Cypher and Fallen: Help make them work

[Aothaine]

Hey everyone! 

 

So I've been looking around a lot recently and I came across Cypher again. So my goal here is to make them work. I want to build a Vanguard Detachment similar to below.

 

Vanguard Detachment

 

[HQ] Cypher

[E] Fallen (10 man)

[E] Fallen (10 man)

[E] Fallen (10 man)

 

 

Different Loadouts:

 

- Combi-Bolter x5, Autocannon x1, Bolter x4

- Combi-Bolter x5, Lascannon x1, Bolter x4

- Combi-Plasma x5, Autocannon x1, Bolter x4

- Combi-Plasma x5, Lascannon x1, Bolter x4

- Combi-Melta x5, Lascannon x1, Bolter x4

- Two Lightning Claws x5, Chainsword x5

- Powerfist x5, Chainsword x5

 

 

I can't have my codex with me because it is on my iPad in my truck and I can't have it in work. But I'm trying to figure out how best to use a detachment like this. I know their not top of the line units but they do have some very cool rules which aid in survival from morale and always reroll 1s to hit if stationary. So maybe camp these guys on an objective and not go with the melee options. Out of all the builds above, the ones with the 5 combi-bolters and combi-plasmas are my favorites. 

 

- Combi-Bolter x5, Autocannon x1, Bolter x4

- Combi-Bolter x5, Lascannon x1, Bolter x4

- Combi-Plasma x5, Autocannon x1, Bolter x4

- Combi-Plasma x5, Lascannon x1, Bolter x4

 

So I don't have the points for the detachments above. But my main concern is what would I add to a list to pull fire away from these guys so they can layout the damage in a way that might catch the opponent off-guard but also still be really cool. 

 

I looked a little into renegades and can see three squads of 9 bikers being awesome! 20" move with advance turn 1 then a 2"-12" charge range on top of that should put them straight into the enemy lines. They don't have much punch when they get there though sadly. Not sure if it is worth the ability to get them in the lines. I could also run them as Black Legion and still use 9-man squads and advance with the goal of getting 18 bolter shots on the opponent per squad but I think that is also really expensive and I don't know if it fits correctly and if their charged they are in trouble. The renegades will swap out the bolt pistol for chain swords giving them 19 attacks on the charge. Still not very impressive.

 

I can also run the three Predators for the option to try and use the stratagem that works with them. I wonder if running Emperor's children with three Noise Marine squads, A daemon prince (usual loadout), a sorcerer for gags and three decimators with the petards would fit/work?

 

Another option I was thinking about is taking three heldrakes in a flyer detachment and fill out the rest with min-sized troops with lascannons.

 

Anyway, what can you guys come up with? The detachment above needs to stay the same Cyper and three squads of 10 fallen. I don't care if you change their loadouts. Just curious what other people might do.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

I happen to have almost 50 Fallen myself, bought pre FAQ of course. Here's what I did....

 

1. Built a Renegades and Heretics detachment from the Forge World Imperial Armour Index: Astra Militarum. This represents the private armies that Fallen often amass and Fallen can do well acting as the anchor and/or counter-charge units for a bunch of Traitor Guard.

 

2. Built a Black Legion Detachment all with Dark Angel aesthetics. This contains all of the Fallen models that wouldn't fit into the detachment because of the new Matched Play "Rule of 3," along with Termies, bikes, etc. This fits because one of the Black Legion warbands from the novel "Black Legion" is called the Black Lions, and is composed entirely of Fallen led by a man named Vortigern, who is a member of Abaddon's inner council.

 

3. Set up some lists so that I could field my Fallen with either of the above, whether leading their own troops or lending aid to old allies who have "taken The Black." I also have 3 Renegade Knights that I can field alongside them, where they can hold rear objectives while the Knights advance.

 

Hope that helps.

[Aothaine]

 

 

This does! Reading Black Legion right now can't wait to get to the part with the Fallen. That means that the main character tells the Inquisition about them. I wonder if GW realized that the Dark Angels secret is not longer a secret anymore....

 

But you have very good ideas here! Thank you for your thoughts!

[Venemox]

I happen to have almost 50 Fallen myself, bought pre FAQ of course. Here's what I did....

 

Am I reading the Big FAQ 1 correctly in that the Fallen now MUST stand alone?

 

edits:  miscapitalization.

[Kite Senet]

That's my understanding. In particular, they can only be taken in Auxiliary detachments or Vanguard detachments containing exactly Cypher and three units of Fallen. It seems like a horrible oversight, and I'm a bit disappointed that this still hasn't been addressed as best I'm aware, particularly since I just finished painting my Cypher model a few weeks ago and now I have little motivation to buy Fallen to flesh out a full Fallen army.

