Pri (-maris) or not to Pri (-maris): that is the question!

[Lemondish]

 

 

might take a while before players unlock the right combinations and understand that it is a shooting army

 

That's something a fair few of Astartes players still need to absorb.  Marines are fluffed to be unkillable monsters in melee but the reality on the table is they die easily in that format and simply don't have the output to make up their cost.  Shooting is pound for pound more efficient and less dangerous for them, and DW in particular need to wipe out units quickly making the shooting phase (where SIA, Frag Cannons and other fringe benefits are most powerful) their pivotal play.  Don't get me wrong, I love a good brawl as much as any gritty veteran but the reality simply doesn't play out on the table.

 

 

that is the impression i'm getting from this army. when you shoot something, it MUST be dead to justify the points cost compared to lets say the dark angels who have more units to do this and are a little cheaper in cost. so perhaps maybe at least three twin asscan razorbacks to support teleported primaris squads?

 

 

I feel like the Primaris aren't the best use of the teleport strat since they're so much better at being an anchor for your glass cannon troops whose specialized weapons can output far more damage. Saves you from bringing the Razorbacks just to keep them alive if they don't need them for delivery. Just my personal take. 

[6262]

I feel like an insane squad of 4 SB + Per Swd Termies, a vanguard vet with twin pistols, and 5 SB + SS vets would be great especially with a captain with a jump pack or terminator armor to lend support to the squad

[Lemondish]

One thing I noticed - and this kind of sucks - but the auxiliary grenade launcher says "For every 5 Intercessors..."

 

This is different from C:SM where it says "For every 5 models..."

 

If you take a Sergeant, he is a different model and a different statline than the Intercessors themselves, so a starting squad of a Sgt. and 4 Intercessors can't take the grenade launcher. You need a 6 man squad of Intercessors to take them now, RAW. 

 

I think the intent was to avoid a 10 man mixed unit from taking 2 grenade launchers - though if you ask me that honestly isn't all that powerful so they should have honestly followed the same wording...

[Kisada]

An intercessor Sergeant is still an intercessor ...

[Lemondish]

An intercessor Sergeant is still an intercessor ...

 

He actually isn't - he has his own entry on the data sheet and has wargear rules specific only to him both with the separate call out for swapping the bolt rifle and for his options for taking a power sword/chainsword. The unit datasheet specifically says it includes 4 Intercessors and 1 Intercessor Sergeant, calling him out as separate yet again. It's like saying a Black Shield is a Veteran, and therefore can take any options Veterans can, when we all know that isn't the case. 

 

With how it is written, the only way to take an auxiliary grenade launcher is to take an additional Intercessor, making the squad makeup 6 models. Likewise, you can never have 2, as you can never have 10 Intercessors in a squad - you can only ever have 1 Intercessor Sgt. and 9 Intercessors. 

 

We all know what the intent is, of course. It's clear they're attempting to limit the ability for a 10 man mixed unit from taking two grenade launchers. How that was worth limiting, I'll never bloody know, but here we are now.

 

I would strongly suggest anybody who can send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com with this question in hopes it is addressed in the FAQ.

[Sloeberjong]

 

An intercessor Sergeant is still an intercessor ...

 

He actually isn't - he has his own entry on the data sheet and has wargear rules specific only to him both with the separate call out for swapping the bolt rifle and for his options for taking a power sword/chainsword. The unit datasheet specifically says it includes 4 Intercessors and 1 Intercessor Sergeant, calling him out as separate yet again. It's like saying a Black Shield is a Veteran, and therefore can take any options Veterans can, when we all know that isn't the case. 

 

With how it is written, the only way to take an auxiliary grenade launcher is to take an additional Intercessor, making the squad makeup 6 models. Likewise, you can never have 2, as you can never have 10 Intercessors in a squad - you can only ever have 1 Intercessor Sgt. and 9 Intercessors. 

 

We all know what the intent is, of course. It's clear they're attempting to limit the ability for a 10 man mixed unit from taking two grenade launchers. How that was worth limiting, I'll never bloody know, but here we are now.

 

I would strongly suggest anybody who can send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com with this question in hopes it is addressed in the FAQ.

 

 

He is though. The entry literally says "Intercessor Sergeant". That would make him an Intercessor.

 

You could take 2, but you can only fire 1 grenade anyway, so you'd benefit only if you combat squad them. Not really worth the effort.

[Moostick]

That's why we as players need some discretion and not take everything in these books as gospel.

 

Edit: I'm saying Lemondish is right on this, but I don't think anyone would really enforce this particular case.

[Lemondish]

 

 

An intercessor Sergeant is still an intercessor ...

