Tomb Blades - 5 Twin Gauss Blasters, +1 Sv, 5+ Invul

 

So, I won both games, with the first game when I had first turn, and the second game my opponent had first turn.

 

Both of these armies delivered punishing alpha strikes, but I would say, on the whole, his army had higher mobility, while my felt more durable.

 

Some thoughts on units and their respective performance:

 

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike - This guy is an absolute UNIT. He is decently killy, but more importantly, he is hard as nails. Multiple times across both games these guys would take withering amounts of fire, and just keep on coming. Along with also being Objective Secured, they caused real nightmares for my opponent. Across 2 games and 3 Captains used in each game, I only lost one model, and that was turn a dedicated first turn alpha strike on the weakest unit of the 3 (the 4+ Invul one). Nearly every Marine unit that is comparable will charge, kill some or all the stuff, then die to your opponents return fire in their shooting phase. These guys take that lickin' and keep on tickin'. 

 

In my match up I had on Saturday, I feel I was even against an opponent that had a list that countered them quite well, in that all his units I would charge had fly, so he could fall back and then proceed to shoot right into me every time. 

 

Dreadnaught firebase with Lieutenant - These performed as expected. In both of my games my opponent couldn't really afford to shoot at them because he had more pressing concerns. 32 Autocannon shots rerolling 1s to hit (with Stratagem) and 1s to wound was quite effective at putting out the hurt. That being said, since I went with the non-Venerable version, I was hesitant to move them for fear of the -1 to hit penalty. 3 Dreads, 2 games, I only lost one model. I am considering dropping Shrike and giving these guys a Captain babysitter that is super-cheap.

 

Aggressors - The more I play with these the less impressed I become. They never survive until turn 2, and they rarely ever kill more points than they cost for the one round of full shooting they sometimes get. That would be fine if they were durable and took a beating, but they really don't, and die quite easy. 3+, 2W, and T5 really isn't that significant. I am unsure if I would have had more success with 2 3-Man units instead.

 

Hellblasters - These guys were great, and worth every point. On paper, I made the assumption that -4 AP would be overkill/wasted, but I was very much wrong on that. Between 3+ saves and cover being present, that extra point of AP (versus regular plasma) was quite handy.

 

Intercessors - I love these. They did well. So well that I am conflicted going forward how best to proceed with my troops units. It was a refreshing change to have troops that actually felt threatening for a change (without investing a ton of points).

 

Honorable Mention: JP LT with PP and PA - Cheap, flexible, and did a great job of putting a little extra damage where I needed it. That being said, his performance may have been amplified due to playing against Necrons, and that extra damage to dispatch units in full felt very important when up against the wall regarding reanimation. 

 

Parting thoughts:

 

I never want to run Raven Guard dedicated assault units again after watching my Shield Captains perform in these games.

If I do run mono-Raven Guard, I am inclined to only run shooting units (maybe dedicate one Captain to CQC).

More Dreadnoughts. 

[Claws and Effect]

I still love me some dual claw Vanguard led by Shrike. If I get first turn they absolutely murder Infantry.

[seriade]

I would just loose the misiacordias on the captains there really is not a point.  The aggressors seem to possibly be an issue of deployment or support but if they are completely drawing a metric ton of fire that is also good.  Also you had 1 point take the gl on the intersessors lol

[jpwyrm]

Good breakdown of units performance, thanks!

 

I'm warming up more and more to dreadnoughts myself. Would combining twinlas with the autocanons still work? In fact, you don't have any ranged weapon with strength 8+ and/or that deals multiple dmg. (Potentially lethal hellblasters notwithstanding) how do you you think this will affect you against lists with a high number of units with high toughness and wounds?

 

I don't think Aggressors should be seeking combat as much as you do. They are bullets hoses. Unless you have a very specific target in mind (big scary unit you definitely don't want in your line) I think you would be better off deploying them in a central position and take advantage of Fire Storm as much as possible. If melee is what you seek, I'd say make sure there's a support character nearby to help get those power fist attacks get through.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I still love me some dual claw Vanguard led by Shrike. If I get first turn they absolutely murder Infantry.

