Are shooty chaos marines a thing?

[durdle-durdle]

So I’ve been playing blood angels for a year now, and more and more i’m Disheartened with close combat. The enemy I play against the most is guard, and I struggle to get through all the meatshields to start hitting things in close combat (provided I can even get near him in the first place.) so I started looking around and wasn’t impressed by generic marines, but chaos seems to have some things they lack. I’ve always been a fan of Slaanesh and noise marines, and with the shoot twice stratagem, the various psychic powers, and even death to the false emperor, chaos (specifically Slaaneshy black legion) has been drawing my eye. Is this a trap or can it be done well? I’m not looking to abscond from combat all together, but I would like to be more competitive in shooting while staying in power armor.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

CSM are an absolutely murderous shooting army.....but there's a catch.

 

You have to be willing to fight at 24in or closer. If you're willing to embrace that, you can bring a lot of pain.

 

Some things that work for this:

 

Noise Marines

Plasma Havocs

Plasma Terminators

Combi-Bolter Chosen

Swarms of Autogun Cultists

Dakka Rhinos (2 Combi-Bolters plus Havoc Launcher)

Helbrutes (Fire Frenzy!)

Obliterators

Combi-Bolter/Plasma Bikers

Rubric Marines

Plague Marines with spammed Blight Launchers

 

There are other, longer-ranged options too, but the above range will be where you put many of your points.

 

Black Legion are solid. Now that deepstriking outside your own deployment zone is disallowed Turn 1, BL might actually find it useful to use their "advance and fire" rule. They also have some other decent stuff and Abaddon is a beast that significantly enhances any shooting list.

[durdle-durdle]

Absolutely fine with fighting In 24”. I like close combat but don’t want to hyperspecialize in it anymore.

 

I really love the dinobots, and the idea of abandon with two big shooty doggo bodyguards (and some troop stuff) sounds so cool to me.

 

As space marines, I’m so jealous of cultists, I’d give my right hand for some cheap filler troops (I like mono-book armies).

 

Would big 20 man squads of marines be effective? Sounds cool giving them reroll a for 1 cp. obviously just bolters, but still.

 

Is advance-shooting really that good? That’s the part that gave me pause for black legion. It doesn’t seem super amazing but situationally useful, I guess.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Absolutely fine with fighting In 24”. I like close combat but don’t want to hyperspecialize in it anymore.

 

I really love the dinobots, and the idea of abandon with two big shooty doggo bodyguards (and some troop stuff) sounds so cool to me.

 

As space marines, I’m so jealous of cultists, I’d give my right hand for some cheap filler troops (I like mono-book armies).

 

Would big 20 man squads of marines be effective? Sounds cool giving them reroll a for 1 cp. obviously just bolters, but still.

 

Is advance-shooting really that good? That’s the part that gave me pause for black legion. It doesn’t seem super amazing but situationally useful, I guess.

Dinobots normally wouldn't be too great, but with Abaddon's rerolls, they can work.

 

BL are one of the few Legions that can get away with fielding ONE big 20 man squad of regular Marines and stacking buffs on it. Bring Psykers to increase durability and mobility both.

 

Advance + shoot isn't really "that good." It appears better after the FAQ, but not really something to build an army on.

[dakkamasta]

I don't want to derail the thread, but as both a Blood Angel and Black Legion player I just wanna say don't give up hope on your BA. Many BA players make the mistake of going all close combat with them but they're not designed like that. They are still marines which means the good shooting units for normal marines are good for you too. I won't go into a lot of detail because this isn't a BA thread but remember that a strong BA list combines shooting and close combat, complimenting each other.

With that said, everyone above has made some very good points about CSM brutal mid-range shooting potential. Abaddon is excellent for buffing your shooters whilst simultaneously keeping your cultists blobs from running, so you have very reliable screens for your shooters. For long range you can't go wrong with havocs (slaanesh for double shooting strat), predators or rapiers if you use FW.

Advance and shooting is rubbish IMO. 1 shot (2 for bikes) at -1 really isn't impressive. In very rare cases it can be useful but I wouldn't rely on it. Black Legion is good because Abaddon is good. I've stopped taking the BL detachment bonus and instead throw in a few units as Alpha Legion to utilise the infiltrate strat. 40 fearless cultists deploying half way up the table is incredible board control.

[Plaguecaster]

If you start looking into some of the FW units there is some really amazing options you can add to really give your army that some pretty decent long range firepower in the form of Deredeos, Raipers laser destroyer vindicators or even Sicarians, I tend to only run DG infantry so always use some of the FW walkers as my long range units with a Deredeo and 2 Contemptors as they give my army that much needed long range firepower but which doesn't take anything away from my army theme as it really helps supports my infantry only force even more

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Something I used this past weekend which came as an unpleasant surprise for my opponents was a dual lascannon Troop Chaos Marine squad. Most people don't realize you can pack two heavy weapons in a 10 man squad, and because they're Troops they held objectives even in the face of deep strikers and FLY units.

