Dealing with indirect fire

[mertbl]

How does your army list deal with indirect fire? I played a nid guy last night with 6 double shooting hive guard hidden in a ruin. He had pretty good protection and I couldn't touch him.

 

Looking at changing my list and adding whirlwinds or thunderfire cannons, never used them before.

 

I do have a large guard army and could pull almost anything but I'd prefer to run pure.

[Captain Idaho]

A couple Vengeance Launcher Whirlwinds will help somewhat but I guess the only real way is to send some assault troops in there but that's easier said than done.

 

If fast moving stuff can draw a bead on them it'll help a bunch.

[Panzer]

Well ... the best solution is still to ally with AM and include some artillery on your own. Pure Marines will have a very hard time dealing with something they can't see. Flyer if you can get them in a good position can work tho.

[Dark_Jober]

I'm a total noob, but here are my proposals:

 

If you want to go pure:

• Whirlwind is not enough for this duty, not enough weight of fire
• Orbital Bombardement (once per battle) Not enough
• TFC
• Rapier with Quad launcher (FAQ) with Thunderfire shells. (2Gunners and Rapier with Quad Launcher 85p)
• Stormtalon with Twin Assault Cannon and Missiles. Good saturation.

If you want to go with IG:

• Heavy Weapons Teams with MORTARS 33p each team of 3... so with 99p you can field 9mortars...
• Vehicles with artillery

[Logiter]

I often use the whirlwind Scorpius. Rules are in imperial armour.

 

When it doesn’t move it gets 6d3 shots, 48” range 2 damage, and of course ignores line of sight. Can work wonders against hidden units or multi wound models.

 

Also, admits essentially just a whirlwind, easy enough to proxy if your group is into it

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Hive Guard are so annoying. I try to deploy outside their range and force them to move.

[Tamiel]

I think people who are trying to counter indirect fire with indirect fire are on the wrong path, at least with our codex. As Space Marines, most of our indirect fire is pitiful. I don't know about forgeworld, so I won't touch on that, but if you want to deal with indirect fire through the use of your own indirect fire, the SM codex is not the right place to look. You can ally in guard since they have some of the best indirect fire in the game. You can also, as a pure Space Marines list, try other approaches to dealing with this problem.

Rather than turning it into an arms race of artillery, you can look at what the SM codex does well (which, in my opinion, is close ranged shooting followed by charging) and think about other ways. Think about your last game. If you had a 10-man assault squad (or Vet squad if you had the extra points), could you have tied up the enemy artillery for a turn or two? What if you were to rush that artillery with a rhino full of tac-marines?

Were you playing as a gunline army, or did you have units that could move into melee to tie up enemy shooters? All I'm saying is there's more than one way to skin a cat, and "shoot them harder than they can shoot us" doesn't always work as well for us marines as it does for other codexes.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And I'd counter your assertion with claims on the sheer awesome ness of the Thunderfire Cannon. It's got a good rate of fire, high strength for dealing with infantry, one of the few universally good stratagems, and it's easy to hide. Oh, and 60" range, so the units you're hitting with counter battery fire really cannot hide from it.

[mertbl]

I wasn't really able to get to him. He was in a corner (vanguard strike) 8.5" from board edge and corner. No where to drop. Carnifex brood and trannofex guarding them. In this situation, indirect fire was the only thing that was going to get in there. We played with lots of LoS blocking terrain.

 

I had 15 vanguard and 10 assault marines, 30 scouts. Afterwards we talked about game and I might have been able to make a play for his corner. I went with the easier pickings and hoped to roll the thin corner of his deployment zone. One failed charge later and the whole thing fell apart.

 

I think people who are trying to counter indirect fire with indirect fire are on the wrong path, at least with our codex. As Space Marines, most of our indirect fire is pitiful. I don't know about forgeworld, so I won't touch on that, but if you want to deal with indirect fire through the use of your own indirect fire, the SM codex is not the right place to look. You can ally in guard since they have some of the best indirect fire in the game. You can also, as a pure Space Marines list, try other approaches to dealing with this problem.

 

Rather than turning it into an arms race of artillery, you can look at what the SM codex does well (which, in my opinion, is close ranged shooting followed by charging) and think about other ways. Think about your last game. If you had a 10-man assault squad (or Vet squad if you had the extra points), could you have tied up the enemy artillery for a turn or two? What if you were to rush that artillery with a rhino full of tac-marines?