 

He actually isn't - he has his own entry on the data sheet and has wargear rules specific only to him both with the separate call out for swapping the bolt rifle and for his options for taking a power sword/chainsword. The unit datasheet specifically says it includes 4 Intercessors and 1 Intercessor Sergeant, calling him out as separate yet again. It's like saying a Black Shield is a Veteran, and therefore can take any options Veterans can, when we all know that isn't the case. 

 

With how it is written, the only way to take an auxiliary grenade launcher is to take an additional Intercessor, making the squad makeup 6 models. Likewise, you can never have 2, as you can never have 10 Intercessors in a squad - you can only ever have 1 Intercessor Sgt. and 9 Intercessors. 

 

We all know what the intent is, of course. It's clear they're attempting to limit the ability for a 10 man mixed unit from taking two grenade launchers. How that was worth limiting, I'll never bloody know, but here we are now.

 

I would strongly suggest anybody who can send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com with this question in hopes it is addressed in the FAQ.

 

 

He is though. The entry literally says "Intercessor Sergeant". That would make him an Intercessor.

 

You could take 2, but you can only fire 1 grenade anyway, so you'd benefit only if you combat squad them. Not really worth the effort.

 

 

He isn't, actually. He's an Intercessor Sergeant. That's distinct from an Intercessor. The same as a Watch Sergeant is distinct from a Veteran. In this case they happen to share a word in the name. 

 

If it weren't, then this statement would be needlessly redundant: "Any Intercessor or Intercessor Sergeant may replace their bolt rifle with an auto bolt rifle...etc."

 

They're different for wargear purposes, statline purposes, and delineated separately in all rules that reference both - except this one. I think it's pretty clear that they're a unique model known as Intercessor Sergeant distinct from Intercessors. But I think it's also unlikely that anybody would ever enforce this requirement as we can all clearly understand what is intended. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be tackled in the FAQ to make sure it's clear - not because we're all literalists in friendly games and can't handle a little nuance, we definitely can. We're all adults after all. But tournaments can't handle that. My suggestion is to write to the FAQ, and then if it isn't mentioned in two weeks then we don't speak of it ever again ;)

 

That's why we as players need some discretion and not take everything in these books as gospel.

 

Well, that's a lovely perspective - but it never holds up in tournaments where RAI are often times ignored for RAW. 

[Moostick]

The joke's on you since no one ever takes DW to tournaments!

 

But yeah, I don't disagree. Anything outside a tournament, I would say you're fine and your opponent would really need to be that guy if he enforces it.

[Ammonius]

I don't see any separate keywords for an "Intercessor Sergeant"

I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face if someone tried to tell me that the words at the top of the datasheet box were somehow independent of the Keywords entry at the bottom of the same box.

On the main topic, I have wanted to play with Primaris models since they came out. After seeing teh leak for Fortis Kill Teams, I knew that Deathwatch was going to be added to my Imperial soup. I'm pretty excited to back up some Primaris with either some Basilisks or some form of the Cawl Wall.

[Vel'Cona]

The joke's on you since no one ever takes DW to tournaments!

 

That's about to change, I'd wager.

[Lemondish]

I don't see any separate keywords for an "Intercessor Sergeant"

I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face if someone tried to tell me that the words at the top of the datasheet box were somehow independent of the Keywords entry at the bottom of the same box.

On the main topic, I have wanted to play with Primaris models since they came out. After seeing teh leak for Fortis Kill Teams, I knew that Deathwatch was going to be added to my Imperial soup. I'm pretty excited to back up some Primaris with either some Basilisks or some form of the Cawl Wall.

This is the same for Veterans as well, and I think you and I both know it's a hard sell to argue that a Black Shield, a Biker, a Terminator, or a Watch Sergeant, despite each being a Veteran per the unit keyword, could all take a HTH or a heavy weapon. So I am telling you that the words at the top of the datasheet are independent, and always have been. Not sure what else to say, honestly. Those limitations we accept without question ALREADY. Not sure why it's so hard to accept this as it is literally no different than any other data sheet in 8th, or in our own codex. Clearly the unit keywords are and have always been separate and are used for a completely different purpose.

What we can both agree on is it is almost guaranteed to be unintentional and that your friendly games will not at all be affected by it. Still should be addressed in an FAQ, so get those questions in! Doesn't hurt anybody, or anything, whatsoever to send them in. Not sure why I'm sensing so much resistance to that...

Back to the topic at hand, though: despite it costing almost 300 points, I ran an Intercessor squad with auto bolt rifles, matched with 4 Aggressors and an Inceptor with bolters. This unit put in WORK. They were a screen clearing nightmare for my opponent and were super durable. She was playing chaos with a boatload of cultists. Was able to punch a hole so heavily into the screen that she couldn't replenish it well enough so my deep striking Vets had amazing options for landing. Managed to advance into cover, and sat there for 3 whole turns just blasting away.