[ChazSexington]

 

I happen to have almost 50 Fallen myself, bought pre FAQ of course. Here's what I did....

 

Am I reading the Big FAQ 1 correctly in that the Fallen now MUST stand alone?

 

edits:  miscapitalization.

 

 

 

That's my understanding. In particular, they can only be taken in Auxiliary detachments or Vanguard detachments containing exactly Cypher and three units of Fallen. It seems like a horrible oversight, and I'm a bit disappointed that this still hasn't been addressed as best I'm aware, particularly since I just finished painting my Cypher model a few weeks ago and now I have little motivation to buy Fallen to flesh out a full Fallen army.

 

They must stand alone, aye, and you can't take Fabius at all. It would be easy enough to just adjust their datasheets, which GW might do. 

 

Fallen don't work. I ran them pre-beta rules as well as I could (loads of plasma) with Cypher, but you're better off taking Chosen with a Chaos Lord with two pistols than the overpriced Cypher. You get Marks, Transports and Legion Tactics (-1 to hit etc), and you can use Mark- and Legion-specific Stratagems.

 

I'm sorry to be a negative Nancy, but I would run them as something else, honestly. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Fallen fit better into a detachment allied with an R&H army, which can use the durability and output.

 

Fabius can be taken. Not sure what Chaz is seeing. He has the Heretic Astartes Faction keyword, which isn't on the list of banned common Faction keywords in Battle Brothers

[Sonoftherubric21]

Why is cypher bad? I have run him with my Black Legion list a few times and he usually pulls his own weight.  he shoots alot, is not a scrub in melee, and is reasonably priced.  At least when I have used him he does pretty well. 

[ChazSexington]

Fallen fit better into a detachment allied with an R&H army, which can use the durability and output.

Fabius can be taken. Not sure what Chaz is seeing. He has the Heretic Astartes Faction keyword, which isn't on the list of banned common Faction keywords in Battle Brothers

Sorry, you're correct! I was thinking along the Chaos keyword.

 

 

Why is cypher bad? I have run him with my Black Legion list a few times and he usually pulls his own weight. he shoots alot, is not a scrub in melee, and is reasonably priced. At least when I have used him he does pretty well.

 

Cypher has an almost identical loadout to a Chaos Lord with a plasma pistol and bolt pistol, which costs 29 points less. That 29 points guys you advance and shoot, 1 M, a plasma pistol that doesn't overheat with 2 shots, 4" range, 3 shots, and AP-1 on a bolt pistol, and denying VPs in some scenarios on a 2+.

 

Normally, that wouldn't be too bad. But Chaos Lords are built for close combat and buffing units, not firing pistols with the damage output of a plasma gun, which is a much fairer comparison. He has nowhere near the damage output of a Chaos Lord with some big and nasty weapon, lacks the mobility of a bike-mounted or jump pack-equipped Chaos Lord, and he only buffs Fallen.

 

Not saying there's no role for him in any casual or narrative list, but as a competitive choice, there's a reason he doesn't get taken. A barebones Alpha Legion Lord (with a combi-plasma and powerfist if you wish) buffing 6 plasma-armed Chosen you've Infiltrated if gonna do a hell of a lot more. Same thing goes for Iron Warriors in Rhinos with a Lord, Renegades with Huron or a biker Lord with bikes, Black Legion if you want to footslog (and then you can take Abaddon) etc.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Interesting; I actually just made a bunch of Fallen themed chosen for my Black Legion, as well as a Lord with sword/Combi Plasma (Dark vengance commander but with a Mark 3 helmet) specifically to make good use of Plasma fallen. fry anything within 20 inchs of the Rhino lol.  

Thats fair, I usually think of him as a 110 point commander that really supports a squad with some shooting, whenever I have used him he usually pays his points in harassment but I agree that the actual support/output can be mimicked by far cheaper characters we can custom make.  Warpsmiths have a regular spot in my lists when I go tank heavy and they can easily out shoot Cypher for a good 20 or so points less (lacking on Invul and movement speed, but aside that)  

 

Thats a fair point, but glad I am glad I made the Fallen for my Black Legion, I basically just used the standard robed bodies from the Dark Angels kit.  However, I used Mark 3 helmets, and Heresy-era guns and shoulders (mark 3 pattern arms/guns such as Phobos) and lots of Plasma in that squad as the DA were always plasma lovers.  Its a neat themed squad admittedly, but Id always take them as black legion, Fallen are somewhat superfluous given they cant fullfill the roll of chosen as they cannot get close enough safely enough to do it.  But luckily chosen are basically identical in use and application, ridiculous shooting output and decent melee capability. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Interesting; I actually just made a bunch of Fallen themed chosen for my Black Legion, as well as a Lord with sword/Combi Plasma (Dark vengance commander but with a Mark 3 helmet) specifically to make good use of Plasma fallen. fry anything within 20 inchs of the Rhino lol.  

