Manticore vs basilisk

[Withershadow]

 

In the T5 3+ scenario the basilisk actually inflicts 1,24 dmg (its average number if shots is 4,47)

So if we only compare the units straight up, the manticore inflicts more damage. But if we consider the units real effectiveness (damage output relative to unit cost) the basilisk has an edge in most cases

Okay, even with that number, the Manticore still front-loads 55% more damage while costing 35% more.  I don't care about 6-round point effectiveness, I care about immediate results.  Because I am not running a year-long siege, I am playing a 2 hour game that I intend to win. 

 

So in the final analysis, both are good and depend on how many points you got.

 

Have ~500 points? Take 2 of each.

Have a bit less (467)? Take a manticore and 3 basilisks.

Have less still (394)? Take 2 manticores and a basilisk.

359? Manticore and 2 basilisks.

251? One of each.

 

Etc. etc.

 

Both are solid choices. The end.

[Bmseifer]

I never took the limited number of shots from the manticore into the calculations. All my math is about one round of shooting. The ap of the eartshaker makes it more point efficient than the manticore unless it's T5 or 5+ save or worse.

[Withershadow]

You are incorrect, but this has now become a circular argument that is not worth pursuing further.

[Tyr13]

The Catachan reroll average is worse than the 2d6 pick the highest? Explain... the catachan reroll is purely beneficial bc you only reroll the worse 2d6.

I think the point is, on its own, 2D6 pick the highest is better than the catachan reroll (since youd rarely want to reroll a 4 or higher). The combination is obviously better still.

[Halfpint100]

Random point, but the manticore is much easier to store and transport. that earthshaker is a pain! so glad i got custom foam for it

[Bmseifer]

You are incorrect, but this has now become a circular argument that is not worth pursuing further.

 

I will pm you with my math so you can tell me where I'm wrong

[Tirak]

The Catachan reroll average is worse than the 2d6 pick the highest? Explain... the catachan reroll is purely beneficial bc you only reroll the worse 2d6.

I'm not speaking in relation to the Basilisk, rather to the reroll as a whole, which is why it was an aside. It's most prominently seen it Catachan BCs.

[lash144]

Hey guys,

 

I didn't want to start a new thread, because my question is quite similar. So I mainly play Mechanicus, but want to add some Guard elements for cheap bodies and indirect fire.

What artillery do you find usefull in general? I made some good experiences with mortars and Basilisks. Is there something else?

[Halfpint100]

Hey guys,

 

I didn't want to start a new thread, because my question is quite similar. So I mainly play Mechanicus, but want to add some Guard elements for cheap bodies and indirect fire.

What artillery do you find usefull in general? I made some good experiences with mortars and Basilisks. Is there something else?

Mortars and basilisks are the most cost effective guard indirect fire. Manticores and forge world add others. But are not as cost effective.

[Wassa]

Where do the new points values leave this debate?

 

I’ve always preferred the Manticore against big things. 2D6 vs highest of 2x D6. I find against big creatures or vehicles the AP doesn’t matter much as you normally run into the invuln save anyway. I also find people tend to prioritize taking out a manticore over a Leman Russ.

 

Though against 5 marines the AP if the basilisk is quite handy.

[HallofStovokor]

That's a good point. I still think that the basilisk is better for one reason. By round 5 the manticore has no more shots. Limitations in number of rounds makes it questionable. At the price reduction it does make it more viable.

[Tokugawa]

Manticore receives points reduct, yes; but Basilisk receives new detachement ability, include officer aura to ignore cover saves for artillery. The balance still incline to Basilisk.

[Trickstick]

Basilisk can use Aerial Spotter stratagem, which is really nice. Especially if you combine it with the two shot stratagem from Wrath.

[Emicus]

That's a good point. I still think that the basilisk is better for one reason. By round 5 the manticore has no more shots. Limitations in number of rounds makes it questionable. At the price reduction it does make it more viable.

And conversely if both a manticore and basilisk die t2, cause let's face it your opponent will want your artillery dead, the front loaded damage of the manticore puts it way ahead!

[mertbl]

I usually bring a manticore every game. I also usually end up wondering why and regretting it every game. Never seems to pay off like my basilisks. Maybe if I brought 2 like I do basilisks?

[Wassa]

It all depends on how many attacks it gets to have which is why I usually run it as Catachan.

[Rommel44]

Like the Manticore but it's starting to look more and more that the Basilisk is the more effective artillery piece going forward. Being able to take 3x as a single Heavy Support choice is the big selling point for me personally.

[bigmic66]

I run both. Manticores gotta be catachan though imo

[HallofStovokor]

I run both. Manticores gotta be catachan though imo

I would say that catachan and cadian are the best regiments for artillery. Catachans can reroll number of shots and cadians get an automatic reroll of 1s to hit so long as they stay put. Both traits are amazing, however I tend to like rerolling 1s to hit better. That being said, a master of ordinance or Harker can give those rerolls to the artillery, they just cost extra points for the models

[Wassa]

I don’t know, rerolling 1s sounds a lot better than it is.

 

1/6 chance of a 1 and 1/2 chance of hitting means it changes 1/12 rolls. I’d rather reroll the number of attacks when you roll a dud 1 or 2.

[Gothical]

For maximising the artillery Catachan is a must - it makes Manticores quite bonkers (the original reason for the CA 2017 price increase was Catachan Manticores flattening Magnus and Mortarion). Now the price has dropped again they become an appealing option. Basilisks are extremely strong too, but as the two prime targets have Invulnerable Saves the AP difference is irrelevant and the higher strength is more important (and only 4 shots doesn't matter since they will be prime targets).

 

However, Cadian is still extremely useful if you want to slot it in without taking a different detachment, especially if you are targeting something tagged with their unique Stratagem since you get +1 To Hit re-rolling 1s and can use a Command Re-roll stratagem on the number of shots. Eats a few CP it is true, but can be worth it to get damage on a big nasty and Guard can generate a heck of a lot of CP. 

[bigmic66]

I run Chan brigade with Bessie and two manticores and harker. All inf squads have mortars. Then in a separate detach I have creed, 3x3 mortars and 2 wyrverns. This is my *nuke hordes* detach for Ofof. Last detach is a castellan.

 

15 mortars and 5 pieces of arty. Nowhere to hide