 

I do too. My issue with VV is every game the same thing happens. You charge, you murder (or nearly murder) what you charge. Then your opponent opens up in their shooting phase (or falls back first), and blows you off the board. The Golden Boys on Bikes fulfill a similar role but can take a beating.

 

Also, playing this way, I cannot count how often Shrike gives up Slay the Warlord. Further tick marks in the column of "reasons to run a barebones captain, or make your LT the Warlord"

 

 

I would just loose the misiacordias on the captains there really is not a point.  The aggressors seem to possibly be an issue of deployment or support but if they are completely drawing a metric ton of fire that is also good.  Also you had 1 point take the gl on the intersessors lol

 

I agree about the daggers, I think I did maybe one wound with them over the course of my game.

 

This is the first time my Aggressors have ever seen combat! Given the nature of the "post deployment, pre-game redeployment" of the C'tan, the ended up being isolated. The moment I made the choice to abandon them, I knew they would die to 40 Str 4, -3AP shots in my opponents turn. This is why I made the choice to charge them in. I think the strategy would have worked if I had rolled an average value.

 

Good call on the Aux Grenade Launcher!

 

 

Good breakdown of units performance, thanks!

 

I'm warming up more and more to dreadnoughts myself. Would combining twinlas with the autocanons still work? In fact, you don't have any ranged weapon with strength 8+ and/or that deals multiple dmg. (Potentially lethal hellblasters notwithstanding) how do you you think this will affect you against lists with a high number of units with high toughness and wounds?

 

I don't think Aggressors should be seeking combat as much as you do. They are bullets hoses. Unless you have a very specific target in mind (big scary unit you definitely don't want in your line) I think you would be better off deploying them in a central position and take advantage of Fire Storm as much as possible. If melee is what you seek, I'd say make sure there's a support character nearby to help get those power fist attacks get through.

 

In regards to the anti-tank weakness, and a shortage of Str 8+, I get what you are saying, and I considered it quite a bit. A few of my early iterations of this list had Devastators with Lascannons as well. My list would definitely have a huge issue with Land Raiders (as an example). At present, I have access to:

 

3 Melta Missles

24 Autocannon shots

10 (20 RF) Overcharged Plasma

 

My issue with Devastators is in a list like this, the are clearly one of the weaker targets, and I would imagine any opponent with a brain will just blow them off the board on T1. I definitely want to explore getting more AT in Dread chassis form.

 

In regards to the Aggressors, I couldn't agree more. I wish I had more opponents to play against in my local scene, because I feel like playing against the same person, he shoots them off the board in his first turn, every game. This in turn is bringing me to conclusions about them being less effective, which may not actually be the case. Its also what led to the charging: "Well, they performed horribly, and now will die to my opponent's shooting, I just as well better charge them in". At the time I figured one round of shooting and the 13 Power Fist Attacks should do more wounds (on paper) than two rounds of shooting (when the target is T5, 2W, and a 3+/5+, and -1 to Hit from Shooting).

[Claws and Effect]

I actually have an experimental list worked out in Battlescribe that features a Stormraven, Fire Raptor, and Corvus Blackstar in an Air Wing.

 

It piqued my interest when I realized that including the Blackstar doesn't kill my Chapter Tactics because flyers don't get them anyway. And they all have the Adeptus Astartes keyword so it's a legal detachment post-FAQ.

[jpwyrm]

Colour me interested. Appart from shelling out a metric ton of lead, what's your idea with this list?

[Claws and Effect]

Colour me interested. Appart from shelling out a metric ton of lead, what's your idea with this list?

To give my opponent fits trying to decide what to shoot at.

 

I managed to get a decent amount of boots on the ground as well, which was a feat seeing as the 3 flyers alone are close to half my points.

