Manticore vs basilisk

[Bmseifer]

So I have 2 manticores but I never end up using them instead of my 3 basilisks.

 

Output wise they are pretty much the same, basilisk is 22,4pts per shot and manticore is 19,3pts. That puts the manticore a notch above the basilisk but I feel the higher ap of the eartshaker outweighs that and even the str difference on the different platforms is negligible.

 

Can someone give me some selling points on the manticore? I just feel they are to much the same to warrant bringing both

[zero88]

Sadly the only selling point besides rule of cool is if you face lots of T5 targets. Only then is the 2+ to wound better than the better AP, and thats not even a given. Best case example I can think of is TWC with Storm Shields

[Halfpint100]

You average more shots per rocket, but you can only shoot 4 times, with catachan, the average amount of shots does increase. there is a reason they were used as a "primarch deletion detachment" a while back

[Danny Cyanide]

Can you still fire all four rockets at once if you desire?

[Tyr13]

Nope, one missile per turn. Though the 4 missile limit isnt too bad, really. After 4 turns, you might be at a point where you can barely shoot anymore anyway. Its really more shots per model vs better AP, pretty much. The Manticore is also a bit tougher at T7. Can be relevant against some enemies. Really, they seem to fill the same general niche at this point, and both do well enough to make it a matter of choice which one you prefer. Both differ slightly, but theyll also both kill stuff without seeing it reasonably effectively. Just go with whatever looks cooler, I guess. :P

[Hatarus]

Nope, one missile per turn. Though the 4 missile limit isnt too bad, really. After 4 turns, you might be at a point where you can barely shoot anymore anyway. Its really more shots per model vs better AP, pretty much. The Manticore is also a bit tougher at T7. Can be relevant against some enemies. Really, they seem to fill the same general niche at this point, and both do well enough to make it a matter of choice which one you prefer. Both differ slightly, but theyll also both kill stuff without seeing it reasonably effectively. Just go with whatever looks cooler, I guess.

I would say the Basilisk has more staying power over the Manticore after all if a game can be drawn out even if the Manticore is safe it's going to run out of ammo by turn 5 plus if only half the shots actually hit you've pretty much wasted it's potential   

[Tyr13]

What dyou mean, if only half the shots actually hit? The Basilisk has the same problem, but just over half the shots, so... same issue there? Plus, rolling more dice makes it more likely youll get an average result, whereas a Basilisk is going to be more swingy. Ill grant you that the survivability is offset by the limited ammunition though.

[Tokugawa]

If an AM player post a list with 3 manticores, there would usually have comments "switch some to basilisk" in less than 10 replies.

 

If an AM player post a list with 3 basilisks..."OK, bring them". 

[Altasmurf]

For me it's a points issue. The minute the basilisk became -3 ap and is a good 30+ points cheaper it spelled the end of the manticore for me. The basilisk puts out consistent shot numbers and with -3 i find it more dependable then a manticore. But really this guard, everything in our dex is cheap so bring both.

[patchestheclown]

Some quick math-hammer...

Manticore - 4 missiles, 2d6 shots each (average of 7 shots but I'm gonna round to 8 for easier math). gonna assume 2 damage average

Basilisk - d6 shots every turn (roll 2 pick highest means that your average is 4.something so I'll round to 4 for easier math) gonna assume 2 damage average

 

Manticores can only shoot for 4 turns so on average 8*4 = 24 shots all game, meaning ~12 hits *some better rolls/CP reroll/catachan will up this

Basilisk can shoot ever turn so 4*5 = 20 shots guaranteed, 4*7 = 28 shots on turn 7, 10 - 14 hits *some better rolls/CP reroll/catachan will up this

 

So they are pretty similar in shot output with short games being advantageous for the manticore, longer games benefit the basilisk. Basilisks also have roll 2d6 pick highest increasing their number of shots substantially especially if catachan!

 

vs T4 targets they are about the same though the extra AP will make basilisks better at marine hunting

vs T5 targets manticore has the edge since wounding on 2s

vs T7 targets they are about the same though the extra AP will make the basilisks better

vs T8 targets they are about the same though the extra AP will make the basilisks better

 

So very broadly the basilisk will probably be better in most situations though both are about the same. **If the manticore is rolling 10+ consistently (catachan/CP) then it will win out due to number of shots but this is not as likely. It has a much higher variance in number of shots while the basilisk is pretty consistent but just a lower max

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think that the primary selling point of the Basilisk over the manticore is how you can get them into your lists. Basilisks come in squadrons, where manticores do not. In an armored Battalion, given 6 Leman Russ Tanks, you can get more basilisks into the list than you can manticores (3 times as many actually). 