[Panzer]

The advantage of shooty Chaos Marine lists over shooty loyalist Marine lists is that they're very variable and can shift their focus from anti-horde to anti-elite to anti-tank dakka on the fly via double shooting stratagem and +1 to wound stratagem and +1 to hit psi power.

 

Loyalists have very strong anti-horde dakka as well by taking Aggressors for example (they're actually stronger than double shooting Noise Marines when stationary and stronger than non double shooting Noise Marines when on the move ... especially with the Raven Guard infiltration stratagem) or Bolter Inceptors or AssBacks.

Or strong anti-elite dakka with Hellblaster or Plasma Inceptors.

Or strong anti-tank with Lascannon Devastators or LasBacks/LasPreds (basically not very different than CSM here) or Stormravens.

 

However CSM can when they see they need to focus on getting rid that one tough target their CP and Psi on their Lascannon Havocs for double shots hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ or if they see they need to remove that huge amount of Gaunts give their Noise Marines all the support for double shots hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ or if there are a bunch of terminators they can overcharge a plasma unit and pour all their support into that to avoid gets hot and simply obliterate them by hitting on 2+ and wounding on 2+ (even Death Guard units if you use VotLW).

Loyalists don't really have anything to support their shooty units like that. Sure they can do some of those things better in general but if CSM player really want something gone they can do it a lot better ... just not everything at once so pick your targets wisely. ;)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

On the point of stacking psychic powers and strategems, here's a real world example from my tourney this past weekend: Chaos Lord, Slaanesh Sorcerer, Slaanesh Havocs with four heavy bolters. Under Prescience, Veterans of the Long War, Endless Cacophony, and the Lord's reroll aura, that's 24 shots at S5 AP-1 hitting on 2+ that rerolls misses and wounds Space Marines on a 2+. This set up deleted two squads of Iron Warriors, most of a Wolf Guard Terminator squad, and two small squads of Plague Marines across my three games.

[Bulwyf]

Don't give up on melee lists. You need some shooting in  your own list to draw fire away from your melee units.

 

But as for shooting, yes, you can shoot well with CSM. Noise Marines are a blast to play, no pun intended.

[durdle-durdle]

So if I wanted to play with lots of noise marines, would emperors children necessarily be the best legion trait? Seems kind of meh for what seems like should be a shooting unit, though their strat seems amazing, even if they’re not super choppy like world eaters. Are they more of a unit good in both phases?

 

Slaanesh definitely seems to have the most fun looking toys to me. (Phrasing?)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Noise marines with sonic blasters and blast masters are incredibly shooty - and the fact that they get one shot in before they die just makes your opponent feel bad against them.  Combined with Endless Cacaphony to shoot twice, they are one of the most devastating troop units in the game in the shooting phase.

 

Now, the legion trait isn't that wonderful with a shooting unit, but it does act as a disincentive to the opponent charging you - if they charge with more than 1 unit, they know that some of your guys will get to fight before some of their guys.  So, while they aren't super powerful in the assault phase like berzerkers, they do usually do get the chance to fight before some of your enemies on their turn, and always fight first if the combat lasts into your turn.

 

So, sure, the legion trait doesn't increase their shooting (though strategems certainly do), it does make your opponent more careful about what he charges, given that if he charges multiple units with small or fairly fragile units, between overwatch and going first in many combats the opponent may well not come out ahead in that exchange.

 

My thoughts are that:

    1) noise marines are easily the  one of the shootiest units in our codex;

    2)  if you want a shooty army, you want to have the shootiest troop units (which means you need to go emperor's children to get noise marines as troops);

    3) anything else is gravy; and

    4) while the legion trait doesn't directly benefit your shooting, it encourages the enemy to stay out of melee, which indirectly benefits your shooting.

[durdle-durdle]

So with thousand sons and death guard recently getting new models, is there any likelihood that emperors children will be getting a model update (since they don’t even have actual noise marine kits)?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

We are all hoping - if so, its likely when/if emperor's children get their own codex.  Should such happen, there would likely be other new models as well - our own demon prince primarch, for example.

 

You can still make noise marine, you just need to combine a chaos marine kit with sonic blasters & blastmasters obtained through the online store - which is basically what the noise marine kit was when it was available.

[Gederas]

So if I wanted to play with lots of noise marines, would emperors children necessarily be the best legion trait? Seems kind of meh for what seems like should be a shooting unit, though their strat seems amazing, even if they’re not super choppy like world eaters. Are they more of a unit good in both phases?

 

Slaanesh definitely seems to have the most fun looking toys to me. (Phrasing?)

Emperor's Children give you Noise Marines are troops. So yes, it's quite good.

 

As to their Legion trait: It's nothing to sneeze at. Noise Marines are a primarily ranged unit, but always going first in melee is really good. So it keeps them from getting too messed up in melee.

[Panzer]

The Emperor's Children Legion trait is pretty bad. It only works if your opponent charged with two or more units or if it's round 2+ of an ongoing melee and even when it applies then it's only realy useful if you have multiple nelee units involved (Daemon Prince, Possessed, Chosen with Power weapons, Terminators etc.).