 

I'll start a new thread with the list so I don't hijack Vyper's any further.

[jpwyrm]

@Itvyper : I totally get what you mean about devastators being singled out fast. I'm usually saving them thanks to Lias' Ambush ability, but still they only get about a turn or two of shooting before being blown to bits.

 

The number of Autocanon shots in your list is impressive I must say, maybe I could give it a try. My thoughts were that against AM tank lot for example, you might struggle to make a dent. Then again, we all have to adapt to our meta.

[seriade]

i think there are 2 ways to go if your aggressors are always gettting stomped would be to downgrade them to sturnguard and buff the scouts with the rest of the points.  A second choice would be to drop them for 3 scout bike squads.

[HighMarshalAmp]

Umm... don't the matched play rules prevent you from combining Custodes and Astartes these days?

[Dracos]

No, soups are still possible. The benefits via Traits, Tactics and CP are more under control now, but you can still legally create Soups that are similar to before.

 

 

Edit : to help clarify :) You can have both Marines and Custodes in the same Army, but they will need to be in seperate Detachments. Before now you could put them under the same Detachment with the Keyword of Imperium. Now you will have to use more specific Keywords. In this case Adeptus Custodes and Adeptus Astartes (?). 

 

To further "complicate" matters if you wanted to mix Space Wolves and Dark Angels into the same Army you would need to use two separate Detachments to get the benefits of each Chapter. 

 

If I'm in error on anything, someone please step in and clear up anything I may have miss spoke on.

[taikishi]

Mostly true. Right now the Space Wolves index rules, unless I missed something, works regardless of being in a solitary detachment. You just can't take their CA relic and CA warlord trait or use their CA stratagems without a Space Wolves detachment. You'd also be required to take a SW Warlord in a SW detachment to get the relic.

 

Dark Angels, otoh, would be unable to use Grim Resolve in a mixed detachment, but can take their relics, WL traits and Interromancy as long as there's at least one DA Detachment in the army and also gain their stratagems so long as said detachment isn't isn't Auxiliary Support.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

where is written that i can't use stratagems when it's auxiliary?

[taikishi]

Clarifying because I think you might have misunderstood what I said. I didn't say the Auxiliary detachment can't use the stratagems, I said if you bring just a Dark Angels Auxiliary Support detachment you don't even get access to their stratagems. You'd have to bring at least one non-Auxiliry Support detachment to get access to the stratagems. The intent of the rule is to keep you from bringing, say, a Raven Guard Scout Squad to gain access to both Space Marine and Raven Guard stratagems.

 

As for where I got this?

 

Imperial Guard dex, p. 134

"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any ASTRA MILITARUM Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you have access to the Stratagems shown below,"

 

Death Guard dex, p. 98

"If your army is Battle-forged and includes any DEATH GUARD Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you have access to the Stratagems shown below,"

 

Custodes dex, p. 73

 

Chaos Daemons, p. 126

 

Dark Angels, p. 135

 

Necrons, p. 110

 

Thousand Sons, p. 96

 

Drukhari, p. 118

 

CSM, p. 158

 

Blood Angels, p. 135

 

T'au, p. 128

 

Chapter Approved, pp. 89-98

 

Don't have access to SM, Craftworlds, Grey Knights, Ad Mech or Tyranids but I won't be surprised to see that phrase at the top of the first page of each of their Stratagem sections as well.

[Race Bannon]

One more post reinforcing the "need" for Chapter Approved

[Aegir_Einarsson]

Ok. Right. Thanks:):)

[smbarne]

Great post as always Itvyper.  Glad to hear you're doing well and back at it again!  A few thoughts from some of my limited experiences:

 

 - Aggressors are very interesting, *especially* dependent on your table and your foe.

    + If your table has nice cover, then T5, 2+, 2W, -1 to hit becomes quite interesting for some armies.  Necron destroyers and many armies with high ROF, 2 damage, high AP weapons don't even blink though.

