Counts as Raven Guard!

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Im really liking the look of codex: deathwatch.  GW found a way to make intercessors and reivers good by giving them access to special issue ammo.  10 man squads of intercessors firing Kraken rounds at 36" with their +1 to wound roll stratagem is really tasty.  Add in a banner and finally TROOPS are doing something other than holding objectives.  

 

Anyone else here like the idea of "counts as" deathwatch detachments?  

[seriade]

The problem just looking at them is not the troops themselves its getting the troops to where you want them.  Primaris only transport option is alright but it is not great.  That honestly makes reviers the only really decent option they have and you basically need to spend up to 2 points extra each on them so you can have 3 squads either deep strike or come off a board edge.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

who needs transports with 36" range intercessors?  Just park 30 of those in your deployment zone and wreck face.

[seriade]

if you can effectively shoot from your deployment zone you are not playing with enough terrain on the table.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

if you can effectively shoot from your deployment zone you are not playing with enough terrain on the table.

What a silly point.  36 inches is enough range to drastically effect the game state.  Who is going to want to move into a firing arc facing down -2 ap bolters that reroll all misses with potential for re-rolling 1s to wound and +1 to wound?  Also, those are rapid fire weapons so add another 6 inches of movement if need be.  Furthermore, the reality is that most people that play 40k are not playing on ITC tables which you are perfectly aware of.  

[Dracos]

At first glance, with limited information, I think there is a lot to like in the Deathwatch for someone (me) who wants to play primarily with Primaris models. I’ll reserve judgment until I have a closer look at the Codex and can see what point and PL cost are going to be. I could see going Double Battalon: Raven Guard/Deathwatch but pretty sure giving up the -1 to be hit at 12” is going to be pretty hard to do.

 

... and as much as I want to try it, I don’t think mixing Primaris (looking at Hellblasters with Intercessors) is going to be effective in games over 1k.

 

I’m definitely buying the Codex though ;)

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

At first glance, with limited information, I think there is a lot to like in the Deathwatch for someone (me) who wants to play primarily with Primaris models. I’ll reserve judgment until I have a closer look at the Codex and can see what point and PL cost are going to be. I could see going Double Battalon: Raven Guard/Deathwatch but pretty sure giving up the -1 to be hit at 12” is going to be pretty hard to do.

 

... and as much as I want to try it, I don’t think mixing Primaris (looking at Hellblasters with Intercessors) is going to be effective in games over 1k.

 

I’m definitely buying the Codex though

Just a vanguard detachment of reivers could be extremely disruptive.   Assault 2 weapons firing off -2 ap shots or hellfire rounds that wound on 2s really do allow reivers to live up to their fluff.

[Race Bannon]

Absolutely!

 

I'm not doing it, but it looks like a good idea on paper. Try it out and tell us what happened on the table. :tu:

[MajorNese]

I have no clue of the rules so far (being out of the loop for one more week), but I guess DW is a great way to field a specialist squad of Raptors primaris. Better bolters sound awesome, and replacing the standard shoulder pads with DW ones would visually make sense (veterans who returned to the chapter after serving with the DW) and be easy to do too.

 

Scary long-ranged bolters which wound more easily, have considerable AP and stratagems - maybe not tournament grade gouda, but fluffy as hell. Will look into that when sober and up to speed.

[Dracos]

Just a vanguard detachment of reivers could be extremely disruptive. Assault 2 weapons firing off -2 ap shots or hellfire rounds that wound on 2s really do allow reivers to live up to their fluff.

I’m thinking of holding back 5 Intercessors from ETL so I can make a squad to run with my Inquisitor model or maybe altering the Warhawk color scheme in some way as to run them “counts as” you have suggested.

 

... which would probably lead me to building a 3rd Scout squad to fill out my double battalion. Hmmmmm

[MajorNese]

After watching the review video, these guys seem to be the go-to Raptors SF guys, if one wants to use primaris. Stalker boltrifles become really scary with AP-2 and hellfire ammo, wounding anything but vehicles/titanic on a 2+, or increasing range to 42" with kraken. Regular boltrifles are even more flexible, but don't have the same AP. At +1p compared to regular models, that's absolutely acceptable. There were ways to buff them with DW HQs/relics/WT, but I don't have the full info there.

 

Mixed units seem okay, nothing too crazy. Using intercessors for midfield skirmishing worked well before, using a single reiver (ignore vertical distances), inceptor (fall back and shoot) and/or agressor (advance without penalty) could turn them into a frustratingly slippery skirmisher. Also, deep strike stratagem to make a still-rather-cheap unit more flexible, dropping them into the right spot on turn 2, and being an annoyance after that. Increased threat level may mean an early death too, but we'll see...

[Dracos]

I’m very curious on just what is the least expensive (points) way you can build a Battalion with Intercessors as the base. For instance do you pay +1 per model for SIA or is it per weapon (bolt rifle and bolt pistol)? and are the HQ choices going to price this idea to the point it negatively impacts the way I want to play with Primaris.

 

I’m also interested how or if the PL per unit is affected by mixing units?

 

I’d love to be able to run a Battalion of Warhawks <Raven Guard> who perform the SftS and DS duties while the Deathwatch Battalion start on the table, satisfying the 50/50 according to the Big FAQ requirements.

 

As much as I thought I’d love to sprinkle Hellblasters in with Intercessors, after some analysis, I’m fine keeping all my Hellblasters in the Warhawk detachment and “settling” for the DW Intercessors having rapid-fire SIA. All of them are good and make Intercessors the all-comers champion for Space Marines

[Claws and Effect]

Counts as?