 

Granted You can use more than one detachment, etc... But my point is that working within limited confines of Force org charts, you can get more basilisks than manticores. 

 

I have used both, and I feel that each has a use, and Manticores are more useful against tough infantry (termies, 'gryns, etc...) due to the higher shot output, where the basilisk is more useful as a large multi-wound model killer. 

 

YMMV, but Given how much anti-infantry shooting you can get, I think the Basilisk is the better choice. 

[librisrouge]

I'm a big fan of the manticore. Basilisks are great. Please, don't get me wrong, but 2d6 shots, especially with the Catachan trait, is just great. The few times I've rolled 12 shots, and the look it causes on peoples' faces, is great.

[Bmseifer]

I see alot of arguments here that the manticore is deemed better because its higher number of shots. Well I cannot compare the two units in a vacuum, thats why I included the cost/shot in my initial post. Sure the Manticore has on average 48% more shots on a given turn but it's also priced at 35% more meaning the difference in output is not as big as people make it out to be.

 

Mind though, this is on average. If the AM player rolls box cars all day long, then the manticore could potentially have 100% more output than the basilisk.

 

And regarding the doctrines, they help both units almost equally. Catachan might do more for the manticore, my math-fu isn't strong enough to calculate this :)

 

My biggest gripe really, is that the units are to similiar. 

[CrusherJoe]

I like having both in my lists.

 

Aerial Spotter for the basi, wound, then Overlapping Fields of Fire with the Manti next (followed by everything else, if it's not dead by then...which...it usually is).

[Withershadow]

I like the swing potential of the Manticore over the slow and steady consistency of the Earthshakers. Both are good though.

[domsto]

I think the Basilisk is also easier to buff as the Manticore.

Stratagem and MoO

The Manticore only shines when is played as Catachan.

I allways wanted to play mine but the latest Price increase in the Chapter Approved killed him for me.

[duz_]

Personally I've more or less dropped my Manticore from my list particulary with the points increase

I like the old reliable Basilisks especially for their points and not being limited to being useful for 4 rounds 

[Gibbous]

I ran some numbers, comparing the two through mathhammer8th.

 

The Basilisk does more damage in all scenarios (I ran T5 5+ all the way to T8 2+) except the following:

 

Against T5 Models

Or T5-T8 with 5+ save.  

 

Which is fine assuming that your Basilisks make it to turn 6 unscathed. 

 

Let's assume the Basilisks don't make it to turn 6, but only to turn 4 like the Manticore. The Manticore outperforms the Basilisk Hands down! Average 3-7 Wounds higher (T5-T8).

 

Max Manticore: 3 

PL: 24

Points: 429

 

Max Basilisk (Equivalent): 4

PL: 28

Points: 432

 

According to mathhammer The most damage a Manticore or Basilisk should put out against a T5 5+, Multiplied by the above:

 

M: 23.2 * 3 = 69.6

B: 18 * 4 = 72

 

Then, T8 2+:

 

M: 9.2 * 3 = 27.6

B: 11.4 * 4 = 45.6

 

In My opinion, the Basilisks are more versatile vs their cost. They are pretty equal most of the way, but the Basilisk edges out the manticore at about T6 4+ and tougher. 

[Bmseifer]

Ok since I kinda like math, let's compare the two units and their strength, looking at their offensive output relative to their cost

 

First of all, lets set their cost to 100 and 135 pts, disregarding the stock heavy bolter. In fact, I would say the h.bolter is even more efficient on the basilisk since its on a cheaper platform but lets keep it out of the equation for now.

 

Second of all, lets compare one round of shooting, disregarding the manticores limit of shooting 4 times only.

 

Third, lets assume average number of shots, disregarding any doctrine.

 

Fourth, no invulnerable save taken into account.

 

I made the calcs for the scenarios that are pretty normal targets: T5 3+, T4 2+ and T7 3+. My calcs are based on average number of shot, to wound rolls, failed saves and compared to the units cost, thus getting a value for point cost for damage inflicted. And when I say damage I mean unsaved wound which would result in you rolling a D3.

 

Versus T5 3+ the results are as follows

Basilisk costs 80,5pts per damage inflicted

Manticore 69,4pts per damage

Conclusion: Manticore is more effective

 

Versus T4 2+

Basilisk costs 80,5pts per damage inflicted

Manticore 92,6pts per damage

Conclusion: Basilisk is more effective

 

Versus T7 3+

Basilisk costs 80,5pts per damage inflicted

Manticore 86,8pts per damage

Conclusion: Basilisk is more effective

 

If one would start targeting T4 5+ models, the manticore wins out but as soon as their save goes to a 4+ the basilisk becomes more pts efficient.

