Death Company, Sanguinary Guard and alternatives.

[Fahlnor]

Hi folks,

 

Like many, I’ve been dithering on the Death Company v. Sanguinary Guard debate and have recently found myself thinking that if I had a clear idea of exactly what each unit excels at, I could more usefully work on an alternative unit which can do a similar thing.

 

My thoughts are that Death Company are particularly good at an aggressive early thrust, hitting the opponent reliably turn one or turn two. Their strength is clearing chaff, though a sprinkling of power weapons and thunder hammers can let them offer some threat to larger units. They benefit particularly from character buffs, with special mention going to Lemartes and the benefits he brings. However, they work best in larger units and are susceptible to morale. That’s exacerbated by their standard MEQ profile - 3+/6++ is very limited defence in this game.

 

By contrast, Sanguinary Guard are equipped to stick around somewhat longer, with improved saves and multiple wounds making them much harder to remove from the board. They can do a job at clearing chaff, but really excel at hitting larger models. The encarmine swords work excellently against PEQ (“Primaris equivalent”?) and TEQ, while the equally-costed power fists will make short work of more durable opponents, including monsters and vehicles. They benefit more from the support of the Sanguinor, who increases their damage output by +50% and can allow full rerolls to hit. Their multiple wounds also means that a Sanguinary Priest can offer more reliable support, auto-healing wounds, rather than bringing models back on a 4+.

 

It seems to me that the Death Company’s role could be passed over to units with decent ranged firepower which can offer an early threat. We would be looking for a high ROF, enough range or movement to start removing models turn one. The focus would be on removing GEQ/MEQ, but having an option to potentially hurt tougher targets of opportunity. Examples might include a Stormraven with assault cannon and hurricane bolters, Baal Preds, Scout Squads set up in midfield, assault cannon Razorbacks, storm bolters on Company Vets/Sternguard, Kheres assault cannon Contemptors, Bike Squads with storm bolters, Scout Bikes or Land Speeders.

 

The Sanguinary Guard rely less on a first-turn strike, so are looking more at heavier-hitters who might need some time to get into range. There’s less reliance on a high rate of fire and more focus on striking hard at the right targets with a small volume of high value attacks. Options include Predators, Stormravens, Assault Terminators, Hellblasters, Devastator squads, Bike squads with plasma, Aggressors and Land Speeders.

 

I think both DC and SG play a valuable role in our armies, but I have to say that it seems to me that Death Company are maybe an easier unit to replace than Sanguinary Guard. The fact that there are more units which can perform similar roles - notably including Scouts, who are Troops - and that they don’t really have the durability to last beyond the first turns of the game makes me think that maybe the Sanguinary Guard should be the focal point of my list.

 

What are your thoughts? Do you think one unit outshines the other? Do you bring both? Neither? Are there any units you think do the job of either DC or SG but even better?

 

Let me know!

[Panzer]

I think as basically flying terminators with force weapons the Sanguinary Guard are in a very unique spot for once. One that can't really get replaced by another unit.

 

I agree with you that Deathcompany are rather easy to replace in comparison. Raven Guard Aggressors for example do something very similar with their mass of S4 shots turn 1, or anything with deep strike and storm bolters.

[Ornithologist]

I typically go one unit of each, and then do the required supporting for one of them to be the main hammer of my army. Some weeks is the HQ squad to chill with the guard, some times it Lemartes and a Priest to keep the death Co on point. 

 

With the new Beta Rules, Putting Deathco in a rhino/Razorback to help with PL balancing is a good way to get some Sanguinary Guard into Deepstrike. They in particular really suffered with the PL balance rule. 

 

For me Sanguinary Guard have been an almost must include this edition.

[Karhedron]

Both DC and SG are really signature units for us and running an army without either wouldn't feel like a Blood Angels army to me at all.

As to which is best, it depends to some extent on the role you are using them for. I normally tool my DC up with a sprinkling of power weapons and fists to threaten heavy targets almost as well as SG and at a lower price point while still being efficient at chaff clearing.

I tend to play slightly smaller games than some people here, 1500 points is typical at my LGC. SG really benefit from buffing up with various support characters such as the Sanguinor, Libby with Unleash Rage, Sanguinary Ancient with Stand of Sacrifice and a JP Priest for +1 Strength and healing (obviously all 4 is overkill but I would normally plan to include at least 2 of the above Characters to buff the SG). This gets expensive and I normally find myself leaving out the SG in games below 2000 points (which is most of the games I play ).

The other problem with SG is Heirs of Azkellon. This only works on models within 6" of the Warlord so unlike most character auras, you cannot simply hang 1 or 2 models back and have the whole squad still benefit from the aura buff. Same for the Standard of Sacrifice. SG really need their support characters charging in with them which makes them less useful for an early drop with DoA.

DC on the other hand can drop in with just Lemartes to support them and with DoA, get a 90%+ chance of pulling off a 9" charge thanks to his reroll. Hang back 1 or 2 models and the charging squad can benefit from Lemartes' rerolls in combat. Even with without DoA on him Lemartes still has a 48% chance of getting into combat on the turn he arrives from Reserves thanks to benefiting from his own reroll.