[seriade]

I don't see any separate keywords for an "Intercessor Sergeant"

I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face if someone tried to tell me that the words at the top of the datasheet box were somehow independent of the Keywords entry at the bottom of the same box.

On the main topic, I have wanted to play with Primaris models since they came out. After seeing teh leak for Fortis Kill Teams, I knew that Deathwatch was going to be added to my Imperial soup. I'm pretty excited to back up some Primaris with either some Basilisks or some form of the Cawl Wall.

This is the same for Veterans as well, and I think you and I both know it's a hard sell to argue that a Black Shield, a Biker, a Terminator, or a Watch Sergeant, despite each being a Veteran per the unit keyword, could all take a HTH or a heavy weapon. So I am telling you that the words at the top of the datasheet are independent, and always have been. Not sure what else to say, honestly. Those limitations we accept without question ALREADY. Not sure why it's so hard to accept this as it is literally no different than any other data sheet in 8th, or in our own codex. Clearly the unit keywords are and have always been separate and are used for a completely different purpose.

What we can both agree on is it is almost guaranteed to be unintentional and that your friendly games will not at all be affected by it. Still should be addressed in an FAQ, so get those questions in! Doesn't hurt anybody, or anything, whatsoever to send them in. Not sure why I'm sensing so much resistance to that...

Back to the topic at hand, though: despite it costing almost 300 points, I ran an Intercessor squad with auto bolt rifles, matched with 4 Aggressors and an Inceptor with bolters. This unit put in WORK. They were a screen clearing nightmare for my opponent and were super durable. She was playing chaos with a boatload of cultists. Was able to punch a hole so heavily into the screen that she couldn't replenish it well enough so my deep striking Vets had amazing options for landing. Managed to advance into cover, and sat there for 3 whole turns just blasting away.

Did you deepstrike them or did they move up on foot?

[Lemondish]

I don't see any separate keywords for an "Intercessor Sergeant"

I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face if someone tried to tell me that the words at the top of the datasheet box were somehow independent of the Keywords entry at the bottom of the same box.

On the main topic, I have wanted to play with Primaris models since they came out. After seeing teh leak for Fortis Kill Teams, I knew that Deathwatch was going to be added to my Imperial soup. I'm pretty excited to back up some Primaris with either some Basilisks or some form of the Cawl Wall.

This is the same for Veterans as well, and I think you and I both know it's a hard sell to argue that a Black Shield, a Biker, a Terminator, or a Watch Sergeant, despite each being a Veteran per the unit keyword, could all take a HTH or a heavy weapon. So I am telling you that the words at the top of the datasheet are independent, and always have been. Not sure what else to say, honestly. Those limitations we accept without question ALREADY. Not sure why it's so hard to accept this as it is literally no different than any other data sheet in 8th, or in our own codex. Clearly the unit keywords are and have always been separate and are used for a completely different purpose.

What we can both agree on is it is almost guaranteed to be unintentional and that your friendly games will not at all be affected by it. Still should be addressed in an FAQ, so get those questions in! Doesn't hurt anybody, or anything, whatsoever to send them in. Not sure why I'm sensing so much resistance to that...

Back to the topic at hand, though: despite it costing almost 300 points, I ran an Intercessor squad with auto bolt rifles, matched with 4 Aggressors and an Inceptor with bolters. This unit put in WORK. They were a screen clearing nightmare for my opponent and were super durable. She was playing chaos with a boatload of cultists. Was able to punch a hole so heavily into the screen that she couldn't replenish it well enough so my deep striking Vets had amazing options for landing. Managed to advance into cover, and sat there for 3 whole turns just blasting away.

Did you deepstrike them or did they move up on foot?

The Primaris were deployed normally to act as an anchor unit to clear screens, take fire for a couple turns, hold their position and deny deep strike, and just be a thorn in the side of the enemy. They were running with a Primaris Watch Captain with banebolts and a MC autobolter. I got hot on my advance roll so I had to advance him as well to keep the buff, which wasn't so bad - still hits on 3s after all. They ended up being MVP, but not all games will end that way - this particular opponent just had a knack of surrounding my old Blood Ravens marines too quickly and taking too much of the board for me to drop in anywhere to be effective.

The Vets deep struck in. I only have 2 dreads in my collection unfortunately (and my opponent was nice enough to let me use them - they aren't DW colours at the moment lol). I wanted them on the board with the Intercessors, otherwise I would have dropped one with the Vets as well.

[seriade]

 

The Primaris were deployed normally to act as an anchor unit to clear screens, take fire for a couple turns, hold their position and deny deep strike, and just be a thorn in the side of the enemy. They were running with a Primaris Watch Captain with banebolts and a MC autobolter. I got hot on my advance roll so I had to advance him as well to keep the buff, which wasn't so bad - still hits on 3s after all. They ended up being MVP, but not all games will end that way - this particular opponent just had a knack of surrounding my old Blood Ravens marines too quickly and taking too much of the board for me to drop in anywhere to be effective. 