 

Final conclusion then: The manticore outperforms the basilisk when going after T5 targets and in the odd case you want to go after guardsmen with it. In all other scenarios the basilisk will inflict more damage per point spent.

[Diagramdude]

I think a simple thought exercise is would you rather have three manticores (429 pts) or four basilisks (432 pts)?

 

Personally I'll take a mix of both.

[Withershadow]

Some of this math seems a bit off.  Assuming average 4 shots on basilisk (due to rolling 2 dice and picking highest), and 7 on manticore:

 

vs T5 Sv3+ (plague marines) the basilisk gets 1.1 unsaved wounds through (before damage roll).

vs T4 Sv3+ (regular marines) it does 1.38. 

Manticore does 1.92 against either. 

 

vs T4 2+ (terminators) it's 1.1 Basilisk vs. 1.2 Manticore.

vs T5 2+ (custodes) it's .87 Basilisk vs. 1.45 (except the Custodes have an invuln that drops the Basilisk's damage to 0.66.

 

vs T7/8 3+ (vehicles), it's 1.1 again, vs 1.52.

 

So regardless of these targets, the Manticore is always edging out in damage, from 10% more against terminators (worst case), to 38-39% more against Space Marines and vehicles, to 120% more vs Custodes (best case).  It costs 35% more, so those numbers are favorable.

 

The 4 turns of shooting limit is largely irrelevant in my opinion, the game should be decided by then where it doesn't matter.

 

And, of course, this is simply looking at the mean result.  In actual games, you will have swings up and down, and the potential up swing of a Manticore can have you shooting 12 times instead of 6. 

 

So both are very good options, but this premise that the Manticore is somehow worthless or inefficient after the point hike is objectively false.  It got a hike because it was way too cheap before.  The front-loaded damage with Lost Relic of Cadia and intersecting lines of fire was wiping out Primarchs in one shooting phase.  I don't want to hurt a big target and hope to have a chance to finish it off later, I want to kill it NOW.

[Harrowmaster]

I've only got a basilisk right now and when the dice go your way it is brutal, I also want to get a manitcore though, mainly cause rocket artillery is cool. 

[Bmseifer]

Some of this math seems a bit off.  Assuming average 4 shots on basilisk (due to rolling 2 dice and picking highest), and 7 on manticore:

 

vs T5 Sv3+ (plague marines) the basilisk gets 1.1 unsaved wounds through (before damage roll).

vs T4 Sv3+ (regular marines) it does 1.38. 

Manticore does 1.92 against either. 

 

vs T4 2+ (terminators) it's 1.1 Basilisk vs. 1.2 Manticore.

vs T5 2+ (custodes) it's .87 Basilisk vs. 1.45 (except the Custodes have an invuln that drops the Basilisk's damage to 0.66.

 

vs T7/8 3+ (vehicles), it's 1.1 again, vs 1.52.

 

So regardless of these targets, the Manticore is always edging out in damage, from 10% more against terminators (worst case), to 38-39% more against Space Marines and vehicles, to 120% more vs Custodes (best case).  It costs 35% more, so those numbers are favorable.

 

The 4 turns of shooting limit is largely irrelevant in my opinion, the game should be decided by then where it doesn't matter.

 

And, of course, this is simply looking at the mean result.  In actual games, you will have swings up and down, and the potential up swing of a Manticore can have you shooting 12 times instead of 6. 

 

So both are very good options, but this premise that the Manticore is somehow worthless or inefficient after the point hike is objectively false.  It got a hike because it was way too cheap before.  The front-loaded damage with Lost Relic of Cadia and intersecting lines of fire was wiping out Primarchs in one shooting phase.  I don't want to hurt a big target and hope to have a chance to finish it off later, I want to kill it NOW.

 

I'm pretty sure my math is entirely correct. 

 

You are comparing unit vs unit which is kind of skewed as they have different costs.

 

In the T5 3+ scenario the basilisk actually inflicts 1,24 dmg (its average number if shots is 4,47)

So if we only compare the units straight up, the manticore inflicts more damage. But if we consider the units real effectiveness (damage output relative to unit cost) the basilisk has an edge in most cases

[Tirak]

The Average of 2d6 take the highest is actually 4.47. A lot of you are underselling the basilisk by assuming 4.

 

On a similar note the average of the Catachan reroll assuming you only reroll 3s and lower is 4.25

[Diagramdude]

The Catachan reroll average is worse than the 2d6 pick the highest? Explain... the catachan reroll is purely beneficial bc you only reroll the worse 2d6.