What this adds up to is the notion that the DC are a glass hammer unit. You throw them at a key enemy unit early in the game in the hope that they can cripple it. They are an alpha-strike unit. I tend to throw them into the enemy (often alongside Captain Smash) and then use the rest of the army to mop up the leftovers.

SG on the other hand require slightly more patience to use effectively. You cannot drop them and their support Characters in from Reserve and expect all of them to successfully make their charges since DoA is once per turn. However they stand a much greater chance of surviving their first engagement and continuing to hurt the enemy (particularly if they are supported by the SoS and/or a Priest).

I guess what it boils down to is this. Sanguinary Guard need plenty of support from the rest of the army. If supported well they can carve through a great deal of the opponent's army. Death Company can work pretty much on their own with just Lemartes. Their job is to punch a whole in the enemy which the rest of your army can then exploit.

This is why I would only run DC and SG together in larger games. At 2000 and below, I feel you cannot run both and still have enough units to support them effectively. My advice is to take one or the other and tool the rest of your army to support them (SG) or exploit the mess they make (DC). Save running both together for big special games where you can afford to get the best out of both of them.

[Fahlnor]

Both DC and SG are really signature units for us and running an army without either wouldn't feel like a Blood Angels army to me at all.

 

As to which is best, it depends to some extent on the role you are using them for. I normally tool my DC up with a sprinkling of power weapons and fists to threaten heavy targets almost as well as SG and at a lower price point while still being efficient at chaff clearing.

 

I tend to play slightly smaller games than some people here, 1500 points is typical at my LGC. SG really benefit from buffing up with various support characters such as the Sanguinor, Libby with Unleash Rage, Sanguinary Ancient with Stand of Sacrifice and a JP Priest for +1 Strength and healing (obviously all 4 is overkill but I would normally plan to include at least 2 of the above Characters to buff the SG). This gets expensive and I normally find myself leaving out the SG in games below 2000 points (which is most of the games I play ).

 

The other problem with SG is Heirs of Azkellon. This only works on models within 6" of the Warlord so unlike most character auras, you cannot simply hang 1 or 2 models back and have the whole squad still benefit from the aura buff. Same for the Standard of Sacrifice. SG really need their support characters charging in with them which makes them less useful for an early drop with DoA.

 

DC on the other hand can drop in with just Lemartes to support them and with DoA, get a 90%+ chance of pulling off a 9" charge thanks to his reroll. Hang back 1 or 2 models and the charging squad can benefit from Lemartes' rerolls in combat. Even with without DoA on him Lemartes still has a 48% chance of getting into combat on the turn he arrives from Reserves thanks to benefiting from his own reroll.

 

What this adds up to is the notion that the DC are a glass hammer unit. You throw them at a key enemy unit early in the game in the hope that they can cripple it. They are an alpha-strike unit. I tend to throw them into the enemy (often alongside Captain Smash) and then use the rest of the army to mop up the leftovers.

 

SG on the other hand require slightly more patience to use effectively. You cannot drop them and their support Characters in from Reserve and expect all of them to successfully make their charges since DoA is once per turn. However they stand a much greater chance of surviving their first engagement and continuing to hurt the enemy (particularly if they are supported by the SoS and/or a Priest).

 

I guess what it boils down to is this. Sanguinary Guard need plenty of support from the rest of the army. If supported well they can carve through a great deal of the opponent's army. Death Company can work pretty much on their own with just Lemartes. Their job is to punch a whole in the enemy which the rest of your army can then exploit.

 

This is why I would only run DC and SG together in larger games. At 2000 and below, I feel you cannot run both and still have enough units to support them effectively. My advice is to take one or the other and tool the rest of your army to support them (SG) or exploit the mess they make (DC). Save running both together for big special games where you can afford to get the best out of both of them.

 

I think this is an excellent response, thanks.

 

I agree that using one or the other is our best option and I think that the easiest one to replace is the Death Company, so I'm going to be focusing my attentions on the Sanguinary Guard for now.

[Kappel]

I have just begun to run SG's. But I do still run DC's with them. 

 

The DC's tend to go for chaff. SG and my second DC is equipped to deal with bigger stuff, and typically arrive later in the game, exploiting the holes the first DC and Lemartes have created.

 

I am actually making one of the SG's the warlord. That way I can secure all the lovely rerolls on the whole squad, all the time. I know that it 'costs' me the bonus I would get from making a character the warlord. But does any of our warlord traits compare with giving 10 SG's reroll on ALL to hit rolls?  

[Paladin777]

[Arkhanist]

That is... genius, I think. For a big squad of SG, certainly; you still get the free relic, just lose the warlord trait - and as you say, none of them are that amazing compared to not needing to worry about keeping a character in range for HoA. It's even pretty fluffy (as long as Dante is not on the field!) given the SG are among the most elite warriors of the Chapter.

 

I might just steal that idea!