    + Against screens, T3/T4 and medium save enemies... Aggressors **melt** them with appropriate rerolls.  However as soon as it's power armor in cover ( 2+ ), or T5 or higher even the weight of dice can't do a lot.  For example, 6 Aggressors shooting twice with a chapter master and Lt nearby only took out a few Wraiths the other day.  But they cleared firewarriors and breachers just by blinking at them.

 

 - I feel like I may need to try Dreads again.  They seem so good on paper, but when they're the only T7+ item on my board I feel like they just get shot with the enemy's anti-armor weaponry and blow up easily.

 

 - I've been on the fence about buyings some Custodes bikes and coverting them up to be Primaris themed.  Time to pull the trigger...

 

 - Pre-FAQ I was a huge fan of Plasma Inceptors.  post FAQ, we'll see.  But they're similar to Hellblasters except with more mobility.

 

 - I don't know about you, but I feel like every army I face has it's entire army covered in invul saves.  Tau?  Shields on the big suits.  Necrons? 3++ for days.  Dark Eldar?  Invuls plus Feel No Pain!  I'm seriously questioning the value of AP on many of my weapons and wondering if tons of dakka Inceptors and Redemptors with HOGs would make sense.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Great post as always Itvyper.  Glad to hear you're doing well and back at it again!  A few thoughts from some of my limited experiences:

 

 - Aggressors are very interesting, *especially* dependent on your table and your foe.

    + If your table has nice cover, then T5, 2+, 2W, -1 to hit becomes quite interesting for some armies.  Necron destroyers and many armies with high ROF, 2 damage, high AP weapons don't even blink though.

    + Against screens, T3/T4 and medium save enemies... Aggressors **melt** them with appropriate rerolls.  However as soon as it's power armor in cover ( 2+ ), or T5 or higher even the weight of dice can't do a lot.  For example, 6 Aggressors shooting twice with a chapter master and Lt nearby only took out a few Wraiths the other day.  But they cleared firewarriors and breachers just by blinking at them.

 

 - I feel like I may need to try Dreads again.  They seem so good on paper, but when they're the only T7+ item on my board I feel like they just get shot with the enemy's anti-armor weaponry and blow up easily.

 

 - I've been on the fence about buyings some Custodes bikes and coverting them up to be Primaris themed.  Time to pull the trigger...

 

 - Pre-FAQ I was a huge fan of Plasma Inceptors.  post FAQ, we'll see.  But they're similar to Hellblasters except with more mobility.

 

 - I don't know about you, but I feel like every army I face has it's entire army covered in invul saves.  Tau?  Shields on the big suits.  Necrons? 3++ for days.  Dark Eldar?  Invuls plus Feel No Pain!  I'm seriously questioning the value of AP on many of my weapons and wondering if tons of dakka Inceptors and Redemptors with HOGs would make sense.

 

Bolded your key point for emphasis.

 

I would agree. This is why I was drawn to the Autocannon dreads, simply because against a lot of targets you want to use them, they have an invul save anyway, so the extra AP would be wasted. That being said, if they had one more strength, that would be swell.

 

I have also considered MANY times adding a Librarian on a Bike as standard kit for my TAC lists for Raven Guard simply for one reason alone: Null Field.

 

I'm with you on Inceptors of both varieties. They are a weird footprint base/size/stand wise, so I didn't have a suitable proxy, which means I haven't playtested them yet. That being said, there are 6 on my workbench (3 of each variety), and they are next in the que after I finish building my Custodes (I think).

 

I don't own a Repemptor and haven't proxied one yet, but I feel like I need to, because it fits my playstyle/flavor quite well.

 

I also feel like my Dread firebase could benefit greatly from a Deredeo parked in the middle making them all a 5+ Invul as well.

[smbarne]

 

Great post as always Itvyper.  Glad to hear you're doing well and back at it again!  A few thoughts from some of my limited experiences:

 

 - Aggressors are very interesting, *especially* dependent on your table and your foe.

