Dev. Of Baal - very quick lore question!

[Karhedron]

Question though... did Guilliman give anyone else in the entire Imperium the right to stand by him as an equal? Did he order any other chapters to safeguard an entire region of space? I have not read the Dark Imperium book yet and was thinking of picking it up after work tomorrow.

No, Dante is currently the only deputy to Guilliman's sheriff. Various individuals have been given tasks to perform such as Cawl studying and replicating the Necron Pylons but Dante's position appears to be unique.

[Karhedron]

Thats pretty much how i've always seen it, although slightly differently. I've always thought that the marines who have the worst/strongest pull to become DC have organs that have come from teh material re-cultured from Sanguinius's dead body, while those who are 'lucky' got to have organs cultured from marines who were alive/made before he died. It seems reasonable to me that the imprint of his death would be strongest in bits that 'did die', rather than organs that felt that death second-hand. But obviously, there is a finite amount of those pre-death genelines and if they are lost without harvesting then they are irreplaceable, while there are more genelines tracing back to the material taken from his dead body. Thats one thing people do seem to forget about the Blood Angels line as a whole - they are the ONLY ones who's implants had to be taken from the DEAD body of their primarch.

Is that fluff still valid? I though the bit about cultivating new geneseed from Sanguinius' body after he died dates back to the old Epic/Space Marine fluff. I don't recall seeing it repeated anywhere but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

If it was as simple as that though, surely the Blood Angels could have eliminated the flaw over time by weeding out the contaminated geneseed. Don't use geneseed from anyone who gets inducted into the DC and (wherever possible) prioritise the use of geneseed from the oldest veterans. That assumes that the BAs do not have sufficiently detailed records to identify the lineage of progenoid glands. If they can trace back particular lines of geneseed to the aftermath of the Heresy then it should be easy to identify those Marine who have pre-Siege geneseed and those who were cultured from Sangy post-mortem.

[Majkhel]

From the current Codex:

"...each (aspirant) is placed within a mighty sarcophagus. Life-support nodes are attached to them and for the next year they are fed intravenously with a mixture of nutrients and the blood of Sanguinius while the gene-seed does it's work."

 

So the problem might be that they get the material from the dead Primarch directly. Although the material is getting diluted through the centuries. But this in turn apparently does not affect the number of DR manifestations.

This might support the theory that Primaris can be more resistant/immune to DR as Sanguinius blood is not necessary in their creation.

[Panzer]

Currently there's not much to predict anything for Primaris and the Black Rage. If GW wants to sell Primaris Deathcompany they can write something to enable it just as easily as they could write something to exclude them from it.

Just keep in mind that it's still 40k and there was never a cure without drawback for anything and even the Red Thirst manifested in Primaris eventually once they rejoined with the rest of the BA and Successors.

[Leonaides]

Karhedron - as far as i known its still valid. Pretty sure it was in the last couple of codexs even if its not in this one. It was in 2nd ed codex too. I wonder if they didtn realise it til it was too late and now there just arent enough geneseed strains that werent taken from hes dead body to do that with any realistic chance of keeping the chapter functioning. If they could have the time off/out of combat for 50 years or so then maybe but when would that happen :-)

[Aothaine]

Sorry about the derail. Also, thank you for the answers everyone!

[dread05]

I understand the black rage as a psychic disease, it doesnt have to do anything with the gene seed strains per se. Regular marines are prone to it, Primaris seem to be able to resist it so far, but as sfPanzer said, if GW decide to sell primaris death company, they will just say something along the lines of "the primaris marines were able to resist the black rage for a while, but rumor has it that some of them begun to have the death visions..."

[Karhedron]

I understand the black rage as a psychic disease, it doesnt have to do anything with the gene seed strains per se.

The fluff on this has varied over the years. Originally, it dated back to Epic/Space Marine which featured the first appearance of the Death Company. Back then, the Black Rage was a purely physical flaw and the Red Thirst had not been dreamt up yet. During the Siege of Terra, the Blood Angels suffered heavy losses and also their geneseed banks were destroyed. In order to help them recover, still-living germ cells were isolated in Sanguinius' corpse and these were cultured into new geneseed. However Sanguinius's memories were etched into this new geneseed, particularly his final battle with Horus. The Black Rage was thus a genetic memory of their Primarch's death.

 

It was not until much later that the psychic element was introduced. I think it was the Idex Astartes article on the Blood Angels written during 3rd edition that was the first to clam the Black Rage had a psychic aspect that affected all Blood Angels and their successors. Thus even those BAs whose geneseed was descended from warrior of the Great Crusade would be affected. This article also ditched the post-mortem geneseed explanation as far as I am aware.

 

Since that article, I have seen the "psychic echo" description come up from time to time but I have not seen the post-mortem geneseed explanation again. If anyone has a better memory than me, feel free to set em straight.

[Karhedron]

Here is the quotation from IA article. Still looking for the original Epic fluff but this is (I think) the first time a psychic component of the Black Rage is mentioned with no reference to a defect in the geneseed.

 

Sanguinius is thought to have undergone unimaginable psychic damage at the hands of the Warmaster who, it is believed by many Blood Angels, could not best him in personal combat. Horus, in his limitless malice, made sure that Sanguinius's death was the most painful and foul that the boundless evils in his service could administer. The Warmaster's psychic assault echoed not just throughout space, but also throughout time, resonating in the souls of his children. The Primarch's sacrifice is thought to have kept Horus occupied long enough for the Emperor to reach the traitor in the very depths of his lair, where the Emperor eventually bested him at a terrible cost. The pain inflicted upon the Primarch was so total that every one of his sons carries the echo imprinted deep within their soul to this day.