 

Were you playing as a gunline army, or did you have units that could move into melee to tie up enemy shooters? All I'm saying is there's more than one way to skin a cat, and "shoot them harder than they can shoot us" doesn't always work as well for us marines as it does for other codexes.

[Captain Idaho]

I have no problems with a Vengeance Launcher Whirlwind. 2 damage and 2D3 shots is actually solid.

 

An alternative would be an airstrike if you can't reach them in close combat and shooting.

[ERJAK]

I think people who are trying to counter indirect fire with indirect fire are on the wrong path, at least with our codex. As Space Marines, most of our indirect fire is pitiful. I don't know about forgeworld, so I won't touch on that, but if you want to deal with indirect fire through the use of your own indirect fire, the SM codex is not the right place to look. You can ally in guard since they have some of the best indirect fire in the game. You can also, as a pure Space Marines list, try other approaches to dealing with this problem.

 

Rather than turning it into an arms race of artillery, you can look at what the SM codex does well (which, in my opinion, is close ranged shooting followed by charging) and think about other ways. Think about your last game. If you had a 10-man assault squad (or Vet squad if you had the extra points), could you have tied up the enemy artillery for a turn or two? What if you were to rush that artillery with a rhino full of tac-marines?

 

Were you playing as a gunline army, or did you have units that could move into melee to tie up enemy shooters? All I'm saying is there's more than one way to skin a cat, and "shoot them harder than they can shoot us" doesn't always work as well for us marines as it does for other codexes.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if you have a 10 man assault squad, or god forbid a rhino full of tac marines, indirect fire is the least of your problems.

[Tokugawa]

TFC is ok, and TFC would be much more better if we needn't pay points cost for the useless arms of gunner.For current points cost I would rather pay for ally mortars, 9 mortars for only humble 99pts.

[Ishagu]

Whirlwind Scorpius - best Indirect fire unit available to Marines imo. Hit them hard. There's no need to invest in allies or make vast alterations to your list. Nids are currently very powerful, and we need to bring out the best units against them to even the playing field.

 

The Scorpius is reasonably priced and has a cannon that fires 12 Shots average at Str6, -2AP, 2 Damage

 

The Thunderfire or regular Whirlwinds don't pack enough punch to get work done quickly enough to actually blunt the Nid damage in the first few turns.

[Captain Idaho]

Forge World might not be an option here but that vehicle is incredibly powerful so would deal with the situation.

[Ishagu]

Nids are a tough one. Getting close to the unit you want to deal with might not be an option, they could surround them with critters or move forward to box you in, by which point it's too late.

 

To be blunt, their codex is far superior. A player needs access to all potential options to be able to put up a good fight.

[Aegir_Einarsson]

TFC is Also good If you concider tremor shells. 1CP. Half movement advance And charge for those fast nids units. Yes Please.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

TFC is Also good If you concider tremor shells. 1CP. Half movement advance And charge for those fast nids units. Yes Please.

This. Turn off that long charge from Genestealers, and even with the -1 to wound, you're still wounding them on a 4+, which isn't terrible.

[Ishagu]

Whilst it is definitely helpful, it won't really deal with TC's problem of suffering significant damage from indirect fire.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

...and I just realized that with the ARTILLERY keyword, the cannon itself doesn't benefit from Chapter Traits, too, though the no-cover from Imperial Fists seems pretty fluffy to me. Still though, I will continue to recommend the TFC for indirect fire use. It's rate of fire and range make it a good counter-battery option.

[d36williams]

TFC is good because it also does other things that can be helpful in a take all comers list.

 

Hive Guard in a Ruin, especially if ITC Ruins Rules, is a special problem I've been talking about. It's a pain! You can't even charge them if they position right. Hive Guard are in a unique position to exploit the combination of "LOS ignoring" "LOS blocking" and "cannot be charged if you can't fit model." 

 

Vengeance Launcher Whirlwind is a good weapon but overcosted like all the Whirlwinds. 

 

Orbital Bombardment near them, smite; the goal is to remove enough Hive Guard that you can get some models into CC with them. 

 

Imagine a squad of Hive Guard, in a ruin on the 1st floor, surrounded by LOS blocking walls. That unit can easily be made untouchable excepting other LOS ignoring fire. I know Tyranid players who are looking to exploit it. It's not available every game, but when it is, it's super powerful.

[mertbl]

D36, that's essentially what happened to me. Perfect terrain, smart player, crushed.