    + If your table has nice cover, then T5, 2+, 2W, -1 to hit becomes quite interesting for some armies.  Necron destroyers and many armies with high ROF, 2 damage, high AP weapons don't even blink though.

    + Against screens, T3/T4 and medium save enemies... Aggressors **melt** them with appropriate rerolls.  However as soon as it's power armor in cover ( 2+ ), or T5 or higher even the weight of dice can't do a lot.  For example, 6 Aggressors shooting twice with a chapter master and Lt nearby only took out a few Wraiths the other day.  But they cleared firewarriors and breachers just by blinking at them.

 

 - I feel like I may need to try Dreads again.  They seem so good on paper, but when they're the only T7+ item on my board I feel like they just get shot with the enemy's anti-armor weaponry and blow up easily.

 

 - I've been on the fence about buyings some Custodes bikes and coverting them up to be Primaris themed.  Time to pull the trigger...

 

 - Pre-FAQ I was a huge fan of Plasma Inceptors.  post FAQ, we'll see.  But they're similar to Hellblasters except with more mobility.

 

 - I don't know about you, but I feel like every army I face has it's entire army covered in invul saves.  Tau?  Shields on the big suits.  Necrons? 3++ for days.  Dark Eldar?  Invuls plus Feel No Pain!  I'm seriously questioning the value of AP on many of my weapons and wondering if tons of dakka Inceptors and Redemptors with HOGs would make sense.

 

Bolded your key point for emphasis.

 

I would agree. This is why I was drawn to the Autocannon dreads, simply because against a lot of targets you want to use them, they have an invul save anyway, so the extra AP would be wasted. That being said, if they had one more strength, that would be swell.

 

I have also considered MANY times adding a Librarian on a Bike as standard kit for my TAC lists for Raven Guard simply for one reason alone: Null Field.

 

I'm with you on Inceptors of both varieties. They are a weird footprint base/size/stand wise, so I didn't have a suitable proxy, which means I haven't playtested them yet. That being said, there are 6 on my workbench (3 of each variety), and they are next in the que after I finish building my Custodes (I think).

 

I don't own a Repemptor and haven't proxied one yet, but I feel like I need to, because it fits my playstyle/flavor quite well.

 

I also feel like my Dread firebase could benefit greatly from a Deredeo parked in the middle making them all a 5+ Invul as well.

 

 

A Deredeo or a Leviathan would likely go will into your current list.  Leviathans are quite strong right now, but their range is lacking.

 

Null field is definitely up there for me as well.  The problem is that it's hard to cast **and** the range is so short that the Librarian is extremely likely to die the following turn.  Couple that with Librarians being very pricey with no invul save of their own and I can rarely get away with one in my lists.  It's 24 points for a darn jump pack on one as well!  That said, SftS with a jump pack libby + some hellblaster support could be downright devastating.  If you're regularly playing Necrons with Wraiths it's a must.

 

I played a few 1k games recently that featured 6 plasma Inceptors and 6 Aggressors.  It was interesting, but man do those Plasma Inceptors do work.  Averaging 12 shots for a unit of 3 at Str 8 D2 means they can kill whatever they want.  But then also blow themselves up...  Also, FYI, they're very easy to magnetize :).

[seriade]

deredeo provides infantry an invulnerable save not other dreads.  The key with ap is have enough that they are forced to make use of the invulnerable save but not over committing on it. 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

deredeo provides infantry an invulnerable save not other dreads. The key with ap is have enough that they are forced to make use of the invulnerable save but not over committing on it.

Atomantic Pavise

 

‘If equipped with an atomantic pavaise, all friendly

<Chapter> units that are wholly within 6" of the Relic

Deredeo Dreadnought gain a 5+ invulnerable save.’

 

Pretty sure its everything, no?

[seriade]

oh the faq removed the word infantry.