 

Thats fair, I usually think of him as a 110 point commander that really supports a squad with some shooting, whenever I have used him he usually pays his points in harassment but I agree that the actual support/output can be mimicked by far cheaper characters we can custom make.  Warpsmiths have a regular spot in my lists when I go tank heavy and they can easily out shoot Cypher for a good 20 or so points less (lacking on Invul and movement speed, but aside that)  

 

Thats a fair point, but glad I am glad I made the Fallen for my Black Legion, I basically just used the standard robed bodies from the Dark Angels kit.  However, I used Mark 3 helmets, and Heresy-era guns and shoulders (mark 3 pattern arms/guns such as Phobos) and lots of Plasma in that squad as the DA were always plasma lovers.  Its a neat themed squad admittedly, but Id always take them as black legion, Fallen are somewhat superfluous given they cant fullfill the roll of chosen as they cannot get close enough safely enough to do it.  But luckily chosen are basically identical in use and application, ridiculous shooting output and decent melee capability.

Practicality aside, Vortigern and the Black Lions are awesome anyway.

[techsoldaten]

Given the restrictions on transports and lack of synergy with a greater Chaos force, my advice would be to run Cypher and the Fallen as a Chaos Lord and Chosen. That way, you get access to Warlord Traits, Stratagems, and all the other Chaos goodness.

 

Between Dark Vengeance and strays accumulated over the years, I have a ton of Dark Angels models sitting around and might just do this myself. I've played against enough Dark Angels armies to know I like the Chaos rules more.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Given the restrictions on transports and lack of synergy with a greater Chaos force, my advice would be to run Cypher and the Fallen as a Chaos Lord and Chosen. That way, you get access to Warlord Traits, Stratagems, and all the other Chaos goodness.

 

Between Dark Vengeance and strays accumulated over the years, I have a ton of Dark Angels models sitting around and might just do this myself. I've played against enough Dark Angels armies to know I like the Chaos rules more.

If I remember right, you're a Black Legion player. Just add BL bits to make them Black Lions and you're done. You can even do Termies, Bikes, or other things you might have sitting around.

[El_Dicko]

One thing that I've considered is running them alongside proper Astra Militarum to represent fallen coming to power and taking over an imperial world.

[techsoldaten]

 

Given the restrictions on transports and lack of synergy with a greater Chaos force, my advice would be to run Cypher and the Fallen as a Chaos Lord and Chosen. That way, you get access to Warlord Traits, Stratagems, and all the other Chaos goodness.

 

Between Dark Vengeance and strays accumulated over the years, I have a ton of Dark Angels models sitting around and might just do this myself. I've played against enough Dark Angels armies to know I like the Chaos rules more.

If I remember right, you're a Black Legion player. Just add BL bits to make them Black Lions and you're done. You can even do Termies, Bikes, or other things you might have sitting around.

 

 

Quite a good memory there. Adjusted my icon to be more clear about where my allegiances lie.

 

So I thought about that and decided not to, mostly because I'd like to have a set of units that could be used as Fallen or as Dark Angels proper.

 

As much as I dislike Imperial troops, sometimes it's fun to play the bad guys.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

One thing that I've considered is running them alongside proper Astra Militarum to represent fallen coming to power and taking over an imperial world.

Happens a fair amount in the fluff. Considered it myself a few times.

[Aothaine]

One thing that I've considered is running them alongside proper Astra Militarum to represent fallen coming to power and taking over an imperial world.

 

Pretty sure this is going to be their best use now. Mainly use them for fluff reasons and not competitive play at all. They are stuck walking but they can still be pretty useful in certain lists. I'll work on some more ways to use them over the next few weeks and post them here. If only they could deep strike... :/

[El_Dicko]

 

One thing that I've considered is running them alongside proper Astra Militarum to represent fallen coming to power and taking over an imperial world.

Happens a fair amount in the fluff. Considered it myself a few times.

Would be a cool excuse to model a Chaos Marine as a Leman Russ Tank Commander!