[Panzer]

So no reason why Primaris should be an exception to the Black Rage.

[Majkhel]

I'd risk saying that there are many reasons why they should be affected.
Fluff, character of the Chapter, Sanguinius legacy, coherence and integration within the Chapter, new minis,...

[Karhedron]

So no reason why Primaris should be an exception to the Black Rage.

As per IA you are correct.

 

However the older fluff has the Black Rage with a genetic source. I think the following excerpt is from the 2nd ed wargear book (circa 1993 IIRC) so not quite as old as the one I was looking for but it should suffice.

 

After the final battle was over, and the forces of Chaos were retreating towards the Eye of Terror, the established Space Marine Legions were reorganized into the smaller Space Marine Chapters. The Blood Angels had lost many warriors in the war, but worst of all the genetic banks which provided their implants had been partially destroyed. The only way to make good the damage was to reculture gene-seed from the body of Sanguinius, the Primarch whose genetic structure had been used to create the Blood Angels. Live germ cells were isolated within Sanguinius' body, and eventually new implants were cultured. In this way the Chapter was rebuilt using the gene-seed of Sanguinius taken from his dead body. At the time all seemed well, and it was only over the following millennia that the gene-seed showed traces of mutation. Such matters are not unusual. Every Chapter's gene-seed is subject to a process of evolution or decay, and so must be vigorously examined and periodically purged of fault. As a result most Chapters have idiosyncrasies, but in the case of the Blood Angels these were to prove very strange indeed.

This states that the Black Rage has a genetic origin so could in theory be fixed by Cawl's tinkering. As I say, I am not sure if the genetic origin fluff is still canon. Whether GW decide to give us Primaris Death Company or not, fluff exists that could be used to justify the decision.

[Panzer]

Yeah I was responding to just the IA entry. Should have added a few more words to that post I guess. :P

[dread05]

 

I understand the black rage as a psychic disease, it doesnt have to do anything with the gene seed strains per se.

The fluff on this has varied over the years. Originally, it dated back to Epic/Space Marine which featured the first appearance of the Death Company. Back then, the Black Rage was a purely physical flaw and the Red Thirst had not been dreamt up yet. During the Siege of Terra, the Blood Angels suffered heavy losses and also their geneseed banks were destroyed. In order to help them recover, still-living germ cells were isolated in Sanguinius' corpse and these were cultured into new geneseed. However Sanguinius's memories were etched into this new geneseed, particularly his final battle with Horus. The Black Rage was thus a genetic memory of their Primarch's death.

 

It was not until much later that the psychic element was introduced. I think it was the Idex Astartes article on the Blood Angels written during 3rd edition that was the first to clam the Black Rage had a psychic aspect that affected all Blood Angels and their successors. Thus even those BAs whose geneseed was descended from warrior of the Great Crusade would be affected. This article also ditched the post-mortem geneseed explanation as far as I am aware.

 

Since that article, I have seen the "psychic echo" description come up from time to time but I have not seen the post-mortem geneseed explanation again. If anyone has a better memory than me, feel free to set em straight.

 

 

I'm into 40k for 1 and a half year, I didnt know the old fluff :D My knowledge comes from the latest stuff around.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ruinstorm very definitely indicates it's a psychic cause.

 

I mean, if it was simply a case of who you were descended from, surely it'd be an easy fix, Corbulo could see "hang on, this brothers gene-line has never fallen, nor any of these other dozen or so, let's use servitors to build their geneseed up into a Chapters worth, and only use that from now on".

[Leonaides]

Stronger/weaker dose of the 'infection' for want of a better word, vs stronger or weaker willpower maybe.

[Phiasco]

 

 

 

I understand the black rage as a psychic disease, it doesnt have to do anything with the gene seed strains per se.

The fluff on this has varied over the years. Originally, it dated back to Epic/Space Marine which featured the first appearance of the Death Company. Back then, the Black Rage was a purely physical flaw and the Red Thirst had not been dreamt up yet. During the Siege of Terra, the Blood Angels suffered heavy losses and also their geneseed banks were destroyed. In order to help them recover, still-living germ cells were isolated in Sanguinius' corpse and these were cultured into new geneseed. However Sanguinius's memories were etched into this new geneseed, particularly his final battle with Horus. The Black Rage was thus a genetic memory of their Primarch's death.

 

It was not until much later that the psychic element was introduced. I think it was the Idex Astartes article on the Blood Angels written during 3rd edition that was the first to clam the Black Rage had a psychic aspect that affected all Blood Angels and their successors. Thus even those BAs whose geneseed was descended from warrior of the Great Crusade would be affected. This article also ditched the post-mortem geneseed explanation as far as I am aware.

 

Since that article, I have seen the "psychic echo" description come up from time to time but I have not seen the post-mortem geneseed explanation again. If anyone has a better memory than me, feel free to set em straight.

I'm into 40k for 1 and a half year, I didnt know the old fluff :D My knowledge comes from the latest stuff around.

No worries Dread. There’s no reason for you to have read the old fluff. It’s all outdated, retconned, and entirely inconsequential to the current fluff. Except as a curiosity, of course.

[Brother Quinn]

Have you read it yet? Just finished, was a good read.

 

The only named Primaris was Sergeant Anthus (easy to miss), he appears near the end in a conversation with Dante. You know it’s a Primaris because he has the grey Chevron over the Chapter symbol, one of the unnumbered sons.

 

Who knows... years down the line he could have progressed to Captain in your army.