 

The Vets deep struck in. I only have 2 dreads in my collection unfortunately (and my opponent was nice enough to let me use them - they aren't DW colours at the moment lol). I wanted them on the board with the Intercessors, otherwise I would have dropped one with the Vets as well. 

 

What was your overall list if I may ask as i have been debating a bunch of stuff and am looking to see what others have been doing?

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

The Primaris were deployed normally to act as an anchor unit to clear screens, take fire for a couple turns, hold their position and deny deep strike, and just be a thorn in the side of the enemy. They were running with a Primaris Watch Captain with banebolts and a MC autobolter. I got hot on my advance roll so I had to advance him as well to keep the buff, which wasn't so bad - still hits on 3s after all. They ended up being MVP, but not all games will end that way - this particular opponent just had a knack of surrounding my old Blood Ravens marines too quickly and taking too much of the board for me to drop in anywhere to be effective.

 

The Vets deep struck in. I only have 2 dreads in my collection unfortunately (and my opponent was nice enough to let me use them - they aren't DW colours at the moment lol). I wanted them on the board with the Intercessors, otherwise I would have dropped one with the Vets as well.

 

What was your overall list if I may ask as i have been debating a bunch of stuff and am looking to see what others have been doing?

Will get that to you once I'm not on mobile lol

[Ammonius]

I don't see any separate keywords for an "Intercessor Sergeant"

I'd have a hard time keeping a straight face if someone tried to tell me that the words at the top of the datasheet box were somehow independent of the Keywords entry at the bottom of the same box.

On the main topic, I have wanted to play with Primaris models since they came out. After seeing teh leak for Fortis Kill Teams, I knew that Deathwatch was going to be added to my Imperial soup. I'm pretty excited to back up some Primaris with either some Basilisks or some form of the Cawl Wall.

This is the same for Veterans as well, and I think you and I both know it's a hard sell to argue that a Black Shield, a Biker, a Terminator, or a Watch Sergeant, despite each being a Veteran per the unit keyword, could all take a HTH or a heavy weapon. So I am telling you that the words at the top of the datasheet are independent, and always have been. Not sure what else to say, honestly. Those limitations we accept without question ALREADY. Not sure why it's so hard to accept this as it is literally no different than any other data sheet in 8th, or in our own codex. Clearly the unit keywords are and have always been separate and are used for a completely different purpose.

What we can both agree on is it is almost guaranteed to be unintentional and that your friendly games will not at all be affected by it. Still should be addressed in an FAQ, so get those questions in! Doesn't hurt anybody, or anything, whatsoever to send them in. Not sure why I'm sensing so much resistance to that...*snip*

Aha. I see what you're saying and now agree.

[Moostick]

If words want us to refer to <Keywords>, they are generally bolded, so there's further support for it.

[seriade]

with regards to the grenade launcher thing the base intercessor sergeant is the same way he has a different profile is there a wording difference between the marine book and deathwatch?

[ashc]

Models in the marine codex vs. Intercessors in the dw codex. Designed to limit GL's by adding the exotic unit members no doubt but I think it's inadvertently caused an issue because according to precedence an intercessor sergeant is not an intercessor RAW just like a blackshield is not a veteran so can't have a HTH.

[Lemondish]

with regards to the grenade launcher thing the base intercessor sergeant is the same way he has a different profile is there a wording difference between the marine book and deathwatch?

 

Yeah, the marine book says "For every 5 models..."

 

The Deathwatch book says "For every 5 Intercessors..."

 

Models in the marine codex vs. Intercessors in the dw codex. Designed to limit GL's by adding the exotic unit members no doubt but I think it's inadvertently caused an issue because according to precedence an intercessor sergeant is not an intercessor RAW just like a blackshield is not a veteran so can't have a HTH.

 

Exactly what I'm thinking as well. Not entirely sure why that was an issue - already can't use two grenade launchers a turn on the same unit. 

[ashc]

 

 

with regards to the grenade launcher thing the base intercessor sergeant is the same way he has a different profile is there a wording difference between the marine book and deathwatch?

Yeah, the marine book says "For every 5 models..."

 

The Deathwatch book says "For every 5 Intercessors..."

Models in the marine codex vs. Intercessors in the dw codex. Designed to limit GL's by adding the exotic unit members no doubt but I think it's inadvertently caused an issue because according to precedence an intercessor sergeant is not an intercessor RAW just like a blackshield is not a veteran so can't have a HTH.

Exactly what I'm thinking as well. Not entirely sure why that was an issue - already can't use two grenade launchers a turn on the same unit.

Quite, combat-squadding or an unfortunate death of the GL holder seems to be the only reason to do it.