The Stratagem isn't that great either for a shooting army but is awesome for choppy infantry.

 

The real reason to take EC crunch-wise is to be able to take Noise Marines as troops so you have more room for other Elite units without taking an Outrider Detachment. It also helps you to fill a Battalion without relying on mass Cultists or regular Chaos Marines.

 

Overall I'd say Alpha Legion is the stronger Legion tho. Black Legion thanks to Abaddon as well.

[Bulwyf]

So with thousand sons and death guard recently getting new models, is there any likelihood that emperors children will be getting a model update (since they don’t even have actual noise marine kits)?

 

I was told months back by a reliable source that Emperor's Children and World Eaters would be getting their own codexes with model support like Death Guard at some point. Still waiting for the EC release. The Legion rule heavily helps assault lists. We just need 40k versions of Palatine Blades plus Fulgrim, new models, etc to take advantage of it.

The Emperor's Children Legion trait is pretty bad. It only works if your opponent charged with two or more units or if it's round 2+ of an ongoing melee and even when it applies then it's only realy useful if you have multiple nelee units involved (Daemon Prince, Possessed, Chosen with Power weapons, Terminators etc.).

The Stratagem isn't that great either for a shooting army but is awesome for choppy infantry.

 

The real reason to take EC crunch-wise is to be able to take Noise Marines as troops so you have more room for other Elite units without taking an Outrider Detachment. It also helps you to fill a Battalion without relying on mass Cultists or regular Chaos Marines.

 

Overall I'd say Alpha Legion is the stronger Legion tho. Black Legion thanks to Abaddon as well.

 

I disagree that it is bad. It just needs you to have assault units in your army. My fun and fluffy EC 2k list does very well for itself. Lucius, DP and Possessed/Chosen can just brutalize anything on the table since they always fight first.

[Mekhitar]

3 squads of EC noise marines are a good source of a second chaos battalion (for those lovely cps, since shooting twice and veterans munches 3 a turn...); the legion trait is not bad in your daemon prince, since it prevents the enemy from piling multiple units / hqs / dreads into it and killing it before it can swing. It only needs to live through 1 set of attacks to get in some return damage, which I like.

[Panzer]

 

The Emperor's Children Legion trait is pretty bad. It only works if your opponent charged with two or more units or if it's round 2+ of an ongoing melee and even when it applies then it's only realy useful if you have multiple nelee units involved (Daemon Prince, Possessed, Chosen with Power weapons, Terminators etc.).

The Stratagem isn't that great either for a shooting army but is awesome for choppy infantry.

 

The real reason to take EC crunch-wise is to be able to take Noise Marines as troops so you have more room for other Elite units without taking an Outrider Detachment. It also helps you to fill a Battalion without relying on mass Cultists or regular Chaos Marines.

 

Overall I'd say Alpha Legion is the stronger Legion tho. Black Legion thanks to Abaddon as well.

 

I disagree that it is bad. It just needs you to have assault units in your army. My fun and fluffy EC 2k list does very well for itself. Lucius, DP and Possessed/Chosen can just brutalize anything on the table since they always fight first.

 

 

The thing is that if you charge you already fight first anyway, if the opponent charges it only matters if he charges with two or more units since he gets to chose one of the first fighting units before you to act and there are many lists who rely on one big unit for melee rather than multiple small ones. Or as said if you happen to be in round two of a melee but that doesn't happen too often either since people obviously prefer falling back and shooting your melee unit with another unit instead of staying there to get their heads bashed in.

[Aothaine]

If you want a dakka list go with something like this:

 

Legion: Black Legion

 

Battalion 

 

[HQ] Abaddon

[HQ] Nurgle Sorc

 

[E] Noise Marines (20-man) - Slaanesh -  Blasmaster x2, Sonicblaster x17, Doom Siren

[E] Noise Marines (20-man) - Slaanesh -  Blasmaster x2, Sonicblaster x17, Doom Siren

 

[T] CSM (20-man) - Slaanesh - Lascannon x2, Bolters x17, (Power fist possible?)

[T] CSM (20-man) - Slaanesh - Lascannon x2, Bolters x17, (Power fist possible?)

[T] CSM (20-man) - Slaanesh - Lascannon x2, Bolters x17, (Power fist possible?)

 

[HS] Hellforged Leviathan Dreadnought - Butcher Cannon Array & Siege Drill and Meltagun Two hellflamers - Mark of Nurgle (for the Nugle -1 to hit psi power)

[HS] Oblits (3-man)

[HS] Oblits (3-man)

 

Not sure about points here but that should be able to fit into 2k

 

Chaos Decimators with Soulburner Petard x2 are something you should look into as well. It is a Daemon. ^_^ you can use the reroll strat with one of them and their an elite choice. Might be able to squeeze one in the list. But I don't know..

[Commander Dawnstar]

Not sure about points here but that should be able to fit into 2k

 

Actually it's just short of 2,850 points ...

[Aothaine]

 

Actually it's just short of 2,850 points ...

 

 

Lol! Goodness. Thank you for checking that. I was way off! I have not build a Chaos list in a few months.