 

I'm just building Deathwatch.

 

I'll post my conversion of Watch Captain Korvydae soon :D

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Counts as?

 

I'm just building Deathwatch.

 

I'll post my conversion of Watch Captain Korvydae soon

Yeah... models painted to look like Raven Guard but using DW rules for competitive purposes. 

[Dracos]

Speaking of ... any idea how you are going to visibly make the distinction between the two so as not to cause confusion for you or your opponent?

 

I’m thinking a different color for the Aquila and /or helmet might be easiest if I go that route.

[Claws and Effect]

Speaking of ... any idea how you are going to visibly make the distinction between the two so as not to cause confusion for you or your opponent?

 

I’m thinking a different color for the Aquila and /or helmet might be easiest if I go that route.

Chapter icon on the right side.

[MajorNese]

Getting DW shoulder pads and helmets is easy, many DW boxes are just one or two bucks above the regular version. As I've said, Raptors who returned to the chapter after DW service, still carrying the DW pad, and some wargear/bitz.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

Speaking of ... any idea how you are going to visibly make the distinction between the two so as not to cause confusion for you or your opponent?

 

I’m thinking a different color for the Aquila and /or helmet might be easiest if I go that route.

Chapter icon on the right side.

 

 

From the Raptor perspective, standard Olive Drab with a DW Steel Arm/Shoulder Pad and DW models makes sense.

 

From a Raven Guard perspective, the issue isn't quite as clear cut. Since the Raven Guard paint scheme is nearly identical to the DW one, I agree, there should be some sort of signifying accent color. First thought is return from the DW would typically result in some sort of Veterancy status, so a White Right Arm (and Black Chapter symbol), Steel Left/Shoulder, and maybe a Shoulder trim color on the white/left to match your company they are assigned to?

[WAR]

There was an old Black Library story called One Hate about a Crimson Fists Chaplain and a Squad of Crimson Fists 5th Company Marines. One of the Squad Members was former Deathwatch and and he only wore the DW Shoulder pad on his Left Shoulder and carried a DW Bolter.  IIRC the rest of his armor was Crimson FIst blue.  So in theory a former DW Ravenguard marine would have his personal equipment and a Silver Left DW Shoulder pad and His Chapter icon on the right. His Squad Markings/ Designate would go on his knees/ Legs like on the MK VI Armour 

[Race Bannon]

Ahh, but iirc the original DW article suggested, upon completion of duty in the Deathwatch, the DW pauldron would be worn on the right side (and keeping the M.40 bolter), so that the rest of the armor conforms within Chapter "colors". 

 

In other words, the Chapter colors takes precedence, thus the Chapter sigil returns to the left shoulder.

 

To me, this makes the most sense.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Ahh, but iirc the original DW article suggested, upon completion of duty in the Deathwatch, the DW pauldron would be worn on the right side (and keeping the M.40 bolter), so that the rest of the armor conforms within Chapter "colors". 

 

In other words, the Chapter colors takes precedence, thus the Chapter sigil returns to the left shoulder.

 

To me, this makes the most sense.

 

I agree with this sentiment. 

 

Does anyone have any official GW reference art (or photos of studio Minis) that dictate one way or another?

 

(Not that it matters, its bound to be changed again)

[Dracos]

 

 

Speaking of ... any idea how you are going to visibly make the distinction between the two so as not to cause confusion for you or your opponent?

I’m thinking a different color for the Aquila and /or helmet might be easiest if I go that route.

 

Chapter icon on the right side.

From the Raptor perspective, standard Olive Drab with a DW Steel Arm/Shoulder Pad and DW models makes sense.

 

From a Raven Guard perspective, the issue isn't quite as clear cut. Since the Raven Guard paint scheme is nearly identical to the DW one, I agree, there should be some sort of signifying accent color. First thought is return from the DW would typically result in some sort of Veterancy status, so a White Right Arm (and Black Chapter symbol), Steel Left/Shoulder, and maybe a Shoulder trim color on the white/left to match your company they are assigned to?

That won’t work so well for me being a DIY Warhawks Primaris <Raven Guard> Chapter ... but I think you’ve given me a great idea, considering the whole shiny ass silver thing doesn’t work for my alt. Raptor-inspired Chapter “heraldry” of quasi-camo paint scheme. Pallid Wych Flesh is an off white tending toward grey. By going with that on his right arm and “frilling” the bolt rifle with same gold (blends with the desert yellow) I’m using in the Aquila. That should be distinct enough to look like a veteran squad - definitely going to test that after painting the first Warhawk squad of Intercessors as part of my first ETL Vow .... which I just submitted :)

 

Edit: seconding what Race suggested. Always made sense to me that Chapter held highest honor place ;)

[WAR]

Ahh, but iirc the original DW article suggested, upon completion of duty in the Deathwatch, the DW pauldron would be worn on the right side (and keeping the M.40 bolter), so that the rest of the armor conforms within Chapter "colors".

 

In other words, the Chapter colors takes precedence, thus the Chapter sigil returns to the left shoulder.

 

To me, this makes the most sense.

Could have been the right side been a while since I read the short story

[Race Bannon]

@Itvyper - I'll dig out my IA article on the DW.  Can't post pics from it though 

[Claws and Effect]

Makes sense that the Chapter pauldron would return to the left.

 

Deathwatch veterans are told they must be Deathwatch first and their Chapter second, but that only holds true for the time they are actually serving in the Deathwatch.

 

I personally wouldn't have more than 1 guy in my whole army that is a returned Deathwatch guy. Simply because it is very rare for a Marine to actually return while he's still alive.